Russia expels 23 British diplomats as crisis over nerve toxin attack deepens

[dick dasterdly]

It doesn't really matter as it's all a 'game' - with opposing govts. playing 'tit for tat' -  encouraging the more gullible/patriotic to rally in support of their country.....

 

The Russian govt. deciding to expel the same number of diplomats as the Brit. govt, proves this to be the case - but most will still get 'worked up' and 'patriotic' over things like this.....

 

Which suits the govts. involved perfectly......

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I kind of think Iraq's invasion of Kuwait had more to do with it.

 

The ethnic cleansing campaign that took place throughout areas controlled by the Bosnian Serbs targeted Muslim Bosniaks and Bosnian Croats. The ethnic cleansing campaign included unlawful confinement, murder, rape, sexual assault, torture, beating, robbery, and inhumane treatment of civilians; the targeting of political leaders, intellectuals, and professionals; the unlawful deportation and transfer of civilians; the unlawful shelling of civilians; the unlawful appropriation and plunder of real and personal property; the destruction of homes and businesses; and the destruction of places of worship.^[10]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_genocide

 

The invasion was the precursor and was not in doubt, but this was a regional dispute between 2 neighbours. Is the west to be the policemen of the world?

The 14 yo daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the US standing up at the UN, tearfully describing how she personally witnessed Iraqi soldiers throw babies from incubators was intended to sway public opinion. Of course, as it turned out, she was in the US at the time of the invasion, but then, public opinion was sufficiently swayed as to allow the west to go in and secure its oil fields and ensure that oil continued to trade in USD.

 

As for Serbia, another regional conflict that saw heinous attrocities perpetrated by both sides; a complicated situation, but certainly not good versus evil as was depicted.

 

7 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

This is how you want to make your case?

I have no case other than to say that if we ignore the lessons of the past we will repeat the mistakes of the past.

[evadgib]

Interesting and plausible...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43446312

[Guest]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

Interesting and plausible...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43446312

Not really. That's just the typical way for the Russian elites to response. Never take the responsibility of their actions. 

 

Once again the Russian people will suffer because Team Putin acts with impunity. 

[evadgib]

12 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Not really. That's just the typical way for the Russian elites to response. Never take the responsibility of their actions. 

 

Once again the Russian people will suffer because Team Putin acts with impunity. 

Agreed. Closing the consulate in St Petersberg and booting out the British council hurts ordinary Russians far more than it hurts anyone in UK.

[dunroaming]

4 hours ago, SouthernDelight said:

You may be on to something here. Though not a TV (news) person myself, I understand BBC is in a downward spiral for quite some time.

Well Fox news have always been in the gutter so there is no downward spiral for them.  As for the BBC, it may be biased to a degree but it is still head and shoulders better than most.  And I am a TV (news) person and I also read a wide range of newspapers of different flavours.  Anyone relying on one news source is never going to get a balanced view on anything.

 

Better to just read Thai Visa where we are all totally unbiased in absolutely everything 

[Mansell]

Those who do not believe that Putin had anything to do with this are entitled to their opinions. But Putin used to be the head of the KGB, and anybody who thinks he has changed his spots is sniffing the wrong thing. If it looks like a Pig, smells like a Pig, and grunts like a Pig, then in my playbook it is a Pig......and remember he has warned that anybody who betrays Mother Russia  will be terminated. The old way was to tie them to a gurney with wire and feed them slowly feet first into an oven while still alive......seems like he is a fan of Hitler and his mad dogs.

[Mansell]

Those who do not believe that Putin had anything to do with this are entitled to their opinions. But Putin used to be the head of the KGB, and anybody who thinks he has changed his spots is sniffing the wrong thing. If it looks like a Pig, smells like a Pig, and grunts like a Pig, then in my playbook it is a Pig......and remember he has warned that anybody who betrays Mother Russia  will be terminated. The old way was to tie them to a gurney with wire and feed them slowly feet first into an oven while still alive......seems like he is a fan of Hitler and his mad dogs.

[dunroaming]

2 hours ago, evadgib said:

Agreed. Closing the consulate in St Petersberg and booting out the British council hurts ordinary Russians far more than it hurts anyone in UK.

