Court decides: AirBnB illegal in Thailand for daily and weekly rental

[newnative]

1 hour ago, brucec64 said:

It's actually up to the co-owners to decide, and the condo management to enforce. If management is not doing their job, it's up the committee to take action.

 

I think it's reasonable to put a non-airbnb clause on the condo. A well run condo can easily stop short term rentals.

 

The co-owners should be requiring condo management to enforce the prohibition against short-term rentals.  Conversely, they do not have the power to require condo management to allow short-term rentals as that would be in violation of Thai law.

[Destiny1990]

3 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

I imagine its all the same problems, a lot of pissed off people in residential buildings, landlords avoiding tax and being unaccountable, dedicated purpose built hotels with less customers. People staying in substandard buildings that were never intended to be hotels, lack of insurance, security, safety and no one to be held accountable.

I can put up tents down on the beach and give people "more options".

 

Most condominiums here are unoccupied for about 75% in average ... have some rooms booked by airbnb no big deal.. so there be 15 people at the pool instead of 9...

loosen up

[JAZZDOG]

26 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

Most condominiums here are unoccupied for about 75% in average ... have some rooms booked by airbnb no big deal.. so there be 15 people at the pool instead of 9...

loosen up

Condo dwellers are like "White Man" in the 70s Zap comics " They must maintain that rigid position or all is lost". They actually have gestapo dudes who go around asking people at the pool if they are there short term. They really despise everyone that is not like them, think like them, look like them, talk like them etc. Condos are great places if you are like them, otherwise not so much.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by JAZZDOG
typo

[Destiny1990]

1 hour ago, JAZZDOG said:

Condo dwellers are like "White Man" in the 70s Zap comics " They must maintain that rigid position or all is lost". They actually have gestapo dudes who go around asking people at the pool if they are there short term. They really despise everyone that is not like them, think like them, look like them, talk like them etc. Condos are great places if you are like them, otherwise not so much.

 

 

How dear Airbnb guests  riff raff folks use their pool because they do not hold a year rental lease in pocket like they signed.

i think all the same soon as condo owners make good income with airbnb they will shut up immediately..

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Destiny1990

[JAZZDOG]

4 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

How dear Airbnb guests  riff raff folks use their pool because they do not hold a year rental lease in pocket like they signed.

i think all the same soon as condo owners make good income with airbnb they will shut up immediately..

 

Whats funny is the condo dwellers who got baited into buying based on guaranteed returns of 7% only to find out later that was only on Airbnb short term rentals. I wonder how many would have purchased if they knew they would only make a paltry 3% renting yearly and when they finally sold it would mean taking a 10% bath.

[Destiny1990]

10 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

Whats funny is the condo dwellers who got baited into buying based on guaranteed returns of 7% only to find out later that was only on Airbnb short term rentals. I wonder how many would have purchased if they knew they would only make a paltry 3% renting yearly and when they finally sold it would mean taking a 10% bath.

Yeah exactly Its an open market nowadays  airbnb grap uber dont begin whining about it because Internet is not going to stop..

[newnative]

6 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

How dear Airbnb guests  riff raff folks use their pool because they do not hold a year rental lease in pocket like they signed.

i think all the same soon as condo owners make good income with airbnb they will shut up immediately..

 

     Except, where's the 'good income' if you just have one condo you are renting out illegally on a daily basis?  I just checked Airbnb for a popular condo, Centric Sea.  Rentals for a 1 bedroom  ranged from around 691 baht a day to around 1500 baht a day.  Most seemed to be in the 1000 baht range.  

    If you take 1000 baht as an average, even if it is rented every single day--doubtful--you would just be bringing in 30,000 baht gross.  Subtract from that the monthly condo maintenance fee, monthly electric and water charges, damages and theft, condo cleaning and laundry charges, and staff salary if you have someone check in and out the illegal renters.  What does that leave you?  Not much--especially if you're the guy only charging 691 baht.  

     

[Destiny1990]

11 minutes ago, newnative said:

     Except, where's the 'good income' if you just have one condo you are renting out illegally on a daily basis?  I just checked Airbnb for a popular condo, Centric Sea.  Rentals for a 1 bedroom  ranged from around 691 baht a day to around 1500 baht a day.  Most seemed to be in the 1000 baht range.  

