catastrophe: chase bank froze my accounts

[theguyfromanotherforum]

4 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

BMO Harris is the private banking arm of BMO. When Harris was purchased out of Chicago it was to expand the US operations. I am told that BMO Harris is subject to additional US banking compliance regulations. I noticed that BMO  changed its Thai correspondent bank from  SCB to Bangkok Bank  two years ago. No idea why. 

If you ever get jammed up again you can consider the dismal Scotia Bank. It owns a large part of Thailand's Thanachart Bank.

 

But I need a us account and BNS doesn't offer it.

[Thaidream]

Since the Ops transfer was rejected and the  'freeze' initiated at the same time- obviously related.

It never ceases to amaze me that banks, governments etc always seem to put on enough restrictions on your own money to give the average person a headache but the 'bad guys' never have a problem getting theirs.

 

Keep everyone posted OP as the trading of information is very helpful to us Expats.

[poohy]

Someone somewhere in the Chase office in Bangkok can help , whether they want to is a different matter!

It maybe worth being preparing to be very patient and taking everything and more info that is needed!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

39 minutes ago, daij1944 said:

wire transfer was within the us (california to michigan) BUT i have a virtual phone not a "real" one. i am fairly sure (not 100%) that i was using a vpn at the time.

 

Especially at the big banks, but even at the smaller ones, the vast majority of the fraud/threat detection activity is triggered by computer monitoring. And I think in general, what those systems tend to look for is activity that in some way is out of the normal pattern for that accountholder. But, each bank is different, and may have their systems configured different ways.

 

With some banks, just trying to log in from outside the U.S. can trigger a problem. With other banks, the problem occurs when you log in from a different place, whether inside the U.S. or outside the U.S.  Or the place/IP address you're logging in from happens to be an address you've never used before in connection with that bank.

 

The best thing is to always log-in from the same U.S. location/area/IP address range, or at least, the same pattern of log-in locations.

[Thaidream]

If you log in from the same computer to Chase On Line banking- never an issue. However- if you attempt log in from another computer in another location- the bank sends a security code to your email or phone and you have to put this in the security alert tab before they allow access.

Also- if you use the ATM frequently  in Thailand and always change locations or countries- the security system doesn't like that and sometimes blocks the transaction. Alos- be aware that inputting the wrong password 3 times in a row may also trigger an alert and the aTM seize the card.

 

As one of the posters indicating- keep a US address and US phone  number-  always log into online banking in the same way and if possible same computer or mobile app.

 

[cyberfarang]

2 hours ago, daij1944 said:

many thanks to everyone. does anyone have any idea why the wire transfer might have triggered the freeze? 

Are you getting interest on the money in your Chase accounts?  If you are then this probably means you have resident accounts in the US and if staying in Thailand for long periods you are no longer resident in the US and therefore not entitled to hold those accounts. 

 

So what`s the story here?

[Jingthing]

The core of these problems is often a major choice expats make --

FAKE being a U.S. resident 

 

OR

 

Be totally open

 

Either choice has pros and cons as far as risks of financial institutions messing with you.

 

The most notorious example is FIDELITY (very popular for IRA accounts).

They actively sniff out expats and if they prove it, they will freeze your account until you repatriate and can prove residence again in a U.S. state.

 

I don't have a gold plated solution. What I do know is that for many of us, this situation has been a huge headache, and it's not going away.

 

People make plans for this before expatriation (hopefully), and then the rules can and often do change. 

 

To add, these kinds of problems are for me a rather significant factor in my consideration to repatriate, which I don't really strongly want to do. So far I've been able to deal with it, but it's a flimsy house built of strings and I wouldn't bet on it continuing to work. 

 

Obviously, everyone has their own personal complications or lack thereof. Luck could be a factor as well. 

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Jingthing

[Thaidream]

You do not have to fake being a Us Resident

 

-Maintain a US Address - friend or family

-Provide a US Phone Number-  friend or family

-File a State and Federal Tax return even if no  money owed using the US Address

-Keep a US DL or State ID Card.

-Use On Line Banking for Social Security and your banking- simply notify them you travelling abroad and use ATMS abroad in same location and sign into on line banking from same location.

- If you use wire transfer-make sure to start the transfer system from the US and speak to the bank about recurring transfers.

 

Never had a problem in many decades except the few times I have changed patterns in ATM withdrawals- then cleared by a call to the security people at the bank.

[JerseytoBKK]

This just happened to me last month. I put in travel notifications on my Chase issued credit cards and debit card.  Never any issues using the cards in Thailand over the last 3 years. Tried for the first time to wire money to my girlfriends account here in Bangkok while I was here. They shut my account and online access.