It is always down to tit for tat.  As a tit man I rarely favour the tat!

[Basil B]

2 hours ago, evadgib said:

Agreed. Closing the consulate in St Petersberg and booting out the British council hurts ordinary Russians far more than it hurts anyone in UK.

We should cut all ties with Russia, kick out all Russian diplomats, close down RT, kick out all Russian journalists, make visas only available to Russian dissidents.

 

Maybe we have not yet got compelling evidence, but I am sure Putin is behind it and we did not punish him hard enough last time, the reason Putin wants the evidence is to work out how advanced our intelligence agencies are...

[dunroaming]

23 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Maybe we have not yet got compelling evidence, but I am sure Putin is behind it and we did not punish him hard enough last time, the reason Putin wants the evidence is to work out how advanced our intelligence agencies are...

It's interesting how the word "punishing" is used in this context.  Are we punishing him?  In which case by retaliating tit for tat then he is, in return "punishing" us.  In real terms there is not actually anything we can do to "punish" him at all. And vise versa. 

[buick]

27 minutes ago, Basil B said:

We should cut all ties with Russia, kick out all Russian diplomats, close down RT, kick out all Russian journalists, make visas only available to Russian dissidents.

does this suggestion include blocking the import of russian oil and gas ?  that is really the only thing that will have any impact on russia (and even then, they may get by just fine).

 

 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, buick said:

does this suggestion include blocking the import of russian oil and gas ?  that is really the only thing that will have any impact on russia (and even then, they may get by just fine).

 

 

They will also need to find a new, equally willing partner in their money laundering efforts - but on the positive side, house prices in the south east will drop significantly.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, buick said:

does this suggestion include blocking the import of russian oil and gas ?  that is really the only thing that will have any impact on russia (and even then, they may get by just fine).

Hopefully that will happen someday. War in Syria is blocking that possibility at the moment. 

 

Europe would do much better if we weren't dependant of the gas and oil from Russia. Someday.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, oilinki said:

Hopefully that will happen someday. War in Syria is blocking that possibility at the moment. 

 

Europe would do much better if we weren't dependant of the gas and oil from Russia. Someday.

There are suggestions that the war is Syria is mainly to prevent that possibility.

[evadgib]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/investigators-from-chemical-weapons-watchdog-to-arrive-in-uk

[khunken]

I am a sceptic of finger-pointing whether it is from the US or UK, the worst two perpetrators. I am open to facts that prove that Putin, Russia, rogue agents or anyone else is the guilty party. We have yet to see any proof and if this was in a courtroom, the case would be so flimsy & thrown out,  that the prosecutors would have to pay all costs.

 

As a side issue, here is the Economist's assessment of the worst parties in the assassination game:

https://www.economist.com/news/international/21738876-they-have-produced-new-legal-justifications-well-states-are-finding-new-ways-killing?cid1=cust/ednew/n/bl/n/20180315n/owned/n/n/nwl/n/n/ap/106184/n&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Editors_Picks&utm_term=20180315

 

Edited March 18, 2018 by khunken

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

There are suggestions that the war is Syria is mainly to prevent that possibility.

On personal level, consumers are able boycott the Russian oil companies, like Lukoil.

They operate with a brand Teboil in Finland, which will be put to avoidance list. I wonder which companies are working in UK and other European countries.

 

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, lanista said:

Since when is asking for the facts delusional?

 

Have you seen RT  TV?.  Do you even know what it is? 

Don't be so ridiculous. Of course I know RT. It is indeed the Russian state mouthpiece. What ever your silly opinions of the BBC is, it has a legal obligation to show balance. As it is regularly accused by all sides in politics as favouring their presumed opponents they must be doing a good job.

 

CNN? Never heard of them. 

[buick]

7 minutes ago, khunken said:

I am a sceptic of finger-pointing whether it is from the US or UK, the worst two perpetrators.

exactly.  this is similar to the USA complaining about russian interference in the recent election.  oh, let's see, what nation has interferred in the most elections over the last 50 years (i think we know the answer, USA !!).  i think murders via UK and USA intelligence have decreased significanly in recent times but not enough time has passed for those two nations to cry foul when such occurs on their home turf (or takes out one of their spys).

