UK Labour leader Corbyn apologises for anti-Semitism in his party‍​

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, dexterm said:

 

Nor am I obliged to agree with every point made in a BBC or any other report. I was backing up a fact with a link that Jewish supporters of Corbyn regard the OP demonstrators as being on some sort of one sided witch hunt attacking the Labor leader. Whereas sources are something you rarely offer. You just present the forum with your usually fence sitting opinion and declare it as fact. 

 

>>Corbyn's own admissions as to antisemitism in his own party

...Of course there is, as Levine acknowledged...it exists in all political parties and societies. But at least Corbyn is doing something about it, unlike the opposition parties.

 

What I and the Jewish Voice for Labour object to is the bizarre consistently one sided attack focused on Corbyn  himself, and the deliberate conflation of anti Zionism with genuine anti Semitism. There is the hand of the a foreign power at work here interfering again in UK politics because they don't like the prospect of him becoming PM.

 

You are obliged not to twist things too much - and taking the bit your quoted as if it was central or even representative of the report is just that. Most of the article you yourself linked (other than the bit quoted) is not in agreement with your views. In other words you  were simply trying to co-opt the BBC report as support, and it failed.

 

The usual nonsense "fence sitting" is something you throw in quite often (along with "besmirch") whether it applies or not. Quite odd (but also, routine) for you to claim in one post that I try to do the latter, and then in another to allege the former. About as consistent as your personal comments get. As for pretending issues regarding the Labour Party, Corbyn and antisemitism were never discussed on this forum, and that you never participated in such - more of the same nonsense tactics out of you. Similarly, since you refuse to acknowledge even content included in a link you provide - your  "point" about sources seems rather pathetic.

 

I don't know that Corbyn is actually "doing something about it" or that even if he is, that he's particularly successful or sincere on this issue. What I do know, with regard to your last paragraph is that you either didn't read the article you linked, or that you intentionally ignore the parts therein which run against your views. As pointed out, even Corbyn (if taken at face value) is not quite onboard with your usual mode of presentation and style.

[dexterm]

27 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You are obliged not to twist things too much - and taking the bit your quoted as if it was central or even representative of the report is just that. Most of the article you yourself linked (other than the bit quoted) is not in agreement with your views. In other words you  were simply trying to co-opt the BBC report as support, and it failed.

 

The usual nonsense "fence sitting" is something you throw in quite often (along with "besmirch") whether it applies or not. Quite odd (but also, routine) for you to claim in one post that I try to do the latter, and then in another to allege the former. About as consistent as your personal comments get. As for pretending issues regarding the Labour Party, Corbyn and antisemitism were never discussed on this forum, and that you never participated in such - more of the same nonsense tactics out of you. Similarly, since you refuse to acknowledge even content included in a link you provide - your  "point" about sources seems rather pathetic.

 

I don't know that Corbyn is actually "doing something about it" or that even if he is, that he's particularly successful or sincere on this issue. What I do know, with regard to your last paragraph is that you either didn't read the article you linked, or that you intentionally ignore the parts therein which run against your views. As pointed out, even Corbyn (if taken at face value) is not quite onboard with your usual mode of presentation and style.

>> Most of the article you yourself linked (other than the bit quoted) is not in agreement with your views. 
...so what? Weird way of thinking....that one must agree with everything in a linked article. It wasn't central to my views at all; I was merely quoting an authentic source of Levine's words rather than hearsay. If you want to quote some counter argument from the same link, by all means do so...it would make a refreshing change if you even quoted sources.

 

>>I don't know that Corbyn is actually "doing something about it" or that even if he is, that he's particularly successful or sincere on this issue.
...see what I mean about fence sitting language. Always the semblance of objectivity that in the end really says nothing.

 

You may not know that Corbyn is doing something about anti-Semitism in his party, but I do.

Edited March 29, 2018 by dexterm

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>> Most of the article you yourself linked (other than the bit quoted) is not in agreement with your views. 
...so what? Weird way of thinking....that one must agree with everything in a linked article. It wasn't central to my views at all; I was merely quoting the source of Levine's words. If you want to quote some counter argument from the same link, by all means do so...it would make a refreshing change if you quoted sources.

 

>>I don't know that Corbyn is actually "doing something about it" or that even if he is, that he's particularly successful or sincere on this issue.
...see what I mean about fence sitting language. Always the semblance of objectivity that in the end really says nothing.

