Online Teaching

[Happy Grumpy]

2 hours ago, Loaded said:

Where does it say they were working for a Thai company?

 

They were working for a Chinese online company that begins with 'a' and ends with '0'.

Incorrect.

 

You're wrong again.

 

They were hired by and working for a Thai company called BOI360Max.

 

If you work for a Thai company or company in Thailand, you come under the Alien Worker's Act.

 

If you work remotely for a non-Thai company or company that's not in Thailand, you don't. That's the law.

 

 

Cheers.

[mommysboy]

Loaded is quite wrong and he knows it.  

 

There is a marked difference between working online in an office in Thailand for a business, and working online by yourself from a private apartment/home.

 

It's trolling and scare-mongering.

 

 

[Happy Grumpy]

2 hours ago, Loaded said:

Can't you read?

 

"To be able to legally work in Thailand the foreigner must have a valid non-immigrant visa and a work permit issued in his name allowing him to perform a specific job at a specific location for a specific company in Thailand."

 

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/translations/foreign-employment-working-of-aliens-act

 

Show me the exclusion for remote workers, online teachers or overseas companies without a legal presence in Thailand.

 

Remote workers, online teachers (if not working for a Thai company or company here) aren't working in Thailand.

 

They're working remotely while here. 

 

Ask immigration and the MoL.

 

What if I want to work in Thailand?

If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type  visa and then a work permit in order to work legally.

If you are a ‘digital nomad’ running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa.

 

Pol. Col. Rutphong Sanwanangkun, Superintendent of Chiang Mai Immigration

 

 

"The Punspace members were all released from the immigration office by around 3pm, after officials verified none of the 11 had overstayed their visas, been blacklisted or were working illegally."

 

:)

 

Cheers.

[Happy Grumpy]

If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type  visa and then a work permit in order to work legally.

 

Pol. Col. Rutphong Sanwanangkun, Superintendent of Chiang Mai Immigration

 

If you aren't working for a Thai company, you don't.

 

 

Cheers.

[Loaded]

I know you guys are protecting self interests but you are intentionally being dishonest. As the law stands there is no exclusion for people working for foreign companies. Quote the relevant law. It's that simple. You then win. But you quote a quote of a translation that said an individual won't enforce the law in Chiang Mai. That isn't evidence.

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[Happy Grumpy]

10 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

If you work for a Thai company or company in Thailand, you come under the Alien Worker's Act.

 

If you work remotely for a non-Thai company or company that's not in Thailand, you don't. That's the law.

 

Look at these online teachers, bloggers, vloggers and other remote workers working away without breaking any immigration or labour laws.

 

 

 

 

Come on in and do your online teaching and other remote work, fully legally. No WP needed. Can even legally work remotely on a Tourist Visa.

 

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

[Happy Grumpy]

2 minutes ago, Loaded said:

As the law stands there is no exclusion for people working for foreign companies.

Why would there be an exclusion? 

 

As they don't come under the act, there's no need to be one. The act is for people working in Thailand, not those working remotely while here. 

 

Just because you don't understand Thai (or English very well), doesn't mean that the MFA, MoL and DoI don't. 

 

 

Cheers.

[Loaded]

The law isn't enforced in Chiang Mai but that doesnt mean it's legal.

I could post photos of Thai police allowing motorists to jump red lights. That doesn't mean it's legal.

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[Swimman]

The problem which challenges "digital nomads" is maintaining a legal presence in the country. Using serial back to back visa exempt entries/tourist visas is, progressively, becoming increasingly difficult.

[Happy Grumpy]

7 minutes ago, Swimman said:

The problem which challenges "digital nomads" is maintaining a legal presence in the country. Using serial back to back visa exempt entries/tourist visas is, progressively, becoming increasingly difficult.

Yes, as it isn't legally considered working in Thailand, there isn't any reason for there to be a visa for it.

 

People may legally do it while here for purposes of tourism, education, visiting spouse/child, etc. 

 

There's no need for Thailand to offer a visa for it, as it isn't legally considered anything to do with Thailand.

 

 

Cheers.

[Happy Grumpy]

17 minutes ago, Loaded said:

The law isn't enforced in Chiang Mai but that doesnt mean it's legal.

I could post photos of Thai police allowing motorists to jump red lights. That doesn't mean it's legal.

You need to start quoting laws that state 'Remote working while in Thailand is illegal'.

 

 

But there's no such law.

 

 

 

For those being hired by a Thai company, they legally come under the Alien Worker's Act.

 

Corporate documents of hiring company in Thailand such as:
                1) business registration and business license
                2) list of shareholders
                3) company profile
                4) details of business operation
                5) list of foreign workers stating names, nationalities and positions
                6) map indicating location of the company
                7) balance sheet, statement of Income Tax and Business Tax (Por Ngor Dor 50 and Por Ngor Dor 30 of the latest year)
               8) value-added tax registration (Por Por 20)

 

http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908/15388-Non-Immigrant-Visa-"B"-(for-Business-and.html

 

Those working remotely for non-Thai companies don't come under this Act.

