A bitter pill to swallow .

[Brunolem]

1 hour ago, luk AJ said:

True, but they were already here when I arrived 20y ago. In fact I am convinced the Chinese/Thai contribute most to the Thai economy


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Indeed they do!

You could even say that they are the Thai economy...

[newnative]

2 hours ago, Brunolem said:

We all know that the official inflation numbers are massaged in order to keep it low...it looks good for the country and it allows to limit as much as possible the increase of anything indexed on inflation, including retirement pensions.

In Europe, many countries manage to not raise at all for many years, thanks to the lack of (official) inflation.

Anyway, here in Thailand, inflation is running fast...over the last 10 to 12 years, prices have doubled on average.

In the meantime, retirement pensions have certainly not doubled and currencies like the dollar or the euro have lost 30%...painful indeed...

    I arrived in Thailand on June 25, 2010.  On that day the US dollar to baht exchange rate was 32.39 according to the Bank of England.   I just did a money transfer from the US last week and got 31 baht to the dollar.  So, in my nearly 8 years here not a huge change overall.   Ups and downs over the years, yes, but not too far off from where I started.

    In the same 8 years, my cost of living raises on my pension total 13.02% with a high of 3.08% in 2012 and a low of 0% in 2010.  I just started getting social security in 2015 and, with this year's 2% raise, ss increases come to 4.3%.  As I said before, it's not a lot but it does help.

    I question your claim that prices have doubled here as that has not been my experience.  Certainly, fairly big cost of living items such as rent, condo fees, property prices, restaurant/food prices, fuel, etc., have not doubled since I have been here.  In 2010,  I rented a View Talay 3 studio condo for 20,000 baht a month on a 3 month rental.  Doubtful they are getting double that now.  You did say 10 to 12 years so perhaps the steep increases happened before I arrived in 2010.  

[Spaniel]

I first came to Thailand in 1967 and finally retired here (Bangkok) with my (Thai) wife in 1999.       Our son lives in the USA and we visit him for a couple months every year but we are happy living here and no plans to return to the US, other then short visits.

[Brunolem]

21 minutes ago, newnative said:

You did say 10 to 12 years so perhaps the steep increases happened before I arrived in 2010.  

That's right.

Prices were very stable until the massive arrival of the Russians, around 2005.

From then on, they exploded and quickly doubled.

A few examples...

With a few friends, we bought studios in 2004 in a new condo on soi 17, in Pattaya, for an average price of 700,000 baht.

Soon after 2010, they were selling at 1,5 million...

For many years the Big Mac menu was unchanged at 99 baht...check now...

A movie ticket was at 80 baht until 2006...then jumped to 180 baht.

My favorite tuna...in olive oil...was at 23 baht a can...and jumped to 42 baht...

Yet, it is true that prices have stabilized during these past years...maybe because the Russians have disappeared.

The same goes for the exchange rate...around 2004 the dollar was about 44 baht...then quickly went down and stabilized...even though there is probably much more way down to come...

Edited March 31, 2018 by Brunolem

[newnative]

31 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Rule number one when making a case: do not assume that your personal situation can be taken as a standard!

I am not going to get into examples of prices increases in Thailand because it would take pages...but they do exist, besides the rent of your condo...

As for your 70% pension increase over 5 years, I can guarantee you that my French mother didn't get that...she was lucky if she got 7% during these years.

Finally, about 15 years ago in Pattaya (in a famous go-go on second road), you could get the bar fine, the short time room with jacuzzi upstairs, and the lady...for 1,200 baht.

As far as I know, these days such an amount may cover the bar fine...

 

    Very true regarding your rule #1 but it's also very true that housing accounts for the largest part of the monthly budget for many people.  When I lived in the US, in an expensive part of the country, half my monthly salary went to keep a roof over my head.  Even in Thailand, I was initially spending 20,000 baht a month on rent in 2010 when my pension at that time was around 70,000 baht.  So, it is significant that keeping that roof over your head really hasn't doubled in Thailand and, in some cases, prices have gone down and in others remained fairly stable.

[newnative]

2 hours ago, Brunolem said:

That's right.

Prices were very stable until the massive arrival of the Russians, around 2005.

From then on, they exploded and quickly doubled.

A few examples...

With a few friends, we bought studios in 2004 in a new condo on soi 17, in Pattaya, for an average price of 700,000 baht.

Soon after 2010, they were selling at 1,5 million...

For many years the Big Mac menu was unchanged at 99 baht...check now...

