So here is the dilemma, if not Thailand then where?

[Brunolem]

14 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

. I love Portugal, have spent many holidays in all the regions over 20 years. You are correct, it is now expensive compared to SE Asia. Winters are cold, apart from the Algarve coast but even there can still vary considerably.

 

When you say that Portugal is expensive compared to SE Asia, do you include everything, or just the local cost of life?

 

In other words, do you deduct the savings made while living in Portugal as a EU member, such as: no visas, no currency exchange, no taxes for retirees, no expensive air ticket to fly 10,000 km, no expensive health coverage since you can use your social security and even make a short trip back home for treatment...?

 

At the end of the day, all this adds up...

[The Fugitive]

When you say that Portugal is expensive compared to SE Asia, do you include everything, or just the local cost of life?

 

In other words, do you deduct the savings made while living in Portugal as a EU member, such as: no visas, no currency exchange, no taxes for retirees, no expensive air ticket to fly 10,000 km, no expensive health coverage since you can use your social security and even make a short trip back home for treatment...?

 

At the end of the day, all this adds up...

All very valid points and thank you for raising them. This is very interesting to ponder! Generally looking at property prices and food and drink. Public transport is also an issue. Portuguese rail travel costs have risen considerably. Currency exchange is still necessary from GBP to Euro in my case. Air fares are a considerable cost, particularly if you still have living relatives in your home country. Immigration permissions are a nuisance and added expense. Long-term hospital treatment costs could be crippling. Some UK hospitals are now insisting upon sight of ID (passport) prior to treatment. If you have not been living in the UK for the previous six months you would be refused.

 

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[altcar bob]

Just now, The Fugitive said:

All very valid points and thank you for raising them. This is very interesting to ponder! Generally looking at property prices and food and drink. Public transport is also an issue. Portuguese rail travel costs have risen considerably. Currency exchange is still necessary from GBP to Euro in my case. Air fares are indeed a considerable cost, particularly if you still have living relatives in your home country. Immigration permissions are indeed a nuisance and added expense. Long-term hospital treatment costs could be crippling. Some UK hospitals are now insisting upon sight of ID (passport) prior to treatment. If you have not been living in the UK for the previous six months you would be refused.

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Portugal,is in a worst state financially than the majority EU countries,not a country Id settle in,if I had to east of Faro airport toward Spanish border.   Spain (do not care for charts) is a lot cheaper easier access to Uk  Eurosun etc  Uk hospital will care for UK national on return  no questions

[The Fugitive]

Portugal,is in a worst state financially than the majority EU countries,not a country Id settle in,if I had to east of Faro airport toward Spanish border.   Spain (do not care for charts) is a lot cheaper easier access to Uk  Eurosun etc  Uk hospital will care for UK national on return  no questions

Thank you. Portugal is definitely 'the poor man of Western Europe'. East of Faro is pleasant. Many flights between Malaga and UK. Some low cost flights available from Portuguese airports too. I understand if you receive State Pension you would get NHS treatment without question. If not, you would have to satisfy them you were returning permanently.

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[Brunolem]

35 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

All very valid points and thank you for raising them. This is very interesting to ponder! Generally looking at property prices and food and drink. Public transport is also an issue. Portuguese rail travel costs have risen considerably. Currency exchange is still necessary from GBP to Euro in my case. Air fares are a considerable cost, particularly if you still have living relatives in your home country. Immigration permissions are a nuisance and added expense. Long-term hospital treatment costs could be crippling. Some UK hospitals are now insisting upon sight of ID (passport) prior to treatment. If you have not been living in the UK for the previous six months you would be refused.

 

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I understand it makes a big difference being British rather than a EU member.

For me, a French citizen, Portugal can be easily reached by land, even using my own car, and there is no currency exchange issue.

[Brunolem]

33 minutes ago, altcar bob said:

Portugal,is in a worst state financially than the majority EU countries

I am counting on that actually!

 

Once the Draghi experiment will end (printing euros by the truckload and buying all the European bonds), financial reality wil reassert itself and at least some countries, Portugal among them, will have to leave the doomed eurozone, or face total economic collapse.

 

That's when things will become interesting, because Portugal will almost instantly become 30 to 50% cheaper than it is now with the artificial boost of the euro.

 

Meanwhile, there is a good chance that the euro will keep on depreciating against the baht, making it ever more expensive to live in Thailand...

[The Fugitive]

I am counting on that actually!
 
Once the Draghi experiment will end (printing euros by the truckload and buying all the European bonds), financial reality wil reassert itself and at least some countries, Portugal among them, will have to leave the doomed eurozone, or face total economic collapse.
 