 

 

Cheers.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Happy Grumpy

[AGareth2]

are they in Thailand?

Are they working(making money)?

[Loaded]

And zero evidence from any government website to support that claim.

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[Happy Grumpy]

13 minutes ago, Loaded said:

And zero evidence from any government website to support that claim.

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Still no MFA, MoL or DoL quote or law from you regarding remotely employed workers......

 

 

Come on, chop chop. 

 

 

Cheers.

[Happy Grumpy]

15 minutes ago, Loaded said:

And zero evidence from any government website to support that claim.

What claim? That the Alien Workers Act is only for aliens employed by Thai companies, and not those employed and working remotely?

 

Here it is, on the MFA website.

 

Quote

Corporate documents of hiring company in Thailand such as:
                1) business registration and business license
                2) list of shareholders
                3) company profile
                4) details of business operation
                5) list of foreign workers stating names, nationalities and positions
                6) map indicating location of the company
                7) balance sheet, statement of Income Tax and Business Tax (Por Ngor Dor 50 and Por Ngor Dor 30 of the latest year)
               8) value-added tax registration (Por Por 20)

 

http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908/15388-Non-Immigrant-Visa-"B"-(for-Business-and.html

 

 

Cheers.

[mommysboy]

14 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

are they in Thailand?

Are they working(making money)?

That is the first broad rule test.  

 

There are then a number of variables that are taken in to consideration: enforcability, scale, environment, length of stay, type of activity, family circumstances, and most importantly whether it poses a general threat to Thailand, takes work away from Thai people, or uses Thai resources such as office space.

 

Currently, having taken in to consideration these variables it appears online working is disregarded/tolerated.  This is not to say that it may be deemed illegal in the future using the existing legal framework, but right now it appears ok.

[Johnniey]

1 hour ago, Swimman said:

The problem which challenges "digital nomads" is maintaining a legal presence in the country. Using serial back to back visa exempt entries/tourist visas is, progressively, becoming increasingly difficult.

There are many ways around this. one can buy a 1 year visa.  of course, this is illegal, but happens, just like people not wearing helmets or going to a go go bar.

 

[Johnniey]

If online teaching were illegal, this thread would be allowed.

 

Try starting one about online poker(even though it is legal), and see how long that lasts.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Johnniey

[mommysboy]

41 minutes ago, Johnniey said:

If online teaching were illegal, this thread would be allowed.

 

Try starting one about online poker(even though it is legal), and see how long that lasts.

typo.  would not be.

 

Yes, absolutely.  The mod also stated his opinion way back.  It was a very sensible posting.

 

 

[Loaded]

Go to your local immigration and labor office and tell them you are working online in Thailand for an overseas company. Show them your tourist visa stamp and tell them you don't have a work permit and then say goodbye to Thailand

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[attrayant]

I'm afraid if somebody did than and came back here to report the results, you'd say it's no good because it's only a translation of what some bureaucrat at immigration said, not the REAL LAW.

[Loaded]

Would I? Give it a go

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[mommysboy]

2 minutes ago, Loaded said:

Would I? Give it a go

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you go fetch!

[Neeranam]

42 minutes ago, Loaded said:

Go to your local immigration and labor office and tell them you are working online in Thailand for an overseas company. Show them your tourist visa stamp and tell them you don't have a work permit and then say goodbye to Thailand

Sent from my CPH1701 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

That's a stupid idea.

You are the only one saying that it is not allowed, and seen to have some kind resentment against those honest online teachers.

There's a lot of money to be made online, you should try it and give up that gig you have. Or supplement it, something to do when the students are having their afternoon nap lol

[attrayant]

2 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said:

2 hours ago, Loaded said:

The law isn't enforced in Chiang Mai but that doesnt mean it's legal.  I could post photos of Thai police allowing motorists to jump red lights. That doesn't mean it's legal.

 

You need to start quoting laws that state 'Remote working while in Thailand is illegal'.  But there's no such law.

 

I want to echo this.  Laws are written to tell us what we can't do, not what we can do.  More tellingly, the process for "getting legal" requires things that a foreign company simply wouldn't (or couldn't) provide:

 

• letter of employment (I was already employed when I arrived in Thailand)
• certificate of degree (What if my job doesn't require a degree? How can the Thai government mandate that I have a degree to work for a foreign company?  The foreign company I'm working for decides if I'm qualified, not the Thai government.)
• list of shareholders (I was working for the DC city government. Who are the shareholders?)
• application for VAT (How does this even apply to a foreign company?)
• withholding tax of the company (Foreign companies and governments are not obligated to open their books to Thai labor office, and why should they?)
• financial statement (Would that be the annual budget in my case?)
• photocopy of the director’s passport and work permit with signature affixed (Does that mean me? At that time, my position title was program director.) 