A movie ticket was at 80 baht until 2006...then jumped to 180 baht.

My favorite tuna...in olive oil...was at 23 baht a can...and jumped to 42 baht...

Yet, it is true that prices have stabilized during these past years...maybe because the Russians have disappeared.

The same goes for the exchange rate...around 2004 the dollar was about 44 baht...then quickly went down and stabilized...even though there is probably much more way down to come...

  So, it wasn't all bad. You doubled your money on the studio you bought.  

[luk AJ]

That's right.
Prices were very stable until the massive arrival of the Russians, around 2005.
From then on, they exploded and quickly doubled.
A few examples...
With a few friends, we bought studios in 2004 in a new condo on soi 17, in Pattaya, for an average price of 700,000 baht.
Soon after 2010, they were selling at 1,5 million...
For many years the Big Mac menu was unchanged at 99 baht...check now...
A movie ticket was at 80 baht until 2006...then jumped to 180 baht.
My favorite tuna...in olive oil...was at 23 baht a can...and jumped to 42 baht...
Yet, it is true that prices have stabilized during these past years...maybe because the Russians have disappeared.
The same goes for the exchange rate...around 2004 the dollar was about 44 baht...then quickly went down and stabilized...even though there is probably much more way down to come...

Are you suggesting the Russians are responsible for the doubled prices?? We have something in common, I also like the tuna in olive oil!


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[mauGR1]

Out of curiosity, the other day i did a google search for  " effects of weather on humans "

Apparently, in few words, the warm weather makes people more gullible and willing to take gambles.

In which way it relates on the OP,  i'll let you guess.

[Brunolem]

1 hour ago, luk AJ said:

Are you suggesting the Russians are responsible for the doubled prices?? 
Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Yes I am!

In fact, many of us living in Pattaya long before the Russian invasion witnessed the rapid change.

The Russians came, having clearly not much experience in travelling, especially in Asia, and paid whatever was asked, because it was so cheap, you know.

They bought condos by the dozen, with no downpayment and low monthly payments (until the ruble went down 50% almost overnight, when they stopped paying and all constructions were stopped).

It is thanks to them that Pattaya offers taxi meters at 300 baht, instead of 30 baht elsewhere.

It is also thanks to them that so many 5 star hotels have been built that now stand empty...

 

Another price increase that comes to my mind: for years, SP coffeeshops were selling slices of cake, like marble cake, at 10 baht...which I bought very often...then the price suddenly and quickly went up to 24 baht, where I think it remains...and I stopped buying...

Edited April 1, 2018 by Brunolem

[poanoi]

when i left 3 years ago, standard cost of massage was 200,

now its 150.

my memory is a bit more foggy about lady drinks, but i think they were a tad cheaper 3 years ago.

(alternatively i was just too drunk to give a shit)

the same room now is same cost, but include free internet

Edited April 1, 2018 by poanoi

[Straight8]

I would never have regrets. The day that it comes to feel like it was the wrong move, what I would do is just pack up and move back home.

 

Oh that's right, many fools here, sold up everything, burnt all bridges thinking they found utopia...and basically got nothing to go too.

 

[Brunolem]

11 hours ago, newnative said:

    Very true regarding your rule #1 but it's also very true that housing accounts for the largest part of the monthly budget for many people.  When I lived in the US, in an expensive part of the country, half my monthly salary went to keep a roof over my head.  Even in Thailand, I was initially spending 20,000 baht a month on rent in 2010 when my pension at that time was around 70,000 baht.  So, it is significant that keeping that roof over your head really hasn't doubled in Thailand and, in some cases, prices have gone down and in others remained fairly stable.

Focusing on housing (rental) is like cherrypicking.

Yes, rents have been stable, or even declining, but there is reason for that: overbuilding!

China is not alone with its 65 million empty units, overbuilding appears to be an East Asian syndrome.

Thais have built without counting (nothing new here), as if the whole world was coming to stay there, half of it in Pattaya alone!

The result is that there is way much more supply than demand, hence the low rents.

This is not true however when it comes to buying, because the owners would rather go bankrupt than selling at a loss (of money and face).

Now, I am not sure that housing is the largest part of the average expat's budget, because many of them don't care about comfort (staying in simple rooms at 5,000 baht a month with no hot water), keeping the bulk of their money for much more important expenses, which there is no need to describe here...

[newnative]

31 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Focusing on housing (rental) is like cherrypicking.

Yes, rents have been stable, or even declining, but there is reason for that: overbuilding!