    If you take 1000 baht as an average, even if it is rented every single day--doubtful--you would just be bringing in 30,000 baht gross.  Subtract from that the monthly condo maintenance fee, monthly electric and water charges, damages and theft, condo cleaning and laundry charges, and staff salary if you have someone check in and out the illegal renters.  What does that leave you?  Not much--especially if you're the guy only charging 691 baht.  

     

True indeed not big money and i don’t  advice people to do it but i dont mind or care if they do..i guess these owners already experienced that they got no chance for long term tenants that market close to dead now so airbnb atleast makes something.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Destiny1990

[VocalNeal]

3 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

Yeah exactly Its an open market nowadays  airbnb grap uber dont begin whining about it because Internet is not going to stop..

Sure is providing everyone pays their fair share of the taxes and abides by the rules.

 

Uber/Grab for example. All taxis in Thailand must be 1600cc or over.  Someone who uses either service can tell me if their vehicles were? All Taxis/limousines are licensed  as such etc, etc. Even have different coloured licence plates. So yes it is a free market but one cannot conveniently flout the existing rules and hope to get away with it.

As long as Private hire drivers are licensed etc should be OK and declare their income etc.   

 

AirBnB. Sure register the guests according to the rules, pay some taxes like guest houses then everything is OK. Individual condo management committees can determine if they want short term residents. 

 

Et, etc. Internet is great but it is not a licence to flout the rules. Having a smart phone does not mean one can do as one pleases.

[Peterw42]

42 minutes ago, newnative said:

     Except, where's the 'good income' if you just have one condo you are renting out illegally on a daily basis?  I just checked Airbnb for a popular condo, Centric Sea.  Rentals for a 1 bedroom  ranged from around 691 baht a day to around 1500 baht a day.  Most seemed to be in the 1000 baht range.  

    If you take 1000 baht as an average, even if it is rented every single day--doubtful--you would just be bringing in 30,000 baht gross.  Subtract from that the monthly condo maintenance fee, monthly electric and water charges, damages and theft, condo cleaning and laundry charges, and staff salary if you have someone check in and out the illegal renters.  What does that leave you?  Not much--especially if you're the guy only charging 691 baht.  

     

Yes thats the reality of it,  I had a friend doing airbnb in phuket and gave it away as he worked out he made more money just doing normal long term rental. In the case of the condo you mentioned, it would probably rent for 20,000 a month LT with no expenses other than condo fees.

 

Friend in Phuket was doing airbnb for 1,000 a night and had bare minimum costs of 600 a night, Then massive electricity bills (8,000 a month) because the guests would run the airconn/lights 24 hours a day, doors open etc. A broken toilet seat or a lost TV remote and any profit was gone.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Peterw42

[Destiny1990]

7 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Yes thats the reality of it,  I had a friend doing airbnb in phuket and gave it away as he worked out he made more money just doing normal long term rental. In the case of the condo you mentioned, it would probably rent for 20,000 a month with no expenses other than condo fees.

How about those condo owners who cant find long term tenants?

[Peterw42]

7 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

How about those condo owners who cant find long term tenants?

Yes, there is no guarantee of finding a long term tenant, but no guarantee of high occupancy doing airbnb. You only need to find a long-term tenant once every couple of years, and they pay there own electricity, internet, cable tv and do their own cleaning.

[JAZZDOG]

7 minutes ago, newnative said:

     Except, where's the 'good income' if you just have one condo you are renting out illegally on a daily basis?  I just checked Airbnb for a popular condo, Centric Sea.  Rentals for a 1 bedroom  ranged from around 691 baht a day to around 1500 baht a day.  Most seemed to be in the 1000 baht range.  

    If you take 1000 baht as an average, even if it is rented every single day--doubtful--you would just be bringing in 30,000 baht gross.  Subtract from that the monthly condo maintenance fee, monthly electric and water charges, damages and theft, condo cleaning and laundry charges, and staff salary if you have someone check in and out the illegal renters.  What does that leave you?  Not much--especially if you're the guy only charging 691 baht.  