 

Called them and was put through to the Fraud department. They made me answer some really dumb questions that I had to guess at. Really annoyed me when they insisted on those specific questions rather than letting me provide them lots of other info to prove who I was. After 45 minutes finally got the lock lifted. Was told that the wire transfer initiated from Thailand caused the security shutdown. 

 

After the shutdown was lifted, I was able to put the wire transfer through. 

 

[Jingthing]

You're dreaming.

All of that together, especially filing state tax returns as a state resident is EXACTLY faking being a U.S. resident.

Also when you renew your driver's license you generally have to sign a formal document that you are currently a state resident. 

That might be a serious legal issue if caught lying about that.

It's one thing faking being a U.S. resident, it's another thing being in DENIAL about it. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Jingthing

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

20 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

You do not have to fake being a Us Resident

Provide a US Phone Number-  friend or family the bank.

 

Doesn't even have to be a friend or family member.

 

Google Voice numbers, which are free, work fine for most banking SMS activity, though I believe Wells is an exception to that.

 

The MagicJack service, about $36 a year, provides a real U.S. phone number with free calling to and from U.S. phone numbers, and their smartphone app allows sending and receiving of U.S. SMS for free.

 

FreedomPop is almost free, and its smartphone apps work fine for receiving U.S. SMS messages abroad when connected via your local wifi.

 

And even TMobile has a $3 a month prepaid phone plan that can be used, especially for receiving SMS messages from the U.S.  But you do NOT want to use it for making or receiving U.S. voice calls, as the roaming charge for that is like $2.50+ per minute. Just avoid the voice calls.

 

All in all, having a viable U.S. phone number capable of receiving U.S. SMS messages should be the least of anyone's troubles.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Also when you renew your driver's license you generally have to sign a formal document that you are currently a state resident. 

 

In my state, I've never encountered anything like that, at least regarding repeated license renewals of an existing license. So YMMV on this based on location.

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

In my state, I've never encountered anything like that, at least regarding repeated license renewals of an existing license.

Yeah sure, wait for the transition for the more secure licenses which have strict FEDERAL requirements. 

But short of that, you're right, 50 states, 50 sets of rules. 

 

To add, I'm not saying it's impossible to deal with these issues. I am saying it's an area with potential land mines. That's been my experience and the experience of others, I'm sure.

 

People saying they've been here 20 or 30 years without feeling this have specific personal situations that made that happen but it doesn't prove that will work for that long for other people with different personal situations.

 

It reminds me a bit of 100 year old chain smokers suggesting smoking isn't dangerous just because they did and lived long. That doesn't logically follow. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Jingthing

[Thaidream]

If I am not mistaken- I file a long form State and Federal Tax form which uses different parameters and actually pay more than the local form.  The IRS considers my wife as a US Resident for tax purposes even though she has never been to the US.

 

I consider myself a US Resident since I have never abandoned the US and since I have not filed for Permanent Residence in Thailand- I am here temporarily. When I do business in the US no one asks me where I am - and if they did I would tell them I am temporarily in Thailand which is true.

 

 

[Jingthing]

If that works for you, keep it up!

I think you're kidding yourself but as you are presenting yourself as a U.S. resident to U.S. financial institutions I suppose it doesn't hurt to actually believe that yourself.

 

I do similar but I think I'm more clear eyed about what I'm doing. I feel like it's been my best tactic. I don't like doing it though and I don't believe I'm a U.S. resident. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Jingthing

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The one thing U.S. banks really want, typically, when applying for a new bank account is a DL or state ID card that matches your mailing address.

 

Recently, I was applying for a new account, and their online system allowed for the use/submitting of a passport number OR a DL, so I decided to submit my passport number instead just to see if that would be accepted and work.

 

At that point, their online system didn't automatically accept my application, and a few days later, a bank rep called me and asked if I could submit a copy of my DL since they really needed that to open the account -- even though their own online application allowed for the submission of a passport number instead.

 

That kind experience, with the focus on a DL, is typical of almost every new bank account opening that I can recall.

 

 

 

[Pib]

I recently needed to renew my Hawaii drivers license by mail....can not do online....only by mail or physically going to a DMV office.   I renewed by mail appox 6 years ago which required some medical and eye exam forms and two forms of ID.   However, a few years ago Hawaii implemented new "proof of residence" requirements to compliment the ID requirements.    Proof of residence requires at least two documents/forms of proof you live in the state (prove legal residence)....there is around 18 or so ways/docs to prove legal residence which the state will accept....I could only provide one of the two required forms of legal residence  since I don't live there anymore.  So I let the license expire.

 

Yeap...50 states...50 sets of rules...but all of them are tightening up requirements in one way or another.