That's when things will become interesting, because Portugal will almost instantly become 30 to 50% cheaper than it is now with the artificial boost of the euro.
 
Meanwhile, there is a good chance that the euro will keep on depreciating against the baht, making it ever more expensive to live in Thailand...

That's what you call forward planning!

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[Jingthing]

Talk about currency meltdowns. You can now get 40 percent interest on Argentina peso accounts and that's a BAD DEAL!

[Brunolem]

1 minute ago, The Fugitive said:

That's what you call forward planning!

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Indeed, and I think that in these days of very high uncertainty, it is dangerous to live exclusively in the present under the assumption that tomorrow will be no different than today.

 

There are actually huge forces at play and sooner or later something is going to give...one can escape gravity only for so long...

 

With incomes five time lower than in Germany, Portugal (as well as Greece and Italy) was never meant to be in a monetary union such as the euro.

 

There have been other such experiences in the past...never ending well..as in the time when all Francs (French, Swiss, Belgium...) were exchanged one for one...but not for long...

[sanemax]

12 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

I am counting on that actually!

Once the Draghi experiment will end (printing euros by the truckload and buying all the European bonds), financial reality wil reassert itself and at least some countries, Portugal among them, will have to leave the doomed eurozone, or face total economic collapse.

That's when things will become interesting, because Portugal will almost instantly become 30 to 50% cheaper than it is now with the artificial boost of the euro.

Meanwhile, there is a good chance that the euro will keep on depreciating against the baht, making it ever more expensive to live in Thailand...

 

   I am just waiting for the results from NASA'a trip to Mars , if that planet is livable , all the infrastructure that needs to be build will cause a boom on Mars and their currency will strengthen against the Baht , so I m currently looking to buy martian money

[Airalee]

2 hours ago, The manic said:

They are not allowed to use the old name. They live in fear of MI. They are forced to inform on each other. They are brainwashed, tribalised and victims of their own making. The regime uses mass rape, torture, blackmail,incarceration, disappearances,  etc to control a hapless population. You will remember ASSK asked the the world,NOT to use the term Myanmar as it was imposed by the most violent thuggish regime in the world.  But whether it is now called Burma or The ridiculous Myanmar it is really  a hell for most people. Anybody,including you who thrives there has blood on their hands up to their elbows. It  is a toxic dump, no infrastructure, nasty racist, deluded, but cowed people. Yes they are victims of a hideous regime but the government are the people writ large.

I spent an afternoon in Tachileik about 4 years ago and I could really sense the fear, desperation and distrust in the locals.  It was very surreal and depressing.

[Brunolem]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

 

   I am just waiting for the results from NASA'a trip to Mars , if that planet is livable , all the infrastructure that needs to be build will cause a boom on Mars and their currency will strengthen against the Baht , so I m currently looking to buy martian money

Mars central bank doesn't carry a 5 trillion dollar (and growing fast) balance sheet on its back...does it?

[stevkob]

The Mars economy is heavily reliant on the tourist dollar but they are finding it difficult to get people to come.

The combination of lack of infrastructure, airfares and travel time is a bitch. Plus there aren't any beaches.

To top it all off they only give you a 30day visa and they won't allow you to own any land . There's a rumor circulating that they are in talks with Alibaba.

[MaeJoMTB]

2 hours ago, The Fugitive said:

Long-term hospital treatment costs could be crippling. Some UK hospitals are now insisting upon sight of ID (passport) prior to treatment.

What if you don't have a passport?

Quite a lot of folk don't travel, so don't buy them.

[The Fugitive]

What if you don't have a passport?

Quite a lot of folk don't travel, so don't buy them.

That is exactly what objectors are saying. As UK does not have ID cards, the only other photo ID is a new style driving licence. But same applies, not everyone drives. For proof of address they are also asking for utility bills etc. Last time I went for NHS treatment was to an out-patients clinic. When you checked in you had to press a key confirming you have been a UK resident for the last 6 months.

 

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[MaeJoMTB]

4 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

That is exactly what objectors are saying. As UK does not have ID cards, the only other photo ID is a new style driving licence. But same applies, not everyone drives. For proof of address they are also asking for utility bills etc.

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I have a UK driving licence, even though I haven't lived there for over 10 years.

I actually had a cousin working in a NHS hospital doing this job (identifying foreigners).

Although she wouldn't say it out loud, they were only questioning people with foreign accents and/or non-white skin. Job title 'Overseas Visitors Manager'.