China is not alone with its 65 million empty units, overbuilding appears to be an East Asian syndrome.

Thais have built without counting (nothing new here), as if the whole world was coming to stay there, half of it in Pattaya alone!

The result is that there is way much more supply than demand, hence the low rents.

This is not true however when it comes to buying, because the owners would rather go bankrupt than selling at a loss (of money and face).

Now, I am not sure that housing is the largest part of the average expat's budget, because many of them don't care about comfort (staying in simple rooms at 5,000 baht a month with no hot water), keeping the bulk of their money for much more important expenses, which there is no need to describe here...

     Focusing on the cost of a can of tuna or a hamburger could also be seen as cherry picking.   You lament the rise in movie ticket prices;  I can assure you they were also much cheaper in the US in 2006, as well.  Prices for lots of things have gone up in that time frame, and not just in Thailand. 

     I focus on housing because it can be a big expense to tackle, but made easier in Thailand.  And, in my opinion, more important by far than the cost of a can of tuna.  

    If you're on a tight budget, you have a much wider choice of rentals to choose from than you would likely have back in your native country.  For example, for 8,000 baht a month I could rent a small condo at Lumpini Seaview, close to the beach.  Not only does it have hot water, it also has a/c, a nice swimming pool, gym, library, and garage parking.  Most units have seaviews.  Certainly not palatial but likely nicer than anything back home at that price--if you could even find anything at that price. 

     If you're on a bigger budget, you're also better off than you'd likely be back home.  If you prefer to rent, you have a wide choice of rentals, both condos and houses, at prices that have not risen dramatically in your time frame and are cheaper than what you would likely find back home.  

     If buying is your choice, things are even better.  Take you, for example.  You bought your condo for 700,000 baht back in 2005.  If you've held on to it as your housing, you've saved a ton of money in rent over those years.  But, even better is the savings on monthly maintenance costs and taxes you've saved compared to your home country.  Remember my saying that when I first arrived in 2010 I was spending 20,000 baht a month of my monthly income of 70,000 baht on a studio condo?  Now, my monthly income is higher but I'm only spending 3,000 baht a month for condo maintenance on the 2 bedroom condo I own.  Which leaves me plenty of money left over for tuna, burgers, and movie tickets.  

     

[Gruff]

2 hours ago, Straight8 said:

I would never have regrets. The day that it comes to feel like it was the wrong move, what I would do is just pack up and move back home.

 

Oh that's right, many fools here, sold up everything, burnt all bridges thinking they found utopia...and basically got nothing to go too.

 

 

The great majority of us will make big mistakes at sometime in our life. I have not made them in Thailand because i made a few whoppers when i was in the UK and eventually learnt. Ironically 'cock ups' made in Thailand are considered stupidity those in home country 'unfortunate' . Attacking people  facing a difficult position as fools is not helpful!

[giddyup]

2 hours ago, Straight8 said:

I would never have regrets. The day that it comes to feel like it was the wrong move, what I would do is just pack up and move back home.

 

Oh that's right, many fools here, sold up everything, burnt all bridges thinking they found utopia...and basically got nothing to go too.

 

Not all of us have mom and dad's basement to move back to.

[Peterw42]

1 minute ago, giddyup said:

Not all of us have mom and dad's basement to move back to.

Or post from, lol

[seancbk]

17 hours ago, Lacessit said:

19 hours ago, Brunolem said:

We all know that the official inflation numbers are massaged in order to keep it low...it looks good for the country and it allows to limit as much as possible the increase of anything indexed on inflation, including retirement pensions.

In Europe, many countries manage to not raise at all for many years, thanks to the lack of (official) inflation.

Anyway, here in Thailand, inflation is running fast...over the last 10 to 12 years, prices have doubled on average.

In the meantime, retirement pensions have certainly not doubled and currencies like the dollar or the euro have lost 30%...painful indeed...

Really? My condo rent has actually decreased from 10,000 baht/month to 8500 baht/month over the last 5 years. My Australian part pension has increased from $400 to $700 per fortnight in the same time frame.

AFAIK, in Chiang Mai the price of fruit and vegetables in season is unchanged. And if you are interested in other aspects, the price of pussy hasn't changed.

 

My condo rent hasn't changed in 6 years, then again I've also not renewed the one year lease and I've not seen or heard from my landlady since the day I signed the lease.  Guess I'm just lucky.

Prices of some things may have risen (food, beer etc) but I don't really notice or care.  