 

I recently opened a couple of new accounts at a US bank...ID was required such as Passport, state drivers license or state ID, "or" military ID.  I used my passport since my drivers license had expired.  The bank rep told me if a license is expired it would be rejected by the bank as valid ID.  To provide the ID they send you an email with a weblink...open the weblink and it starts a scan and send module which takes a picture of the front/back side of the ID your are submitting, and the bank's computer analyses the ID and gives an immediate approval or disapproval of the submit ID....if approved the account is fully opened. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Pib

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

People saying they've been here 20 or 30 years without feeling this have specific personal situations that made that happen but it doesn't prove that will work for that long for other people with different personal situations.

 

I agree with you 100% Jing, in that it IS a potential minefield for U.S. expats that can have a lot of hassles and negative impacts depending on how one handles those details.

 

In my case, over many years, I'm just saying I've dealt with those headaches, learned some lessons along the way and good insight gathered from other members here, and managed to find and use a system/habits/method that now have worked for me for a long time, with only very rare problems.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

Yeap...50 states...50 sets of rules...but all of them are tightening up requirements in one way or another.

 

Pib, you know,  for me it hasn't come to that yet. But I have considered the prospect of moving back temporarily, if need be, just long enough to keep and/or re-establish a state DL.

 

For me, for various reasons (banking and driving), it's an important thing to have, not to mention that I don't have a Thai DL. 

 

Or if I was in Hawaii, I'd look long and hard at finding some way to come up with the 2nd of the various 18 allowed documents.

 

Or maybe consider establishing "residency" in a different state that isn't so demanding when it comes to DL renewals.

 

 

[Jingthing]

Last I heard, all the states are transitioning to the federal driver's license rules (needed to board domestic flights without a passport). Probably worth a separate thread but I think the days of "easy" faking state residence for driver's licenses may soon be over. 

 

Kind of a theme here.

You make plans.

They seem like good plans.

But then things change.

 

Like in my Fidelity example, I opened that account FORTY YEARS ago. Hard to predict that firm would turn so nasty towards expats before I even had a thought of what being an expat is. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Jingthing

[Pib]

14 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Pib, you know,  for me it hasn't come to that yet. But I have considered the prospect of moving back temporarily, if need be, just long enough to keep and/or re-establish a state DL.

 

For me, for various reasons (banking and driving), it's an important thing to have, not to mention that I don't have a Thai DL. 

 

Or if I was in Hawaii, I'd look long and hard at finding some way to come up with the 2nd of the various 18 allowed documents.

 

Or maybe consider establishing "residency" in a different state that isn't so demanding when it comes to DL renewals.

 

Actually, I have no real need for U.S. drivers license as you can drive/rent cards in all states with a foreign license like my Thai drivers license although some states may require an international drivers license to supplement the foreign license.  A person can get an international license at their local Thai drivers license office in short order.    And just a few months ago I opened two new U.S. bank accounts by using my U.S. Passport.   For ID purposes, a drivers license is only one of several accepted forms of ID such as passport and military ID, both of which I have.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Pib

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I must say, I'm a bit confused about the OP's situation, as regards two things:

 

1. For general fraud alerts that I'm familiar with, usually, just a phone call to the bank's fraud detection unit will suffice in getting the fraud freeze listed. They'll typically go thru a series of questions with you based on your credit history/reports, and if you answer everything correctly, then they'll lift the freeze and it's back to life as usual. Usually, not a difficult or complicated process.

 

2. Specifically regarding wire transfers, I know there are some banks that when you want to do a FIRST wire transfer with them, they want you to come into the branch and sign some kind of authorizing paperwork. But after that, in most cases AFAIK, the subsequent wires can be done online or with just telephone authorization. At least, that seems to be the normal situation.

 

But in the case where you're doing a first wire and they demand that you come into the branch to sign paperwork, AFAIK, simply attempting the wire first wouldn't normally trigger a total freeze of the account. They'd just decline the wire, tell you to come in, but the rest of the account would remain OK...

 

So, I'm perplexed about what's going on in the OP's situation.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, Pib said:

   And just a few months ago I opened two new U.S. bank accounts by using my U.S. Passport.   For ID purposes, a drivers license is only one of several accepted forms of ID such as passport and military ID, both of which I have.

 

yes, and as I mentioned above, I just ran into a similar situation where they already had my passport, and demanded the U.S. DL in addition. Wouldn't open the new account without it.

 

And when I think back over all the new accounts I've opened in recent years, oftentimes, I'll have used my DL # (not the passport) as part of the online application process, so the bank already has that. And then they'll come back with an additional request to submit a emailed or faxed or mailed copy of the license itself. Again, that's all in the realm of online account applications.

 

 

[Pib]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

yes, and as I mentioned above, I just ran into a similar situation where they already had my passport, and demanded the U.S. DL in addition. Wouldn't open the new account without it.