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, oilinki said:

On personal level, consumers are able boycott the Russian oil companies, like Lukoil.

They operate with a brand Teboil in Finland, which will be put to avoidance list. I wonder which companies are working in UK and other European countries.

 

Is Teboil a gasoline station? I don't know how closed-loop Lukoil's upstream and downstream businesses are but the reality with companies such as Shell, Exxon etc, is that the product you buy on the forecourt cannot be said with any assurance to have come from that company's production facilities. Crude is bought and sold multiple times between wellhead and refinery so it is entirely feasible that the Shell gasoline with which you fill your car was actually produced by a competitor.

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

According to the Russians, all chemical weapons research labs under the UN have samples. According to post #10 by Southern Delight, Iran has made the stuff too.

 

Re: Litvinenko, I am not sceptical there; enough evidence was provided to lead back to, if not Putin, definitely his cronies. But I am reluctant to get out my pirchfork so readily, not at least until there is something tangible presented by the government.

 

Maybe you missed my previous on this. No chemical process is 100% perfect, not even Famous Grouse

 

Manufacturing processes leave a "foot print". Use GLC or similar to detect precursor and catalyst residues and look for isomer balance.

 

The Porton Down people are not going to reveal everything. I would say the evidence is compelling enough for sanctions if not send a man to the gallows

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

29 minutes ago, khunken said:

As a side issue, here is the Economist's assessment of the worst parties in the assassination game:

https://www.economist.com/news/international/21738876-they-have-produced-new-legal-justifications-well-states-are-finding-new-ways-killing?cid1=cust/ednew/n/bl/n/20180315n/owned/n/n/nwl/n/n/ap/106184/n&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Editors_Picks&utm_term=20180315

 

 

Perhaps this is the reason a lot of opinion thinks Putin and Russia are responsible for this, apart from Russia having developed the nerve agent that was used in this assassination.

 

Quote

If Mrs May is right, the attack in Salisbury would join the list of attempts by the Russian state under Vladimir Putin to kill its enemies. On his own turf journalists, politicians and businessmen have been murdered. But the assassination of enemies on the soil of other countries is more audacious. Russia’s successor to the KGB, the Federal Security Service (FSB), sometimes in cahoots with criminal business networks that have thrived under Mr Putin, has not hesitated to kill perceived enemies of the state abroad, such as Alexander Litvinenko in London in 2006. The targeting of Mr Skripal—presuming he was a victim of the FSB—is not all that unusual.

 

One of the differences between this case and the prior case of Litvinenko -- and opposed to most of the discussion in the cited article -- is the current case and prior UK case allegedly involves a government -- Russia -- assassinating its own dissident citizens on foreign soil.

 

That's a pretty different game that the broader issues the article gets into with terrorism and questions about the western governments' military efforts to stop and kill suspected terrorists. The war on terrorism is a real war, although different than the past because it's not nation state actors making formal war declarations against each other. Such is the modern, fuzzy world.

 

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Is Teboil a gasoline station? I don't know how closed-loop Lukoil's upstream and downstream businesses are but the reality with companies such as Shell, Exxon etc, is that the product you buy on the forecourt cannot be said with any assurance to have come from that company's production facilities. Crude is bought and sold multiple times between wellhead and refinery so it is entirely feasible that the Shell gasoline with which you fill your car was actually produced by a competitor.

Yes, it's a gasoline station, owned by Lukoil. They also say Lukoil operates in 22 countries. Might be worth of checking if they operate in each others local countries.

 

http://www.teboil.fi/en/company/lukoil-group/

 

[khunken]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Perhaps this is the reason a lot of opinion thinks Putin and Russia are responsible for this, apart from Russia having developed the nerve agent that was used in this assassination.

 

 

One of the differences between this case and the prior case of Litvinenko -- and opposed to most of the discussion in the cited article -- is the current case and prior UK case allegedly involves a government -- Russia -- assassinating its own dissident citizens on foreign soil.

 

That's a pretty different game that the broader issues the article gets into with terrorism and questions about the western governments' military efforts to stop and kill suspected terrorists. The war on terrorism is a real war, although different than the past because it's not nation state actors making formal war declarations against each other. Such is the modern, fuzzy world.

