Israeli forces kill 16 Palestinians in Gaza border protests - Gaza medics

[Morch]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

That's twice now in this thread you have presumed to know what I think. Please don't. I have met many Israelis in my travels including within Israel who are fine decent people. I want them and Palestinians to enjoy the same safe peaceful happy lifestyle that I have.

 

Yes, it is as simple as that as a basis for the finer points of negotiations...the 3 cornerstone points I mentioned above for a lasting peace, and for Israel to have a mainly Jewish state and still remain a democracy. Israel has never tried it. Always more land grabs, no to a divided Jerusalem, no to return/compensation for those refugees who want it. Same compensation deal for ethnically cleansed Jews too btw.

 

Of course that can't happen overnight and security concerns must be addressed, but when you have peace, full international recognition and commerce, and fully employed populations, minds tend to drift away from violent confrontations. People focus on the core issues in their lives.

 

I have travelled extensively and the world over all people want is safety, freedom, a job, good health, and a better future for their children.

 

Israel's actions in the OP is just digging a deeper hole of bitterness and animosity.

 

I'm not presuming anything. Having read thousands of your posts over the years, I'm quite confident regarding what you are about. As such I do not buy into your nonsense. What you consider "peaceful happy lifestyle" is not necessarily that, nor does it necessarily relate much to prevalent positions on both sides. If you had any measure of such goodwill - you wouldn't be making even half of them nasty, vehement posts you're so fond of - and you'd be able to discuss the less flattering aspects of the Palestinian side. Since you persist in both, no reason to assume your attitude is different.

 

And no, it is not "that simple" other in the intentionally simplistic mind of some. You keep bringing the same points over and over again, while flat out refusing to acknowledge facts and reality - such as the Palestinians not being committed to the Arab/Saudi Initiative, that conditions in the ME and among Israel's neighbors shifted, and that the disagreements do not amount to finer points, nor are they easily bridged.

 

All your one sided tirades fail to address that the fact that the Palestinians are not (and were not) as ready and willing as you imply, nor are they in any semblance of agreement among themselves as to the issues. For you, it's all about Israel only. Here comes your usual nonsense bit about Israel having all the power yada yada....We've been through this on multiple topics.

 

I have little interest in your accounts of your travels. As others pointed out, you can say whatever you like. Your posts do not indicate in-depth understanding of either society, but are more a repetitive recounting of shallow propagandist extreme views. There is hardly nothing in them which actually pertains to compromise and peace. It's all a one sided show as far as you're concerned.

 

[Jingthing]

Superficially based on the casualties it does appear that the IDF is using excessive force. But without a thorough study of each case, it's hard to know the truth. I think it's in Israel's best interest to try very hard to use softer methods for humanitarian reasons of course but also because the bad PR from this does play right into the Palestinian propaganda machine. I'm sure there has been massive provocation though ... and I don't think anyone is shocked that provoking armed soldiers isn't a healthy activity. Also from the Israeli right wing government POV, when there are threats to IDF soldiers, being softer will ultimately mean an increase in IDF casualties. Not an easy thing to sell to the families either. It's a hard thing to balance but it does appear there isn't much balance to speak of.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Jingthing

[Morch]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

Take a look at the map. It's the West Bank I am talking about..a 50 year plus illegal occupation that was only meant to be temporary. Instead Israel against international law has poured in 600,000 Jewish migrants who live in Jewish only settlements on land confiscated from Palestinian owners. Two separate systems there  ...laws, roads, checkpoints, health, education, human and civil rights. Total control of Palestinian lives without a vote...that's not democracy, it's apartheid.

 

Israel occupies and controls the lives of Palestinians in Gaza in a different way...blockade.

 

All these Palestinians have been herded out of areas needed for people who have just stepped off an El Al jet from NYC and have never set eyes on the place before but get preferential treatment on the basis solely of their religion. That's not democracy.

 

That's what the OP protest is all about.

 

Quote

That's what the OP protest is all about.

 

Not really, unless one is uninformed with regard to Palestinian politics or takes political statements at face value.

There are, indeed, yearly marches, demonstrations and protests to signify Land Day (30 March). Their scope and the level of participation varies. This year's is larger for two reasons - (a) the 70'th anniversary of the Palestinian Nakba Day (coinciding with Israel's Independence Day), and (b) the ongoing deterioration of conditions in the Gaza Strip.

 

The former means that there will be an effort to maintain these protests until Nakba Day (15 May), while the latter assures Hamas (but also Fatah) support and approval - aimed at diverting negative public sentiment regarding their failure to bridge rifts and improve conditions in the Strip. On previous years, where such issues were somewhat less critical from Hamas (and again, Fatah) point of view, support for such initiatives was limited, due to fears that things will get out of control and public sentiment turned the "wrong" way.