 

And when I think back over all the new accounts I've opened in recent years, oftentimes, I'll have used my DL # (not the passport) as part of the online application process, so the bank already has that. And then they'll come back with an additional request to submit a emailed or faxed or mailed copy of the license itself. Again, that's all in the realm of online account applications.

 

 

I think most banks just default to asking for the state DL or state ID since almost anyone will have that...even if they don't drive they can still get the state ID if they live in the  state.     Me also over the years I've always used my drivers license or military ID.  But since my state drivers license had  expired in late 2017 I used my passport this time to open the new account in early 2018.  

 

Plus when it comes to renewal although I'm still young enough to get a 8 year license from Hawaii if I could have renewed by mail again.  However, for Hawaii once turning 72 you have to renew every "two" years.

 

https://www.dmv.org/hi-hawaii/renew-license.php

 

Quote

Honolulu County

• 25 to 71 years old: $40 for 8 years.
• 25 years old: $20 for 4 years.
• 72 years old and older: $10 for 2 years

•  
• Other states have similar requirements for renewal for older folks and/or require you to physically show up at a DMV office if of a certain age like at age 70 in California.   Up until age 70 you can also use online or my mail.   Yes, seems around 70 years or age many states get tougher on renewal requirements.

https://www.dmv.org/ca-california/Carenew-license.php

 

 

Quote

Renewal your Drivers License in Person

You must renew your California driver's license in person if:

• You are 70 years old or older.
• Your driver license will expire in more than 60 days.
• Your last 2 renewals were not completed in person.
• You need to take a written test.

• Snapshot regarding CA license renewal from another website

• Quote

   

  Your Driver License

  The Department of Motor Vehicles does not take away your driver license when you reach a certain age. Your mental and/or physical condition or your inability to follow traffic laws and rules regardless of age determines whether your license is renewed, restricted, suspended, or revoked. All customers age 70 or older must renew their driver license in person at a DMV office.

   

   

   

Below DMV.org website gives good overview by state of what the driver license renewal requirements are.  Just select your state on the map or in upper left hand corner.  50 states, 50 sets of renewal rules and they have gotten tougher over the last few years driven by federal requirements to tighten-up on ID card issuing requirements/proof....especially for state IDs such as a drivers license which is the primary form of ID in the U.S. since many, many folks do not have a passport or any other form of ID such as a military ID.

 

https://www.dmv.org/renew-license.php

[ukrules]

Like ThaiWai mentioned sending someone with a power of attorney might enable them to act on your behalf.

[miraz16]

Stinks! I dumped Chase a couple years ago myself, they’ll freeze you for anything. I stick with a smaller credit union in the US and Krungsri in Thailand. Only ever had a problem in a taxi cab in Korea with the US card. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

37 minutes ago, Pib said:

• Other states have similar requirements for renewal for older folks and/or require you to physically show up at a DMV office if of a certain age like at age 70 in California.   Up until age 70 you can also use online or my mail.   Yes, seems around 70 years or age many states get tougher on renewal requirements.

https://www.dmv.org/ca-california/Carenew-license.php

 

 

Thanks for the good info, Pib.  In my case, it means I've got a fair few renewals and years before the age 70 requirement hits -- assuming they don't change the rules between now and then.

 

Hopefully, by the time that time comes, I'll be back in some small hovel in the U.S. eating cans of cat food, relying on food stamps, and collecting second-hand clothes from my local homeless shelter handouts.

[peterb17]

Does anybody care ? 

[Jingthing]

 
Thanks for the good info, Pib.  In my case, it means I've got a fair few renewals and years before the age 70 requirement hits -- assuming they don't change the rules between now and then.
 
Hopefully, by the time that time comes, I'll be back in some small hovel in the U.S. eating cans of cat food, relying on food stamps, and collecting second-hand clothes from my local homeless shelter handouts. [emoji2]

That's if you're lucky. You'll have plenty of company too. Probably hundreds of applicants for each Walmart greeter job.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[johndudorn]

7 hours ago, dotpoom said:

This may be of no help at all, I am European and all of the banks (some more quickly than others) in my country have been asking for forms of ID from all a/c holders to continue to keep their a/c's open. ..have 30 days to comply. I will have to do something about it as I live in Thailand. ...But to the point of my post. Apart from a driving licence or a passport a major ID they might ask to see is a utility bill in one's name. Now this is usually not possible if you live abroad. However, my Ex went to the babk yesterday to explain the position ( me being abroad), while she was there she asked how people living abroad could have one in their name, she said it must be a problem for many people....."Not really" the manager said ..."for example, you can put your Ex. (me) as a joint name on your utility bill....Well well! ..I myself never knew that was possible.

  My address with the bank is her address, not a Thai address. He said,..."just tell the utility company that your Ex. is living with you and wishes to pay half the bills....simple..eh.

I did an in care of listing me in that manner. This way never responsible for the bill but shows you at that location...