Edited May 6, 2018 by MaeJoMTB

[The Fugitive]

I have a UK driving licence, even though I haven't lived there for over 10 years.
I actually had a cousin working in a NHS hospital doing this job (identifying foreigners).
Although she wouldn't say it out loud, they were only questioning people with foreign accents and/or non-white skin. Job title 'Overseas Visitors Manager'.

Just read that if you receive State Pension and have been continuously resident in the UK for 10 years or more at some point in the past you will receive NHS services.

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[JAZZDOG]

After reading all these comments and living the Asian experiment for two years I'm going back to plan B. I have already lived plan A, Latin America and it turned out much like plan C, Thailand.  By and large, but not in all instances, expats are walking wallets to be emptied ASAP. Both Governments invite expats until the money runs out or is extorted than they are ushered toward the exits. The Ushers never smile. My exit from LOS back to plan B is based on an entire new set of criteria based on the failed plans A & B. Here they are;

 

Must haves;

-Beautiful beaches, clear water

-Clear clean air

-Great food

-Gorgeous women

-Economic upside

-Entry difficult enough to make expats stay away

-Good nightlife, entertainment

-Numerous events, concerts, music

-Not so affordable as to attract a small nation of cheap charleys

-Local International airport

-Good roadways

-Professional police presents

-Sincerely warm and family orientated locals

-A large country with no inferiority complex were an expat doesn't stick out

 

Heading back to Salvador-Bahia next month. Lived there from 2007-2015. Moved to SE Asia by fate when I traded a farm in CR for a yacht in Kota Kinabalu, flew to LOS to give it a try but the negatives tilted the scale. Some were indicative of Asia, some uniquely LOS. The game killers:

-Dirty beaches, water

-Pretty much dirty everything

-Greed pretty much everywhere

-Insanity on the roads

-Caustic loud, drunken shirtless old expats bragging about how long they have been here, how they know pretty much everything on google. The wanted and unwanted.

-Severely limited education 

-Expat rights non-existent

-More expensive than Bahia

-Expats cant own/invest in property except the over saturated condo market.

 

I built my beachfront house on a pristine cove in 2012 and it has doubled in value even during a recession. Exchange rate triples my buying power and also presents good investment possibilities. There is energy here lacking in every other place I have been. Sure there is crime and murder but not for a guy 55 who's a white non-drug user living in a gated community. I feel much safer in Bahia than the insanity one is surrounded with in LOS without any rights and corrupt police. Brazil is not for everyone, not for those on a small budget which makes it appealing for me. For me the best places are the ones off the radar and a challenge to gain entry. So remember, don't come to Brazil you will be mugged, raped, shot and beheaded. All likely the first week of arrival.

****Built my house, second from left at 0;03 with pool in 2010 for US$ 200K. Today it is worth 3X that. Great diving, swimming and fishing. Constant tradewinds directly from Africa provide constant breezes and air quality second only to Greenland.

 

 

[Hummin]

4 hours ago, The Fugitive said:

Very good post, thank you for the information. I love Portugal, have spent many holidays in all the regions over 20 years. You are correct, it is now expensive compared to SE Asia. Winters are cold, apart from the Algarve coast but even there can still vary considerably. I have experience of living in Paraguay. Unfortunately, the infrastructure is diabolical. Cost of living is higher than Thailand. Thailand is wonderful by comparison.

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The sea is still cold in alrgarve, and summer short compare to Thailand. But as one other mention, there is some cost to save if you are a europeen member, and also  a "short" flight to Brazil for holiday :D

Edited May 6, 2018 by Hummin

[MaeJoMTB]

16 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

Just read that if you receive State Pension and have been continuously resident in the UK for 10 years or more at some point in the past you will receive NHS services.

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Another 4 years and I'm legit then.

[altcar bob]

43 minutes ago, Hummin said:

The sea is still cold in alrgarve, and summer short compare to Thailand. But as one other mention, there is some cost to save if you are a europeen member, and also  a "short" flight to Brazil for holiday :D

..and it pisses down every day in their winter

[Hummin]

3 minutes ago, altcar bob said:

..and it pisses down every day in their winter

Dry and nice in Fortaleza ;-)

90 days entry visa to for me. 

And we have family house there. 

Edited May 6, 2018 by Hummin

[JAZZDOG]

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Dry and nice in Fortaleza ;-)

90 days entry visa to for me. 

And we have family house there. 

I got a permanent visa based on :Stable Union" with my Brazilian GF. Not much hassle, just had to show emails, pics and history going back 5 years at the time. Had to go in front of a female judge and have an informal chat to be approved. Actually a very cool experience. Bahia is really nice in that the locals are like totally impartial to expats I guess mainly because they deal with so few. 