 

Stop twisting my words. I never said you had to agree to "everything". What I did point out is that to use a minor quote from an article, while ignoring the context or the vast majority of the content, is dishonest. That you don't see it this way is not surprising. And what would be the significance of me "quoting sources", in this instance? I'm referring to article you yourself linked, not making a counter argument regarding Levine's words - this is just another lame spin of yours.

 

You claim Corbyn "is doing something about it". You provide no support for either such action or its efficacy. What is exactly your complaint here? That I don't accept your claim without reservations? That I don't deny them outright? Corbyn may have taken some action, at least nominally, and with this or that amount of energy. Whether this is seen as "doing something about it" is hardly an undisputed fact as you try to present.

 

Anything of substance or is the rest just more of the same petty nonsense?

[Jingthing]

This article greatly expands on the point I made before, that antisemitism on the left really hits home to western Jews, because the majority of western Jews are on the left. It covers the U.K. (Corbyn) and U.S. Because it does awkwardly hit home there is perhaps less push back from western Jews on Jew hating from the left than the more historically classic Jew hating from the right. 

 

In other words, it's super easy and unambiguous to fight back against Nazis but less easy to fight back against people that you agree with on most issues!

 

Quote

Anti-Semitism Is Flourishing On The Left. Why Does No One Care?

https://forward.com/opinion/397700/anti-semitism-is-flourishing-on-the-left-why-does-no-one-care/?attribution=home-hero-item-text-2

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Jingthing

[pagallim]

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

This article greatly expands on the point I made before, that antisemitism on the left really hits home to western Jews, because the majority of western Jews are on the left. It covers the U.K. (Corbyn) and U.S. Because it does awkwardly hit home there is perhaps less push back from western Jews on Jew hating from the left than the more historically classic Jew hating from the right. 

 

In other words, it's super easy and unambiguous to fight back against Nazis but less easy to fight back against people that you agree with on most issues!

 

https://forward.com/opinion/397700/anti-semitism-is-flourishing-on-the-left-why-does-no-one-care/?attribution=home-hero-item-text-2

 

 

Somewhat related, from another topic:

 

Quote

Knoll was buried on Wednesday in Bagneux on the southern outskirts of Paris ahead of the march organised by Crif, an umbrella body of French Jewish groups. Crif's leader told far-right and far-left groups not to attend the rally.

 

"Anti-Semites are over-represented in the far left and the far right, making those parties ones that you don't want to be associated with," Crif director Francis Kalifat told RTL radio. "Therefore they are not welcome."

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1031229-far-right-hard-left-leaders-forced-out-of-french-march-to-honour-jewish-murder-victim/

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

This article greatly expands on the point I made before, that antisemitism on the left really hits home to western Jews, because the majority of western Jews are on the left. It covers the U.K. (Corbyn) and U.S. Because it does awkwardly hit home there is perhaps less push back from western Jews on Jew hating from the left than the more historically classic Jew hating from the right. 

 

In other words, it's super easy and unambiguous to fight back against Nazis but less easy to fight back against people that you agree with on most issues!

 

https://forward.com/opinion/397700/anti-semitism-is-flourishing-on-the-left-why-does-no-one-care/?attribution=home-hero-item-text-2

 

There is no entrenched antisemitism on the left. The fight for social justice is deliberately being misconstrued in this instance.

 

This is your personal dilemma, JT.

Your posts generally demonstrate great humanitarianism and compassion, but when it comes to anything that can be remotely construed as critical of Israel or manufactured conflated anti Semitism, your objective judgment fails you.

Edited March 29, 2018 by dexterm

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, dexterm said:

There is no entrenched anitsemitism on the left.

 

This is your personal dilemma, JT.
Your posts generally demonstrate great humanitarianism and compassion, but when it comes to anything that can be remotely construed as critical of Israel or manufactured conflated anti Semitism, your objective judgment fails you.

 

No, rather it is you claiming that there is no entrenched antisemitism on the left. There's no particular reason to accept your opinion.

[dexterm]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

No, rather it is you claiming that there is no entrenched antisemitism on the left. There's no particular reason to accept your opinion.

up2u.

 

I am not going to to feed this trolling kangaroo court with any more of my time tonight.

[geriatrickid]

7 hours ago, Expatthailover said:

Seems to be ok ( in many quarters, not me in any way ) to express anti thai, anti muslim, anti african sentiments.