 

Well both the Litvinenko case & the current one are 'alleged'. Finger-pointing is not proof.

 

As regards assassinations of so-called terrorists in the so-called 'war on terror', again none have been proven guilty. If Russia is proven to be the guilty party, they could take a leaf out of the accusers' book and just call it their 'war on terrorists'.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 minute ago, khunken said:

Well both the Litvinenko case & the current one are 'alleged'. Finger-pointing is not proof.

 

There's been lots of reporting and investigation into the Litvinenko case through the years, even down to the identification of the two Russians who were with him just prior to his death. Not to mention the official finding of the inquest in Britain that judged the Russian government responsible.

 

Not too many people have many doubts that Russia was responsible for Litvinenko's death. But obviously, for you in the case of Russia, they're never guilty of anything and can do no wrong.

 

[khunken]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

There's been lots of reporting and investigation into the Litvinenko case through the years, even down to the identification of the two Russians who were with him just prior to his death. Not to mention the official finding of the inquest in Britain that judged the Russian government responsible.

 

Not too many people have many doubts that Russia was responsible for Litvinenko's death. But obviously, for you in the case of Russia, they're never guilty of anything and can do no wrong.

 

Don't put words in my mouth. I stated previously that I will accept proof of whoever is responsible - did you deliberately miss that.

You appear to be one of the finger-pointers that thinks that Russia is guilty of everything it is accused of.

 

[RuamRudy]

I am not sure if this is going to sound particularly callous but being a spy is a hazardous occupation; being a double agent, much more so, I would assume. I would further assume that nobody walks into such an occupation with their eyes closed - they would be fully aware of the risks and dangers.

 

Spy v Spy is not some modern concept; governments have been secretly and overtly bumping off spies since day 1. Much goes on that we will never hear about; much is explained away in the most ridiculous fashion but without any attept to clarify (I am thinking of the guy who allegedly committed suicide by zipping himself into a holdall, locking it shut then lowering himself into the bath without touching the sides). Basically, espionage is and always will be a fraught business.

 

But in the main, these events seem to be contained within the spy community with little to no collaterol damage beyond. So, do I want my country to start trying to punch way above its weight at another country because they suspect that it had a hand in killing someone who had double crossed them, and has probably been responsible himself for multiple instances of dishing out the same kind of treatment to others? Not at all.

 

That doesn't mean that it should be ignored, but there are ways and means that displeasure can be demonstrated that doesn't involve playing to the international gallery.

[Thongkorn]

8 hours ago, lanista said:

Russia has every right to expel  23 Brits. The UK gov is assuming Putin had something to do with the poisoning without  hard evidence. This bias in the western media about everything Russian is out of control.  Theyre now trying to cut transmission of RT TV in the west,. RT gives a professional second opinion on all the dribble that CNN and BBC go on with everyday.

Don’t make me laugh Russia today is Kremlin sponcerd.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned much here is the significance of the method of attempted assassination/assassination in both this case and the Litvinenko case, nerve agent in the former and radiation poisoning in the latter.

 

Now, if you just wanted to kill someone and do it quietly without attracting much attention, there are a whole lot simpler, easier methods to do it than those. Just a couple double taps to the head in some out of the way place. Or staged to look like an attempted robbery. And if done right, the authorities, and the general public, might be left thinking it was just a case of random crime or perhaps some personal vendetta.

 

But in these two cases, the killer didn't want to take the easy way. And obviously, the killer chose methods that weren't in any way likely to be mistaken for being random criminal acts. No, the killer chose methods/instruments that are typically only in the hands of state actors -- nerve agents and radiation poisoning.

 

It's those kinds of killings that are designed to perhaps deliberately extend the suffering of the victims, a slow death in Litvinenko's case, and certainly suffering in this case by Skripal and his daughter. But even moreso, the method of killing in these two cases certainly appears designed to send a message to players in the spy games -- you can run to the West, but we can get you no matter where you run to, and no matter whom you're protected by.

 

That's the kind of message that Putin and his henchmen undoubtedly want to send. And the method of the Litvinenko assassination and the attempted Skripal assassinations fit that design to a T.