I have heard good things about Fortaleza. If I was to relocate it would be to Florianopolis down south.

[grollies]

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Yeah, I am realizing that. Especially the Punta del Este coastal area. The main city Montevideo seems pleasant but that's of course not cheap either. I think the only more lower cost places are more inland like Minas. 

If you're into South America have you considered Peru? I spent a couple of weeks in Callao, a great run ashore, nice city, modern. I nearly jumped ship there for a lovely woman.

[Hummin]

55 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

I got a permanent visa based on :Stable Union" with my Brazilian GF. Not much hassle, just had to show emails, pics and history going back 5 years at the time. Had to go in front of a female judge and have an informal chat to be approved. Actually a very cool experience. Bahia is really nice in that the locals are like totally impartial to expats I guess mainly because they deal with so few. 

I have heard good things about Fortaleza. If I was to relocate it would be to Florianopolis down south.

It was additional information if I move to Portugal with the benefits of being europeen member, and have a winter house in Fortaleza. I have not checked visa requirments on permament basis, but my gf get aoutomatic Eu visa if she marries me, and I move to Portugal, and she have also 90 days entry visa in Brazil. So for me, Portugal is an good option if Im going to change location. 

[Jingthing]

If you're into South America have you considered Peru? I spent a couple of weeks in Callao, a great run ashore, nice city, modern. I nearly jumped ship there for a lovely woman.

I have been there and considered it. Not Callao but Peru. My Achilles heel is languages. I don't think an expat can really make it in SA without the local language. I'm terrible in that department and can't see that realistically getting better with age.

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[JAZZDOG]

1 minute ago, Hummin said:

It was additional information if I move to Portugal with the benefits of being europeen member, and have a winter house in Fortaleza. I have not checked visa requirments on permament basis, but my gf get aoutomatic Eu visa if she marries me, and I move to Portugal, and she have also 90 days entry visa in Brazil. So for me, Portugal is an good option if Im going to change location. 

Actually I believe you have 180 days in / 180 days out. May have to visit Fed police, cant remember. You would be all set maybe even with the visa I got.

[JAZZDOG]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I have been there and considered it. Not Callao but Peru. My Achilles heel is languages. I don't think an expat can really make it in SA without the local language. I'm terrible in that department and can't see that realistically getting better with age.

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Actually that is a big problem in Brazil. Having said that the best of times with my GF were those spent not understanding what each other was saying, Lol. Likewise here in Pattaya there is far to much English I'm exposed to. Don't know which is worse.

[JLCrab]

I started learning Chinese 40+ years ago. I started working in PRChina 30 years ago. I have no intention if I relocate to anywhere other than back to USA that I would still stay somewhere in SE Asia or maybe Korea.

Edited May 6, 2018 by JLCrab

[simon43]

They are not allowed to use the old name. They live in fear of MI. They are forced to inform on each other. They are brainwashed, tribalised and victims of their own making. The regime uses mass rape, torture, blackmail,incarceration, disappearances,  etc to control a hapless population. You will remember ASSK asked the the world,NOT to use the term Myanmar as it was imposed by the most violent thuggish regime in the world.  But whether it is now called Burma or The ridiculous Myanmar it is really  a hell for most people. Anybody,including you who thrives there has blood on their hands up to their elbows. It  is a toxic dump, no infrastructure, nasty racist, deluded, but cowed people. Yes they are victims of a hideous regime but the government are the people writ large.

 

Well. clearly some Burmese lady has taken you to the cleaners, such pent-up hatred of the country and people...

 

I have lived and worked in Myanmar for 6 years, and prior to that, I visited south Myanmar over 20 times.

 

I remember about 12-15 years ago that indeed the local population were in fear of the authorities, and there were many informers.  I used to be followed in Kawtaung and questioned in a friendly manner), as to which locals I had spoken to and what about.  Those locals had to report their conversations with me to the authorities.

 

But I generally don't see that fear anymore.  The Myanmar people (I include all ethnic groups) are much more confident and open, albeit that the current regime is far from perfect.

 

The term 'Myanmar' is accepted by all ethnic groups, because unless they are Burmese, they didn't like to use the word 'Burma'.

 

Sorry, but I don't see this 'hell' that you speak of.  I have lived in the slums of Yangon, in Mandalay and now in Naypyitaw - certainly no 'hell' there.

 

There certainly are regions where the ethnic fighting continues (Kachin, north Shan etc), which are no fun at all for the local civilians, who are caught between fighting between the ethnic fighters and the Burmese army.

 

Can I ask if you have any good word to say about the country, the people, perhaps the food or the traditions??