Surely it should be se rigeur to denounce the negative stereotyping and denigration of any creed 

Just as it  is to espouse snide and hurtful remarks against people who's moral code leans to the conservative side or who have Christian sentiments. Unfortunately, too many people who claim to be moral  e.g. "the moral  majority" or socially progressive, e.g. "liberals" pick and choose when to be respectful of others. 

 

7 hours ago, dexterm said:

"Jewess" are your anti Semitic quotation marks not mine. Don't try to use the same bogus slandering tactics against me as the OP demonstrators.

 

So a mural painted by an American six years ago leads to mass demonstrations aimed at besmirching Corbyn today coincidentally just before elections that Labor may win, and instigated by Luciana Berger stabbing her own party's chances in the back. She has known sympathies with Israel against a man who has known sympathies with Palestinians. 

 

Something fishy going on here, and it aint about anti Semitism.

The fishy  thing was the attempt to coverup Corbyn's refusal to address the issue when it was first raised. The locals protested. Corbyn dismissed their concerns. Look at the time line. The locals had the  depiction of vile  bigotry painted over as it offended them. Corbyn's position was to ridicule them. The issue is far bigger than the usual jew bashing of  die hard lefties. It exposes the arrogance of the Corbynites who are condescending and dismissive of  anyone who doesn't tow the line. 

 

The mural is but one of many events in the recent history of the Labour party which demonstrates its pandering to vile bigots. It has always been an easy way to rally the  militants; bash the jews. It's the only ethnic group aside from Poles and Roma that gets a free pass when the bashing and ridicule starts. Labour would never dare criticize people of colour for the tolerance of slavery in Africa, or Islam for the genocide of Black Christians in the Darfur. In fact it is rather telling that the acts which Corbynites and their  allies use to justify their anti semitism  have played out in real time in  the Arab Gulf, in Syria, in Africa and nary a word from them when there were actual deaths and actual human rights issues. Instead it's  pick on a jew  time because that's what they can get away with and  rally the haters to  a good old mob event. Labour politics are not much removed from a 1000 years ago when the locals would go through the villages hunting jews to kill because some hag had warts.  I have no delusions that once the Corbynites are done exterminating jews they will move on to land owners or  business owners because they are deemed to be counter to the interests of those living in council flats and on the dole.

Edited March 29, 2018 by geriatrickid

[Scott]

Post from unapproved source removed.  

[Jingthing]

One thing is certain though, about antisemitism on the left. It has gotten worse over time. As a young man that was politically active I hardly noticed it though other forms of intolerance such as homophobia were rampant then. What has happened does seem to largely be related to Israel. Most left type Jews would agree with reasoned criticisms of Israeli policies at the very least but what's happened on the left goes so much further than that and sadly often bleeds into very explicit Jew hating. Such as  with the Black Lives Matter movement in the U.S. which I support in their domestic goals, but then I don't support the often antisemitic Israel narrative that a portion of their leadership espouses. Makes things complicated for sure. 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Jingthing

[wellred]

Nothing like a smear campaign to detract from the real main issue, which is, a year away from Brexit and we have made bugger all progress. 

 

Yes this needs addressing but let's not forget about context.

 

Labour has a problem with:

Anti-semitism

Brexit policy

 

Tories have a problem with:

The poor

The vunerable

NHS

Social care

Schools

A beneficial relationship with the EU

Sacking Boris Johnson

The disabled

Police funding

Prison funding

Affordable housing

Mental health provision

People being seen at A&E before they die

People having enough to eat

The young

Student nurses

Immigrents

Preventing child poverty

Preventing homelessness

Libraries

Poor kids having one hot meal a day

Magic money trees*

 

* Does not apply to DUP, privatized railway companies, donors and wealthy friends.

 

 

[Jingthing]

5 hours ago, wellred said:

Nothing like a smear campaign to detract from the real main issue, which is, a year away from Brexit and we have made bugger all progress. 

 

Yes this needs addressing but let's not forget about context.

 

Labour has a problem with:

Anti-semitism

Brexit policy

 

Tories have a problem with:

The poor

The vunerable

NHS

Social care

Schools

A beneficial relationship with the EU

Sacking Boris Johnson

The disabled

Police funding

Prison funding

Affordable housing

Mental health provision

People being seen at A&E before they die

People having enough to eat

The young

Student nurses

Immigrents

Preventing child poverty

Preventing homelessness

Libraries

Poor kids having one hot meal a day

Magic money trees*

 

* Does not apply to DUP, privatized railway companies, donors and wealthy friends.