[seancbk]

18 hours ago, DonnyT said:

18 hours ago, gamini said:

 I have never felt disrespect from any Thais.

How about when you visit a National Park or Immigration?

Never felt even slightly disrespected at Immigration, in fact the opposite, I always get treated well.  The waiting around is a pain but that's just par for the course.  

As for National Parks, I've never been to one and probably never will.   I don't understand the attraction of driving miles from Bangkok just to look at some trees or whatever.  

[Brunolem]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

But, even better is the savings on monthly maintenance costs and taxes you've saved compared to your home country. 

There is no question that the cost of life in Thailand, even after the last decade's price increases, remains cheaper than in the West.

Yet, that is straying away from the original issue which is not about comparing Thailand and homecountry, but rather to determine if there are better destinations for expats living on a tight budget, especially those who might still have many years in front of them.

 

[Gruff]

53 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

There is no question that the cost of life in Thailand, even after the last decade's price increases, remains cheaper than in the West.

Yet, that is straying away from the original issue which is not about comparing Thailand and homecountry, but rather to determine if there are better destinations for expats living on a tight budget, especially those who might still have many years in front of them.

 

Bulgaria is definitely cheaper especially for someone who likes a pint! Unless you are into sking the winters can be a bit cold!

[Lacessit]

20 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Rule number one when making a case: do not assume that your personal situation can be taken as a standard!

I am not going to get into examples of prices increases in Thailand because it would take pages...but they do exist, besides the rent of your condo...

As for your 70% pension increase over 5 years, I can guarantee you that my French mother didn't get that...she was lucky if she got 7% during these years.

Finally, about 15 years ago in Pattaya (in a famous go-go on second road), you could get the bar fine, the short time room with jacuzzi upstairs, and the lady...for 1,200 baht.

As far as I know, these days such an amount may cover the bar fine...

 

Rule number one: Don't assume my personal situation is an isolated example. AFAIK there are many expats in Chiang Mai that find the same living costs as I do. There is a glut of apartments and houses here, and landlords are desperate for good tenants. Plenty of day markets and roadside stalls with fresh vegetables and fruit, reasonably priced.

I think everyone knows prices in Pattaya and Phuket reflect the dubious cachet those cities have. And Bangkok is significantly more than the living cost in CM.

Somewhat ironic that the French, who regard themselves as the pinnacle of civilisation, should be somewhat parsimonious with their pensioners.

[greenchair]

On 3/30/2018 at 7:11 AM, dotpoom said:

Sure, I miss sitting at the fire back home waiting to die in the freezing cold, at a one bar electric fire, in a room where I cannot afford the rent ( like I miss a hole in the head).

Yes, and having to live with strangers I hate, so that we can share the rent. 

Having to choose between shampoo or soap powder. cheese or butter. And not putting the chocolate bar in the trolley because I can't afford none of it. 

Wearing 6 layers of clothing and a hat. 

Not having money to go to the doctor and waste my money on insurance. 

No photocopy shops. 

No holidays. And so on. 

 

[greenchair]

I think a lot of people end up unhappy because of the visa issue. It gives a feeling of not belonging , having no rights, and a constant niggling feeling of stress every 6 months before it is due. Even pr has it's limits. After 20 years, I finally took the bull by the horns and applied for citizenship. Since receiving it after only 2 years of headache, 

My whole attitude and life has changed in Thailand. The feeling of freedom to take any job I please, buy a small home that is not a 1 room studio and not having to do yearly visas is indiscriptable. Marriage visa, pr, retirement visa, visa visa all contribute to insurmountable anxiety and if planning to spend your life here you should steadily work towards citizenship. 

My only regret is that I didn't do it sooner. 

[Peterw42]

9 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Yes, and having to live with strangers I hate, so that we can share the rent. 

Having to choose between shampoo or soap powder. cheese or butter. And not putting the chocolate bar in the trolley because I can't afford none of it. 

Wearing 6 layers of clothing and a hat. 

Not having money to go to the doctor and waste my money on insurance. 

No photocopy shops. 

No holidays. And so on. 

 

I can relate, and agree, to all your points but scratching my head about "No photocopy shops". 

[Peterw42]

2 minutes ago, greenchair said:

I think a lot of people end up unhappy because of the visa issue. It gives a feeling of not belonging , having no rights, and a constant niggling feeling of stress every 6 months before it is due. Even pr has it's limits. After 20 years, I finally took the bull by the horns and applied for citizenship. Since receiving it after only 2 years of headache, 

My whole attitude and life has changed in Thailand. The feeling of freedom to take any job I please, buy a small home that is not a 1 room studio and not having to do yearly visas is indiscriptable. Marriage visa, pr, retirement visa, visa visa all contribute to insurmountable anxiety and if planning to spend your life here you should steadily work towards citizenship. 