     

rent @1000/day/75%OCC                                                        22500

condo fee                                                                                      1500

elec/water/cable                                                                         9000

clean/laundry                                                                               5000

Airbnb com                                                                                   4000

                                                                                                      _______

net before taxes/bail bond/fines                                            3000/month

 

Never actually did the numbers, that's insane. No wonder dwellers are so bitter! Busting ass for a 1% return. even at 1500/day you make 9% but what a pain in the ass.                                                                                                

 

[sam neuts]

     Except, where's the 'good income' if you just have one condo you are renting out illegally on a daily basis?  I just checked Airbnb for a popular condo, Centric Sea.  Rentals for a 1 bedroom  ranged from around 691 baht a day to around 1500 baht a day.  Most seemed to be in the 1000 baht range.  
    If you take 1000 baht as an average, even if it is rented every single day--doubtful--you would just be bringing in 30,000 baht gross.  Subtract from that the monthly condo maintenance fee, monthly electric and water charges, damages and theft, condo cleaning and laundry charges, and staff salary if you have someone check in and out the illegal renters.  What does that leave you?  Not much--especially if you're the guy only charging 691 baht.  
     

Exactly right.

For many it is really not worth it.

Rent it for 30 day minimum at a good price and you have no problems.

Very possible to earn a good annual income if you market it correctly.


Sent from my SM-G925F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[sam neuts]

Exactly right.

For many it is really not worth it.

Rent it for 30 day minimum at a good price and you have no problems.

Very possible to earn a good annual income if you market it correctly.


Sent from my SM-G925F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

And remember. Your guests do not have to stay 30 days. You are just allowed to lease for 30 days. If they stay 2 weeks it doesnt matter.
12 good priced bookings a year and you are fully occupied and making money legally.

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[ThaiBob]

36 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

How about those condo owners who cant find long term tenants?

Lower rents, advertise, compete. Competition, seems like a concept some have forgotten. Long-term rentals would be more competitive not artificially supported by airbnb short-term rentals. Get these short-term renters in guesthouses where they belong and where TM30s are submitted and taxes paid. 

[JAZZDOG]

2 minutes ago, sam neuts said:

Exactly right.

For many it is really not worth it.

Rent it for 30 day minimum at a good price and you have no problems.

Very possible to earn a good annual income if you market it correctly.


Sent from my SM-G925F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Really, show me some numbers. I contend with rents so cheap here due to over supply and high vacancy that you can easily make twice the return elsewhere that has less risk and far greater liquidity. Many people claim "Good Income" here on rentals but never come off the numbers. Show data or BS.

[JAZZDOG]

4 minutes ago, sam neuts said:

And remember. Your guests do not have to stay 30 days. You are just allowed to lease for 30 days. If they stay 2 weeks it doesnt matter.
12 good priced bookings a year and you are fully occupied and making money legally.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Show me an example. First your working and getting paid nothing for it. Second the return on the money you invested is paltry at best even at 100% occupancy. Don't tell people that unless you can present REAL TIME data to support it. You sound like a condo hawker guaranteeing ridiculous returns. You are saying 12 "Good priced"  bookings per year will provide a good income, BS

[sam neuts]

Really, show me some numbers. I contend with rents so cheap here due to over supply and high vacancy that you can easily make twice the return elsewhere that has less risk and far greater liquidity. Many people claim "Good Income" here on rentals but never come off the numbers. Show data or BS.

I would be happy to explain the reasoning behind my comment, and what i see as a possible solution.
Please note* I am talking about existing owners in the position of already owning a condominium, and previously offering daily rentals.
Now in a position where they want to be legal by offering 30 day rentals, and still make money.
You will have to PM me for details which may take me a couple of days to present to you.
I would be interested in your comments.