 

 

A compelling case indeed but then there's this --

 

Quote

 NEW YORK TIMES
Jeremy Corbyn, Accidental Anti-Semite
...
The election of Donald Trump has caused waves of justified fear about the unique threat he poses to civil liberties in the free world. Yet Jeremy Corbyn may be the next prime minister of Britain, much to the delight of progressives on both sides of the Atlantic. What happens now will be a test for the global left: If it is willing to let Corbyn off the hook, it can have no honest case against Trump. No claim to moral respect, either.

http://www.paywallnews.com/life/Opinion-|-Jeremy-Corbyn--Accidental-Anti-Semite.BkvY_B59f.html

Edited March 29, 2018 by Jingthing

[SheungWan]

17 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Change the subject or kick it into the long grass is one way to go. Anyway, today's There Is No Problem In the Labour Party, Oh No!: See today's Daily Mail. "Labour Party In Meltdown Over Anti-Semitism" "Party discipline chief quits after she opposed suspending activist who posted vile Facebook link denying Holocaust" ref: Daniel Martin, Policy Editor.

 

17 hours ago, dexterm said:

>>See today's Daily Mail....555

 

Says it all! I don't think you do your cause much good by quoting from that right wing gutter press...the UK's Fox Noise.

When a forum contributor wants to kick into the long grass a breaking story about a leading member of the Labour Party defending  the candidature of another Labour Party member who has been posting Holocaust Denial rubbish, then you know you have the politics of that forum contributor nailed to the wall.

[CharlesSwann]

16 hours ago, Jingthing said:

One thing is certain though, about antisemitism on the left. It has gotten worse over time. As a young man that was politically active I hardly noticed it though other forms of intolerance such as homophobia were rampant then. What has happened does seem to largely be related to Israel. Most left type Jews would agree with reasoned criticisms of Israeli policies at the very least but what's happened on the left goes so much further than that and sadly often bleeds into very explicit Jew hating. Such as  with the Black Lives Matter movement in the U.S. which I support in their domestic goals, but then I don't support the often antisemitic Israel narrative that a portion of their leadership espouses. Makes things complicated for sure. 

 

So you're saying that if Israel acted differently, then leftist anti-semitism would disappear. I would agree. Conclusion is that it's not 'anti-semitism' at all, but a political stance. It's only perceived as anti-semitism by those who are most insecure.

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, CharlesSwann said:

 

So you're saying that if Israel acted differently, then leftist anti-semitism would disappear. I would agree. Conclusion is that it's not 'anti-semitism' at all, but a political stance. It's only perceived as anti-semitism by those who are most insecure.

Wrong conclusion. That is not what I'm saying. Do not tell me what I am saying, OK?

 

As anyone with basic common sense can tell, there are things representing normal criticism of a nation's policies directed at Israel, and then there are things that are explicitly about Jew hating that use opposing Israel as a thin cover.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Jingthing

[SheungWan]

The Labour Party NEC latest: By-bye Christine Shawcroft: Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[Grouse]

It's my party and I'll lie if I want too....

[cabinfever]

Thousands of Jeremy Corbyn supporters endorse letter saying Jewish-organised antisemitism protest was the work of 'very powerful special interest group'

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-antisemitism-protest-powerful-special-interest-group-jewish-a8278761.html

This letter shouldn't offer enough of a fig leaf even for the most willfully naive to deny the anti-semitism that clearly motivated its authors. But deny it they will.

[Scott]

Troll post removed.

[Kiwiken]

On 3/27/2018 at 5:23 PM, sanemax said:

Can you name any instances when someone criticised  Israels domestic policy and was then labelled as being anti semetic ?

January 2017 the motion in the UN the last passed before Obama left office in the US. New Zealand along with others tabled a motion in the UN condemning Israel settlement expansion on Palestinian Land.

Netanyahu personal phone NZ Foreign Minister Murray McCully and claimed Our support of this motion to be an act of war and antisemitic.

There is your example documented and reported!

[Morch]

3 hours ago, Kiwiken said:

January 2017 the motion in the UN the last passed before Obama left office in the US. New Zealand along with others tabled a motion in the UN condemning Israel settlement expansion on Palestinian Land.

