Court decides: AirBnB illegal in Thailand for daily and weekly rental

[4MyEgo]

I believe a way around this is for the owner to have a friend set up a company, then rent his/her condominium to the company for say 12 months, i.e. as its over the 30 days, the law cannot touch him as the company has a lease and is entitled to allow anyone to stay in the premises as it feels fit.

 

As long as the company of the condominium doesn't advertise through Air B&B they can't touch him, now the friend who has the company advertises through Air B&B and rents out rooms or the condominium as a whole under 30 days, should be technically legal as there are provisions in the lease for the tenant to sub-lease, and the owner has no say in the matter.

 

Correct me if I am wrong as this would have to go to a tribunal and outsiders cannot take a tenant to a tribunal, only the owner and courts cannot hear matters are for tenancy tribunal matters ?

 

https://juslaws.com/news-legal-articles-thailand/legal-aspects-on-renting-out-a-condominium-unit-on-airbnb-in-thailand.php 

[zaphod reborn]

My condo building has a notice and photos of the arrests at Insaf on Soi 13 to demonstrate to the owners that Air BnB short-term rentals are illegal.

[zaphod reborn]

13 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I believe a way around this is for the owner to have a friend set up a company, then rent his/her condominium to the company for say 12 months, i.e. as its over the 30 days, the law cannot touch him as the company has a lease and is entitled to allow anyone to stay in the premises as it feels fit.

 

As long as the company of the condominium doesn't advertise through Air B&B they can't touch him, now the friend who has the company advertises through Air B&B and rents out rooms or the condominium as a whole under 30 days, should be technically legal as there are provisions in the lease for the tenant to sub-lease, and the owner has no say in the matter.

 

Correct me if I am wrong as this would have to go to a tribunal and outsiders cannot take a tenant to a tribunal, only the owner and courts cannot hear matters are for tenancy tribunal matters ?

 

https://juslaws.com/news-legal-articles-thailand/legal-aspects-on-renting-out-a-condominium-unit-on-airbnb-in-thailand.php 

This is to correct you.  That wouldn't work as the courts would find that the sub-tenancies are shorter than a month and require a hotel license.

[4MyEgo]

7 minutes ago, zaphod reborn said:

This is to correct you.  That wouldn't work as the courts would find that the sub-tenancies are shorter than a month and require a hotel license.

Do they not have Tenancy Tribunals here ?

 

I recall back in Sydney, courts could not intervene, as matters had to go to tribunals, and tribunals would have no jurisdiction over this IMO

[Peterw42]

49 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I believe a way around this is for the owner to have a friend set up a company, then rent his/her condominium to the company for say 12 months, i.e. as its over the 30 days, the law cannot touch him as the company has a lease and is entitled to allow anyone to stay in the premises as it feels fit.

 

As long as the company of the condominium doesn't advertise through Air B&B they can't touch him, now the friend who has the company advertises through Air B&B and rents out rooms or the condominium as a whole under 30 days, should be technically legal as there are provisions in the lease for the tenant to sub-lease, and the owner has no say in the matter.

 

Correct me if I am wrong as this would have to go to a tribunal and outsiders cannot take a tenant to a tribunal, only the owner and courts cannot hear matters are for tenancy tribunal matters ?

 

https://juslaws.com/news-legal-articles-thailand/legal-aspects-on-renting-out-a-condominium-unit-on-airbnb-in-thailand.php 

It could be a money laundering shelf company in the cayman islands doing the rentals, they still dont have hotel license. Not sure what a owner/tenant tribunal would have to do with it, a tribunal is to settle disputes between owner and tenant,  its the owner breaking the law, the tenant is an innocent party, there have been no mention of tenant/guests being guilty or charged.

 

Yes, a leasehold tenant could do an illegal sublet etc but that just means they would cop the illegal hotel fine, and be in breech of their original lease conditions.