My only regret is that I didn't do it sooner. 

I imagine it would give a sense of security etc but unfortunately not an option for many of us on retire extension. No path to residency unless you have paid tax etc.

[poanoi]

9 minutes ago, greenchair said:

I think a lot of people end up unhappy because of the visa issue. It gives a feeling of not belonging , having no rights, and a constant niggling feeling of stress every 6 months before it is due. Even pr has it's limits. After 20 years, I finally took the bull by the horns and applied for citizenship. Since receiving it after only 2 years of headache, 

My whole attitude and life has changed in Thailand. The feeling of freedom to take any job I please, buy a small home that is not a 1 room studio and not having to do yearly visas is indiscriptable. Marriage visa, pr, retirement visa, visa visa all contribute to insurmountable anxiety and if planning to spend your life here you should steadily work towards citizenship. 

My only regret is that I didn't do it sooner. 

yes, the visa issue will haunt me to death,

i'd get outa here to caribbean belonging to EU today if my back was up to it,

and i'd stay here to death without worry if there was no visa hassle

[Brunolem]

16 hours ago, Lacessit said:

There is a glut of apartments and houses here, and landlords are desperate for good tenants.

 

Somewhat ironic that the French, who regard themselves as the pinnacle of civilisation, should be somewhat parsimonious with their pensioners.

I explained in a subsequent post that there was overbuilding and thus many empty units, the reason for low or stable rents.

Now, if you want to say that prices, save for the rents, have not easily doubled since around 2005, feel free to provide examples...

 

With regards to France, well, civilized or not (less and less in my opinion), the country is bankrupt like any other Western country, especially when it comes to retirement funds.

 

So, the powers that be are playing a game of extend and pretend, with the help of central banks buying hands over fists whatever crap comes on the market in order to show that everything is fine...until it won't be...

Edited April 2, 2018 by Brunolem

[Spaniel]

29 minutes ago, greenchair said:

I think a lot of people end up unhappy because of the visa issue. It gives a feeling of not belonging , having no rights, and a constant niggling feeling of stress every 6 months before it is due. Even pr has it's limits. After 20 years, I finally took the bull by the horns and applied for citizenship. Since receiving it after only 2 years of headache, 

My whole attitude and life has changed in Thailand. The feeling of freedom to take any job I please, buy a small home that is not a 1 room studio and not having to do yearly visas is indiscriptable. Marriage visa, pr, retirement visa, visa visa all contribute to insurmountable anxiety and if planning to spend your life here you should steadily work towards citizenship. 

My only regret is that I didn't do it sooner. 

I guess I am a bit more laid back then most people.     I dont have any niggling feeling of stress every 6 months before my visa is due and I have been on the retirement visa for the last  18 years.      Insurmountable anxiety!    The visa process is simple although I would agree the Immigration office can get a bit crowded.     Been happily married for 30 years so I let my wife do the house buying, freedom to take any job? well I'm retired.      I can't agree with your advice that if planning to spend ones life here then you should apply for citizenship.     I am happy to be a citizen of the USA

[greenchair]

5 minutes ago, Spaniel said:

I guess I am a bit more laid back then most people.     I dont have any niggling feeling of stress every 6 months before my visa is due and I have been on the retirement visa for the last  18 years.      Insurmountable anxiety!    The visa process is simple although I would agree the Immigration office can get a bit crowded.     Been happily married for 30 years so I let my wife do the house buying, freedom to take any job? well I'm retired.      I can't agree with your advice that if planning to spend ones life here then you should apply for citizenship.     I am happy to be a citizen of the USA

You are entitled to your opinion. Though I have spoken to and read about thousands that complain about those things. Not everyone gets 30 years of marriage and a trusted thai wife. Not to mention that being so totally dependent on another human being is not for everyone. In these modern times, there is no reason why you can't have dual citizenship and most people that have a bit of spare cash and time have a dual citizenship of some kind. I am grateful to have an Asian citizenship and a western citizenship that gives me great options and freedom of movement. I would love to attain a 3rd citizenship. 

[greenchair]

50 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

I imagine it would give a sense of security etc but unfortunately not an option for many of us on retire extension. No path to residency unless you have paid tax etc.

Yes, I have heard that. 

Bit sad. But