Netanyahu personal phone NZ Foreign Minister Murray McCully and claimed Our support of this motion to be an act of war and antisemitic.

There is your example documented and reported!

 

I don't think there's a shortage of politicians, especially right wing Israelis who play the antisemitism card, whether or not it's warranted. I do disagree that this is the case with regard to most comments from non-idiots referring to reasonable criticism of Israel. Of course, we may have different takes on what passes for "reasonable".

 

Could be wrong, but if memory serves Netanyahu's gem of nonsense on the occasion specified was not so much about antisemitism, but alleging that New Zealand practically "declared war on Israel" or some such. Goes to show that there are lame politicians everywhere.

 

And, oh, that still doesn't get Corbyn a free pass. Whether he shows his true colors or blunders, too many instances of this to ignore.

[Grouse]

I have never had any antisemitic thoughts. Probably from back in the 60s when we were herded into the gym block to be shown newsreel footage of the Holocaust which haunts me to this day!

 

But, I am rather anti Israel even after having read up about it at length. Basically, I feel they are a bloody nuisance; they could have played the hand given to them without causing so much trouble.

 

Mind you, there are always extremists. All those funny hats and ringlets! Do what you like in the privacy of your own home!

 

I once worked for a terrific Jew at UMIST ventures. Ex para and all round war hero! Chemical engineer since you ask. Lived in Hale and drove a Merc; otherwise you would never know what religion he was. I like that ?

[Grouse]

BTW, it is Easter Sunday!

 

Happy Easter everyone! I hope you all got lots of eggs!

 

Anyone remember Jarping? Was that just in the NE?

 

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/jarp

 

At the risk of getting into trouble, and as an aetheist, I do wish the Abramaic religions would get together and find common ground ?

Edited April 1, 2018 by Grouse

[Rimmer]

An off topic post has been removed

[Jingthing]

34 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I don't think there's a shortage of politicians, especially right wing Israelis who play the antisemitism card, whether or not it's warranted. I do disagree that this is the case with regard to most comments from non-idiots referring to reasonable criticism of Israel. Of course, we may have different takes on what passes for "reasonable".

 

Could be wrong, but if memory serves Netanyahu's gem of nonsense on the occasion specified was not so much about antisemitism, but alleging that New Zealand practically "declared war on Israel" or some such. Goes to show that there are lame politicians everywhere.

 

And, oh, that still doesn't get Corbyn a free pass. Whether he shows his true colors or blunders, too many instances of this to ignore.

Yes, I think you're right.

I searched that incident and could not find any source that confirms that Bibi said that about antisemitism to NZ.

It would be nice if when people make such accusations that they document it.

You're also correct that he did compare it to an act of war. That was also an outrageous thing to say but not the same thing as the antisemitism accusation. 

Words have meanings.

[SheungWan]

5 hours ago, Grouse said:

I once worked for a terrific Jew at UMIST ventures.

When anybody either wants or feels the need to tell us about some nice Jew they know/knew, I'm sorry but it is downright creepy. Put a sock in it.

Edited April 1, 2018 by SheungWan

[SheungWan]

On 4/1/2018 at 7:43 PM, Morch said:

And, oh, that still doesn't get Corbyn a free pass. Whether he shows his true colors or blunders, too many instances of this to ignore.

Its not an either/or. Corbyn shows his true colours AND he blunders. And the stink in the Labour Party continues: https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/euan-mccolm-anti-semite-shame-of-supporting-corbyn-s-labour-1-4716352

 

[Khun Han]

On 01/04/2018 at 6:53 PM, SheungWan said:

When anybody either wants or feels the need to tell us about some nice Jew they know/knew, I'm sorry but it is downright creepy. Put a sock in it.

 

I agree. And the other side of the same coin is calling criticism of the Israeli government/criticism of any prominent politically motivated person who just happens to be of Jewish descent an "anti-Semitic dog whistle". It's often such constant harassment which leads people to the "Some of my best friends are....." that you describe. Meanwhile, none of these arguments are ever applied to the ways in which the Palestinian issue is discussed, even though they are at least equally appropriate in most scenarios. Amongst all the criticism of Palestinian leadership, and accusations that protesting youths are dangerous terrorists, virtually nobody gets accused of making underhand racist/stereotype (dog whistle) remarks about Palestinians .