You can look at this list and see as clear as day that it wan't made with foreign employers in mind.

 

Secondly, if anyone is claiming vagueness in the law (which I don't necessarily disagree with since the laws are outdated), we have to speculate on how a judge would rule.  To speculate about that, we need to think about immigration laws with respect to working.  Why do such laws exist in the first place? Two obvious reasons:  

 

1. To preserve the country's job market primarily for its own citizens. Are you doing something that a Thai could be doing?  Then that's one big strike against you and I wouldn't blame the judge for tossing you out on your keister.
2. To prevent national resources and currency from leaving the country.  Lots of foreigners come here for work and send a great deal of the money back to their families, resulting in a negative cash flow situation for Thailand.  It's incumbent on the Thai authorities to structure labor laws to ensure that whatever benefit they get from permitting foreign labor to work for Thai companies at least balances the expatriated revenue.

 

However, those living here employed by a foreign company (as I was for six weeks when I came here on vacation in 2010 but still had to manage my staff back home) represent a potentially lucrative revenue stream since, even though their salary might be given by a foreign company and deposited into a foreign bank, foreigners in Thailand still need to buy Thai goods and services while they are here.  They essentially operate as long-stay tourists and add revenue to the tourist sector.  This is a net benefit to the country and the government would be foolish to actively restrict it.  That may explain why it has been openly tolerated for so long.

 

Also, Thailand is trying to make a name for itself as a hub for digital nomads, and would probably not like to see stories in the newspapers about such DNs arrested and deported regardless of the reason.  Negative brand perception is hard to shake.

[attrayant]

33 minutes ago, Loaded said:

Would I? Give it a go

 

I'm guessing you would, because you did:

 

[Happy Grumpy]

1 hour ago, Loaded said:

Go to your local immigration and labor office and tell them you are working online in Thailand for an overseas company. Show them your tourist visa stamp and tell them you don't have a work permit and then say goodbye to Thailand

Holy moly you spout some utter nonsense.

 

 

People have already gone to immigration about working remotely while on Tourist Visas, and immigration smiled and did nothing other to tell them that it's fine to work remotely while in Thailand on Tourist Visas.

 

 

Then the Superintendent Pol. Col of immigration even held a seminar and explained to all. If you are working for a Thai company, you come under the Alien Worker's Act. If you don't, you don't, and can legally work remotely on your Tourist Visa.

 

 

Cheers.  

[Happy Grumpy]

1 hour ago, attrayant said:

I want to echo this.  Laws are written to tell us what we can't do, not what we can do.

Indeed.

 

The MFA clearly state that only working for a Thai company or company in Thailand is legally considered as working in Thailand, and comes under the Alien Worker's Act.

 

Loaded's lost his mind.

 

 

 

Cheers.

[Loaded]

There is no exemption for remote workers.

 

There is no exemption for workers in Thailand working for a foreign company - imagine if there was, nobody would bother with non-immigrant B visas, work permits and taxes. They would just say I work for a foreign company and ignore labor, immigration and the MFA. This is what you guys are doing now. Don't you think that if you can work here without visas, work permits, pay tax etc., that the authorities here would want to check, confirm your situation? You know they do, which is why you hide away.

 

"A foreigner who engages in work without having the work permit for it shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of not exceeding 5 years or to a fine from THB 2,000 to 100,000 or both."

 

I don't read that this doesn't apply to remote workers or people working for non-Thai companies. This is the punishment for working without a work permit.

 

Good luck to you guys. You are getting away with it and probably will for a long time, but that doesn't make you legal.

[Happy Grumpy]

33 minutes ago, Loaded said:

 

I don't read that this doesn't apply to remote workers or people working for non-Thai companies.

Really?

 

Have you not read the MFA link that you posted?

 

Here it is:

 

Corporate documents of hiring company in Thailand such as:
                1) business registration and business license
                2) list of shareholders
                3) company profile
                4) details of business operation
                5) list of foreign workers stating names, nationalities and positions
                6) map indicating location of the company
                7) balance sheet, statement of Income Tax and Business Tax (Por Ngor Dor 50 and Por Ngor Dor 30 of the latest year)
               8) value-added tax registration (Por Por 20)

 

http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908/15388-Non-Immigrant-Visa-"B"-(for-Business-and.html

 

Remote employees of non-Thai companies are not legally considered as working in Thailand.

 

Immigration Superintendent have even come out and declared this for the dunderheads that don't understand it.

 

 

If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type  visa and then a work permit in order to work legally.

If you are a ‘digital nomad’ running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa."

Immigration Superintendent Pol. Col. Rutphong Sanwanangkun

 

 

Cheers.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Happy Grumpy