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Peterw42

[JAZZDOG]

Just one more reason to rent, not buy a condo. Buying a condo one accepts the fact he will be living just inches from  strangers he doesn't know, sometimes 1200 units on one acre. One is also dependent on an association to enforce the bylaws  When you pluck the money down your eyes are wide open to the fact you may have problems with both so when it comes to pass deal with it. You OWN all the problems. Add the perceived problem an Airbnb business model presents along with the above coupled with being saddled with a flawed investment likely to lose money over alternative investments, one should have rented, All this moaning and bickering is going to accomplish is make a bad situation worse pitting owner against owner making life more stressful while at the same time depressing values further due to negative PR.

Rent, enjoy for less, leave funds where they can actually make money. If life with condo dwellers and/or evil renters gets on your nerves just move on to a brand new condo with better views, amenities and neighbors. After all condos are really the "Taxis" of housing, like many things are better rented than owned.

[smx1313]

On 5/16/2018 at 3:49 AM, shady86 said:

How can they regulate this? Airbnb is not located in Thailand and acting as a middle man. There is no money transaction done between owner and tenant too.

To answer "How?" here's what happened to a bohemian artist type friend in New York City.

 

She hit the lottery twice.

The 1st time was living in a true rent stabilized 2 bedroom apt in the West Village. Paying $300 a month in a building where similar apartments were north of $4000 a month.

The 2nd time was when AirBnB came along. She found that she could rent the extra room at market rates. Her neighborhood is the epicenter trendy downtown cool. AirBnB was a goddamn money printing machine.

 

It was great until the day lawyers with papers accompanied by people with guns and badges came knocking on the poor bohemian artist's door. 

It turned out that a nice couple who recently booked the room thru AirBnB where undercover officers wearing hidden carefully disguised audio and video recording devices.

 

You see, the owner of the building had a special kind of anger for people who rented at 1980 rates and then made huge profits off his property. He too had learned that AirBnB was a money printing machine. However, those reaping the profits didn't pay property tax, insurance, heat, water, or the million other ways NYC had of making landlords pay.

When he found his apartments on AirBnB he took action.

 

NYC has very specific rental laws and even more specific penalties for people found breaking those laws.

When the case was presented in court the badges and lawyers came with screen grabs, audio, video, leases and laws. 

She was found guilty.

Not only was she evicted from a dream apt that had been her home for nearly 30 years, she was fined for each violation. Because she had been AirBnBing since it began, there were stacks of violations. The fines easily hit $50,000.00.

Payable to the landlord!

Edited May 18, 2018 by smx1313

[bkk6060]

This has come up before.

I rent LT in Pattaya at possibly the biggest abuse place of this law: The Base condo.

100's of ST renters eveyday, 90% Chinese.

I do not see this law stopping any of it as the builder Sansiri and security seem to help facilitate all of it.

People walk up to the gate with their reservation and security helps them with contacting the agent/owner for check in.

A Sansiri rep. told me they have sold many properties to people who originally came as ST renters.

Anyway, it is wide spread throughout Pattaya. But like I mentioned earlier, Airbnb is a fragment of this.  All the major hotel websites have many ST condo rentals advertised.

I guess you would need a cop assigned there for a few weeks enforcing it. 

It is big big money so I do not see this changing anything. 

[ChidlomDweller]

Some really ignorant posts here.  Restrictions being placed on AirBNB is a global phenomenon.  Placing this just on the shoulders of greedy rich Thais and the inept junta is hitting the ball just way wrong.

 

Also, I'm always more than suspicious of those posters who fight like a devil in a baptism font in favor of AirBnB.  I've used it myself, and as a tourist enjoy greater options and price pressure on hotels, but cut the crap and admit that AirBnB has downsides for society too.  Also cut the crap and admit they and the increasing number of owner-investors on the platform are in the hotel business in each country, and not just a internet company.  Same as there has been rulings against Uber.  About time people wake up and realize this power shift to a handful of amoral internet monopolies is one of the biggest threats of our time.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/uber-ecj-ruling/

Edited May 18, 2018 by ChidlomDweller

[JAZZDOG]

3 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

This has come up before.