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[JAZZDOG]

12 minutes ago, sam neuts said:

I would be happy to explain the reasoning behind my comment, and what i see as a possible solution.
Please note* I am talking about existing owners in the position of already owning a condominium, and previously offering daily rentals.
Now in a position where they want to be legal by offering 30 day rentals, and still make money.
You will have to PM me for details which may take me a couple of days to present to you.
I would be interested in your comments.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Don't need to go to PM. Sounds to me like your selling something in which case you need to click on advertising above. Doesn't matter if they own or thinking about buying. The Pattaya rental market sucks for investors but it's a gold mine for renters. Take any great rental market NYC, San Francisco, Rio, Hong Kong, Singapore, What do they have in common? The exact opposite of here, strong demand and short supply. Here there is relatively weak demand based on the acute over supply. Prices running 30 plus times annual rent when a property needs to be 16 or less to make sense as a rental. If you want to live out your years here and don't care about appreciation or rental income, owning your own place then so be it. But if you are going to preach that this is a place that produces a good income return on residential property show me the numbers, otherwise its BS. No PM, I am sure allot of people would like to here about such an investment. Waiting for your post because nobody else has posted up to my challenge, just vague references to making money?

[bkk6060]

46 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

Don't need to go to PM. Sounds to me like your selling something in which case you need to click on advertising above. Doesn't matter if they own or thinking about buying. The Pattaya rental market sucks for investors but it's a gold mine for renters. Take any great rental market NYC, San Francisco, Rio, Hong Kong, Singapore, What do they have in common? The exact opposite of here, strong demand and short supply. Here there is relatively weak demand based on the acute over supply. Prices running 30 plus times annual rent when a property needs to be 16 or less to make sense as a rental. If you want to live out your years here and don't care about appreciation or rental income, owning your own place then so be it. But if you are going to preach that this is a place that produces a good income return on residential property show me the numbers, otherwise its BS. No PM, I am sure allot of people would like to here about such an investment. Waiting for your post because nobody else has posted up to my challenge, just vague references to making money?

That is why I rent here.

I was paying 4 times what I am paying here in another large city with no ocean, minimal bars/ restaurants to walk to, and boom boom purgatory. Everything is much less including internet, electric, phone, etc.

I think it is a bargain here, but I obviously came from a very expensive place.

Edited June 26, 2018 by bkk6060

[JAZZDOG]

24 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

That is why I rent here.

I was paying 4 times what I am paying here in another large city with no ocean, minimal bars/ restaurants to walk to, and boom boom purgatory. Everything is much less including internet, electric, phone, etc.

I think it is a bargain here, but I obviously came from a very expensive place.

Exactly, places you want to live and places you need to invest to maximize gain likely will not be the same place if you want to live life to it's fullest, travel, ect. That's why it's called a global market and you are only seconds away from controlling your assets from a smart phone. Dealing with residential rental investment property and enjoying retirement is an oxymoron.

[JAZZDOG]

2 hours ago, sam neuts said:

And remember. Your guests do not have to stay 30 days. You are just allowed to lease for 30 days. If they stay 2 weeks it doesnt matter.
12 good priced bookings a year and you are fully occupied and making money legally.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Doesn't matter, you cant build a good business model around a poor investment in a bad economic environment. You can out lipstick on a hog but at the end of the day it is still a hog with red lips.

[newnative]

8 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

Most condominiums here are unoccupied for about 75% in average ... have some rooms booked by airbnb no big deal.. so there be 15 people at the pool instead of 9...

loosen up

There's a lot more involved with this issue than the number of people at the pool.

[newnative]

6 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Yes thats the reality of it,  I had a friend doing airbnb in phuket and gave it away as he worked out he made more money just doing normal long term rental. In the case of the condo you mentioned, it would probably rent for 20,000 a month LT with no expenses other than condo fees.

 

Friend in Phuket was doing airbnb for 1,000 a night and had bare minimum costs of 600 a night, Then massive electricity bills (8,000 a month) because the guests would run the airconn/lights 24 hours a day, doors open etc. A broken toilet seat or a lost TV remote and any profit was gone.

     Yes, I owned a Centric Sea 1 bedroom condo rental and it did rent for 20,000 baht a month.  My only expense was the monthly condo maintenance fee--tenant paid electric, water, internet, cleaning, etc.  I think long-term tenants can be found with a little effort and the return is likely as good or better than renting short-term, with a lot less hassle.

[JAZZDOG]

2 minutes ago, newnative said:

There's a lot more involved with this issue than the number of people at the pool.