 

So a whole lot of what is happening relates to Palestinian domestic issues. Look this way, not that  way sort of thing.

Casualties serve this purpose just fine, fueling more anger toward Israel, and giving Palestinian some reprieve from negative public opinion. Hardliners among them are also thrilled, as each casualty drives the prospects of peaceful resolution farther away. Since it's one of them "national" things which leaders (even reluctant and relatively moderate ones) cannot avoid taking part in - it's got a dynamic of its own, fueling ever more bellicose statements and such.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

>> and they live in Gaza "Israeli free"

 

Wish you would tell that to those psychopaths in IDF uniforms selecting their targets for murder.

 

70% of Gazans ..themselves, their parents or their grandparents once lived in Israel, before they were ethnically cleansed to make way for a purer state. Wonder if 70% of the the snipers can say the same thing about their relatives.

 

I wonder how many times you'll repeat your lies....

[Judo Chop]

Hundreds of Palestinian kids have been killed while building Hamas' terror tunnels from Gaza.

Where are the tears from those who purport to support the 'poor Palestinians'?

Or do you just ignore and accept this fact because you cannot blame Israel?

 

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, JOC said:

Think outside the box......

Move Israel to the USA....Make it the 51th state...

Would save US $ 38 billion yearly......Would lower the Israeli defense spending from $ 15 billion to zero.

Offer all Israeli Jews a free move and free settlement in the new state....It would cost a lot of money, but is doable...

Those who choose to stay(in the present Israel) will become Palestinian citizens and can keep their properties, land etc. ...

Those who choose to leave will become American citizens and will be compensated for what they leave behind...

The new Israel will have no security concerns.....The Palestinians can return to their land...

Win/win...

 

Not that your nonsense is even halfway relevant to the topic - but the same sort of inane thinking can be applied the other way around. Arab countries already hosting Palestinian "refugees" can grant the citizenship, and allow Palestinians residing in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to immigrate there as well.

 

Guess this wouldn't go down all that well with some of those spewing such views as above.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

but their bullets, drones, artillery shells, and fighter planes aren't.

 

Doesn't seem to be much of an issue for you when rockets and bullets originating from the Gaza Strip...

[Morch]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

USA along with several other colonialist countries have acknowledged and tried to compensate for the cruelty of their ancestors' ethnic cleansing. Israel is still in a state of denial.

 

A talking point which was addressed on previous occasions, let's try again: All them countries addressed these issues decades after the facts, if not more than that. In other words, responsibility is assumed when the other population is no longer a threat to the hegemony of the ruler. You would say (we've done this song and dance) that for this or that bogus reason, Israel should act differently and be held to a different standard.

 

As for state of denial - more nonsense. Lumping together all Israeli political views is either dishonest or ignorant. Pick one. Some on Israel's political (predominantly religious) right are, most Israelis (regardless of the way they vote) - not so much.

 

And, of course, the above would necessitate accepting that Israel's case is similar to other countries - which could certainly be debated. This topic is not quite about that, though.

[Rimmer]

A racist troll post also an off topic and replies have been removed

[amirravon]

God bless the Israeli Defense forces.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, amirravon said:

God bless the Israeli Defense forces.

True dat. No IDF equals no Israel. Sadly, Israel can't ever be like Costa Rica!

[Elfin]

22 minutes ago, amirravon said:

God bless the Israeli Defense forces.

May God curse the IDF

BDS

[metisdead]

Some more off topic posts and the replies have been removed. 

[cabinfever]

48 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

True dat. No IDF equals no Israel. Sadly, Israel can't ever be like Costa Rica!

So you think they're doing God's work?

[sanemax]

I will leave it to God to make his own mind up............although I doubt whether he reads Thai Visa

[Jingthing]

15 minutes ago, cabinfever said:

So you think they're doing God's work?

It's just an expression. Obviously the IDF has done many bad things, but Israel would not exist without them, and I think Israel existing is a good thing. Good, God, just an O away.

[cabinfever]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It's just an expression. Obviously the IDF has done many bad things, but Israel would not exist without them, and I think Israel existing is a good thing. Good, God, just an O away.

Fair enough.

[metisdead]

A post containing content which was copy and pasted from another site has been removed as it was in violation of fair use policy. 

[Dumbastheycome]

12 hours ago, malagateddy said:

I have little sympathy for the Palestinian people.
They have had countless amounts of money flung at them thro the years..but always resort to VIOLENCE.
Perhaps if the people rose up against hamas and got rid of them..a peaceful solution could be reached.



Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Erm ?  Consider  the possibility  that if  they were  to be  given back  territory that has been forcibly taken instead  of money in pathetic  compensation  perhaps  the  cause  for  violence would  cease  to  have  any legitimacy  by  either  the  displaced   general  Palestinians  or  the   militant  Hamas.

But no. It  is  much more convenient  to   as  usual  create an  angry  dog  and  continue  to poke it with a  stick then   claim  some  justification  in declaring  all  dogs  of that  breed  are  dangerous !  

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

Erm ?  Consider  the possibility  that if  they were  to be  given back  territory that has been forcibly taken instead  of money in pathetic  compensation  perhaps  the  cause  for  violence would  cease  to  have  any legitimacy  by  either  the  displaced   general  Palestinians  or  the   militant  Hamas.

But no. It  is  much more convenient  to   as  usual  create an  angry  dog  and  continue  to poke it with a  stick then   claim  some  justification  in declaring  all  dogs  of that  breed  are  dangerous !  

 

 

 

Your post does not compute.

We're talking about the Gaza border here.

The land in Gaza was returned by Israel and then Gaza chose to be led by a political force dedicated to ending Israel. 

So your theory is give land back and the Palestinians will be happy. Sure they will, if you mean all of Israel. 

Yes, understood the living situation in Gaza is crap but don't see that is all to blame of Israel. 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Jingthing

[dexterm]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

 

Not really, unless one is uninformed with regard to Palestinian politics or takes political statements at face value.

There are, indeed, yearly marches, demonstrations and protests to signify Land Day (30 March). Their scope and the level of participation varies. This year's is larger for two reasons - (a) the 70'th anniversary of the Palestinian Nakba Day (coinciding with Israel's Independence Day), and (b) the ongoing deterioration of conditions in the Gaza Strip.

 

The former means that there will be an effort to maintain these protests until Nakba Day (15 May), while the latter assures Hamas (but also Fatah) support and approval - aimed at diverting negative public sentiment regarding their failure to bridge rifts and improve conditions in the Strip. On previous years, where such issues were somewhat less critical from Hamas (and again, Fatah) point of view, support for such initiatives was limited, due to fears that things will get out of control and public sentiment turned the "wrong" way.

 

So a whole lot of what is happening relates to Palestinian domestic issues. Look this way, not that  way sort of thing.

Casualties serve this purpose just fine, fueling more anger toward Israel, and giving Palestinian some reprieve from negative public opinion. Hardliners among them are also thrilled, as each casualty drives the prospects of peaceful resolution farther away. Since it's one of them "national" things which leaders (even reluctant and relatively moderate ones) cannot avoid taking part in - it's got a dynamic of its own, fueling ever more bellicose statements and such.

You neatly sweep under the carpet that Israel entrenched its snipers 2 days ago and Israeli generals predicted casualties...wonder how they knew that!

 

You also sweep under the carpet the fact that the 16 deaths and 1000s of injuries are all the result of Israeli bullets and tear gas, not Palestinian. As though the individual psychopath who selects who should live and who should die bears no reponsibilty. I was just following orders. 

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by dexterm

[Morch]

35 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

Erm ?  Consider  the possibility  that if  they were  to be  given back  territory that has been forcibly taken instead  of money in pathetic  compensation  perhaps  the  cause  for  violence would  cease  to  have  any legitimacy  by  either  the  displaced   general  Palestinians  or  the   militant  Hamas.

But no. It  is  much more convenient  to   as  usual  create an  angry  dog  and  continue  to poke it with a  stick then   claim  some  justification  in declaring  all  dogs  of that  breed  are  dangerous !  

 

 

 

 

The statements of Hamas leaders during the current protests refer to the Palestinians returning to lands which are Israel. If your post is about Israel allowing this to happen - very doubtful. Countries do not choose outright suicide, most times. What you seem to be saying is that if the Palestinians would get everything that they want, they will have no more legitimate complaints. Problem is that granting all Palestinian demands implies no Israel. 

[dexterm]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I wonder how many times you'll repeat your lies....

You have been caught out in yet another falsehood!

 

"In 2010 approximately 1.6 million Palestinians lived in the Gaza Strip, almost 1.0 million of them UN-registered refugees."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#Demographics

 

..refugees from where.?...Israel,,that place they are trying to cross the fence into to get home. And who made them refugees..Israelis..the same ones firing  live ammuntion at them  preventing them from going home.

[i claudius]

Just goes to show how brave the Palestinians are to resist unarmed against the war crime of ethnic cleansing. While the fully protected and heavily armed IDF snipers of the supposedly most moral army in the world from behind a steel fence and entrenched positions fire live ammunition to murder in cold blood with impunity those they consider ring leaders. Israel has one of the most evil regimes in the world today. The ironies of history are astounding.