I think you are correct. I rented a brand new 2 bedroom condo a year and a half ago at Amari on the hill. Very nice upper floor corner unit. Guy paid 7M off-construction and I paid 25K rent. Amari is set up first 12 floors hotel, the upper 30 or so floors condos. Entire separate lobby, elevator and gym for hotel and condos. Hotel was always busy and cheap, the condo side was a ghost house. Six months never saw another person on my floor of six units. It felt like living at a hotel coming and going but not when I was inside my unit. I moved out and the guy raised the rent to 35K. I followed it and it hasn't rented in a year and 4 months. I think this is typical in this building. The hotel portion, even set up as well as you could imagine, drags the condos Nobody wants to live in a hotel filled with varied demographics. 

 

[The manic]

On 5/16/2018 at 7:07 PM, Father Fintan Stack said:

Heinous crimes which Thais commit daily, thousands upon thousands of times. Come to think of it, what is the percentage of Thais without a driving license again?

 

Let me tell the Thais and the bitters one thing. You can't stop the tide.

 

The reason people use AirBNB and similar platforms is because they are cheaper. They have less fees, so both the renter and leaser benefit. 

 

Just wait until the decentralised booking platforms on the blockchain gain traction, they will be even cheaper as they cut out the middlemen completely, and some actually reward for booking, meaning they will be impossible to compete with and render AirBNB and the likes obsolete. They are not far away.

 

You can swim against the tide, but you will drown eventually. How many businesses you take down with you remains to be seen. 

Settled neighbours don't like AnB. 

[Destiny1990]

7 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

I think you are correct. I rented a brand new 2 bedroom condo a year and a half ago at Amari on the hill. Very nice upper floor corner unit. Guy paid 7M off-construction and I paid 25K rent. Amari is set up first 12 floors hotel, the upper 30 or so floors condos. Entire separate lobby, elevator and gym for hotel and condos. Hotel was always busy and cheap, the condo side was a ghost house. Six months never saw another person on my floor of six units. It felt like living at a hotel coming and going but not when I was inside my unit. I moved out and the guy raised the rent to 35K. I followed it and it hasn't rented in a year and 4 months. I think this is typical in this building. The hotel portion, even set up as well as you could imagine, drags the condos Nobody wants to live in a hotel filled with varied demographics. 

 

He made barely 4%  rental returns by renting it out to u for long term 

Honestly that seems like a unit that would make  much better returns  by airbnb.. And since as u said most units are empty then whats the problem..Hey people who rent out their units by airbnb are not some kind of criminals.

[JAZZDOG]

20 minutes ago, newnative said:

     Yes, I owned a Centric Sea 1 bedroom condo rental and it did rent for 20,000 baht a month.  My only expense was the monthly condo maintenance fee--tenant paid electric, water, internet, cleaning, etc.  I think long-term tenants can be found with a little effort and the return is likely as good or better than renting short-term, with a lot less hassle.

Must have been a very nice unit because there are 110 units for rent currently with 1 bedrooms offered much lower 13-15K/month and listed for sale averaging 3.8M.

The cheapest 2.6M to the highest 5M. Hard to understand what would warrant the difference, both decent views, same cheap spec furnishings. If you got in early and keep it rented paying 3M or less and full time at 20K/month that's one of the more impressive deals I've seen. Dog don't hunting paying 3.7M and renting for 13M.

[JAZZDOG]

32 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

He made barely 4%  rental returns by renting it out to u for long term 

Honestly that seems like a unit that would make  much better returns  by airbnb.. And since as u said most units are empty then whats the problem..Hey people who rent out their units by airbnb are not some kind of criminals.

Likewise, folks running a guesthouse for decades paying taxes and employing locals and working their asses off aren't criminals but they are being treated as such. Join the club.

 

Hey, I am all for it. People who buy into condos knew the game, hell many were quoted guaranteed returns 6-7%. That's based on daily rentals not monthly. Now they are complaining? Actually the guy made a 9/10 of one percent return because I rented 6 months and found a much better deal (come to find out Amari was charging 8.5/unit for electric) and he raised the rent and it has sat vacant. IMHO a much nicer unit than Base, Centric or Unixx. I cant answer why not, those units are offered for 2K / night and this was 2 bedroom corner 64m/2. Might be the location is a good walk and no baht buses.

Another issue is possibly there are restrictions on renting the condo units ST to protect the hotel portion run by the developer

Edited June 26, 2018 by JAZZDOG
typo