Rubbish pure rubbish.Israel has built a great country while the Palastinians moan complain riot and live in a pit doing nothing to help build a better life for themselves

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[dexterm]

4 hours ago, Morch said:

 

A talking point which was addressed on previous occasions, let's try again: All them countries addressed these issues decades after the facts, if not more than that. In other words, responsibility is assumed when the other population is no longer a threat to the hegemony of the ruler. You would say (we've done this song and dance) that for this or that bogus reason, Israel should act differently and be held to a different standard.

 

As for state of denial - more nonsense. Lumping together all Israeli political views is either dishonest or ignorant. Pick one. Some on Israel's political (predominantly religious) right are, most Israelis (regardless of the way they vote) - not so much.

 

And, of course, the above would necessitate accepting that Israel's case is similar to other countries - which could certainly be debated. This topic is not quite about that, though.

So you are saying that other countries took decades/centuries to apologize for their mistreatment, dispossession and heinous crimes against indigenous peoples, so lets allow Israel the same latitude..unbelievably pathetic excuse!

 

Surely Israel should have learnt something from other colonial powers' mistakes.

 

One day there will be a truth and reconciliation tribunal in Israel and today's events will be part of it.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, dexterm said:

You neatly sweep under the carpet that Israel entrenched its snipers 2 days ago and Israeli generals predicted casualties...wonder how they knew that!

 

You also sweep under the carpet the fact that the 16 deaths and 1000s of injuries are all the result of Israeli bullets and tear gas, not Palestinian. As though the individual psychopath who selects who should live and who should die bears no reponsibilty. I was just following orders. 

 

 

I did not sweep anything under any carpet. Addressed the very same nonsense on a previous post.

 

Assessments and warning that things could go south were aired long ago, since talk of the mass protests started. And to head off the usual comments - such comments were made both by Israeli and Palestinians (including the organizers). It was pretty obvious to anyone familiar with those involved and how such things go, that things would deteriorate quite quickly - hence, predicting casualties is neither surprising nor sinister. It's just a realistic take on how these things go.

 

That the IDF deployed extra troops, and specialized forces (like snipers) is pretty much what's expected. The point of having snipers, rather than regular troops is to decrease situations in which improperly armed and trained soldiers face protestors. There would have probably been more bloodshed otherwise.

 

And, of course, there was no claim that the Palestinian casualties weren't caused by the IDF - so sweeping under the carpet how? What are you on about there? As for the psychological assessment you toss in, I'd rather rely or more hinged opinions.

 

In all your many vehement posts, you still haven't found the time to explain how such protests are to be handled? That is, leaving aside your political rants, which regardless of their lack of merit aren't relevant to dealing with current, ongoing events. In practical terms, rather than soap box nonsense - what's the IDF's alternative? Let Palestinians storm the fence? Not return fire when shot at? Wait until a mass of protestors is already at the fence or over it and then open fire? Do tell.

[dexterm]

7 minutes ago, i claudius said:

Rubbish pure rubbish.Israel has built a great country while the Palastinians moan complain riot and live in a pit doing nothing to help build a better life for themselves

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Israel built a great country by using the free land they confiscated from Palestinian owners while ethnically cleansing most of them into Gaza and the West Bank. Now they want even more free land..but that's another story

 

The Palestinians were attempting to do something about it today, but you see it is the supremacist Israelis who have all the guns and planes and the ability to blockade and control every facet of Palestinian lives. Makes it kinda hard to get out of the pit.

[Scott]

Post reported and removed.

 

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, dexterm said:

You have been caught out in yet another falsehood!

 

"In 2010 approximately 1.6 million Palestinians lived in the Gaza Strip, almost 1.0 million of them UN-registered refugees."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#Demographics

 

..refugees from where.?...Israel,,that place they are trying to cross the fence into to get home. And who made them refugees..Israelis..the same ones firing  live ammuntion at them  preventing them from going home.

 

I haven't been "caught" in no "falsehood". You were the one repeatedly making unfounded claims regarding IDF soldiers, hence going for the lame spin.

 

Palestinian refugee status is unique, in that it passes from one generation to the next, including all rights involved. There is no provision on this level for refugee related to other conflicts. So a Palestinian "refugee" (and even his parents) would not necessarily actually be from another place. Kinda expected you'll go on about "falsehoods", while posting one....

 

And once more, Israel is not obligated to grant access at will to hostiles. That's just your fantasy.

 

 

[poohy]

Israel live in  a tough back yard!

ITS a shame its not their backyard!!!!!!!

 

Animals!