I rent LT in Pattaya at possibly the biggest abuse place of this law: The Base condo.

100's of ST renters eveyday, 90% Chinese.

I do not see this law stopping any of it as the builder Sansiri and security seem to help facilitate all of it.

People walk up to the gate with their reservation and security helps them with contacting the agent/owner for check in.

A Sansiri rep. told me they have sold many properties to people who originally came as ST renters.

Anyway, it is wide spread throughout Pattaya. But like I mentioned earlier, Airbnb is a fragment of this.  All the major hotel websites have many ST condo rentals advertised.

I guess you would need a cop assigned there for a few weeks enforcing it. 

It is big big money so I do not see this changing anything. 

Is it spelled out as illegal in the bylaws at The Base? Unixx is effectively a hotel. Amari on the hill is actually set up as a condo/hotel with different lifts for each with FT on the upper floors. Why do some appear legal while others don't?

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, Dukeleto said:

They would be killing a massive sector of the tourist industry

Frankly, that would be an excellent outcome. Thailand just isn't equipped to handle the numbers of people visiting, and anything that reduces the number is welcome.

Till LOS sorts it act out and builds the infrastructure to handle the hordes ( and I'm sure you understand which demographic I'm referring to ), numbers should be restricted to that which can be handled and accommodated legally.

Maya Bay was closed recently because of too many people, and Koh Larn is a disaster zone. Anything that reduces the pressure is a good thing.

BTW a popular beach in the Phillipines was closed recently because the same people that are destroying beaches in LOS were destroying it.

Allowing the hordes to circumvent the law just to make some money is selling Thailand's heritage for a bowl of pottage.

[Peterw42]

2 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

Is it spelled out as illegal in the bylaws at The Base? Unixx is effectively a hotel. Amari on the hill is actually set up as a condo/hotel with different lifts for each with FT on the upper floors. Why do some appear legal while others don't?

It is basically spelled out in all condo by-laws, they all have standard "no businesses" and "no illegal activity" laws.

There are lots of blocks that are split into the residential and the hotel, often separate towers or separate floors etc. Usually named accordingly, Acme residence, Acme hotel. You cant usually but a condo in Acme hotel.

[thaibeachlovers]

24 minutes ago, smx1313 said:

Not only was she evicted from a dream apt that had been her home for nearly 30 years, she was fined for each violation. Because she had been AirBnBing since it began, there were stacks of violations. The fines easily hit $50,000.00.

Payable to the landlord!

Revenge is sweet!

[ChidlomDweller]

27 minutes ago, smx1313 said:

To answer "How?" here's what happened to a bohemian artist type friend in New York City.

 

She hit the lottery twice.

The 1st time was living in a true rent stabilized 2 bedroom apt in the West Village. Paying $300 a month in a building where similar apartments were north of $4000 a month.

The 2nd time was when AirBnB came along. She found that she could rent the extra room at market rates. Her neighborhood is the epicenter trendy downtown cool. AirBnB was a goddamn money printing machine.

 

It was great until the day lawyers with papers accompanied by people with guns and badges came knocking on the poor bohemian artist's door. 

It turned out that a nice couple who recently booked the room thru AirBnB where undercover officers wearing hidden carefully disguised audio and video recording devices.

 

You see, the owner of the building had a special kind of anger for people who rented at 1980 rates and then made huge profits off his property. He too had learned that AirBnB was a money printing machine. However, those reaping the profits didn't pay property tax, insurance, heat, water, or the million other ways NYC had of making landlords pay.

When he found his apartments on AirBnB he took action.

 

NYC has very specific rental laws and even more specific penalties for people found breaking those laws.

When the case was presented in court the badges and lawyers came with screen grabs, audio, video, leases and laws. 

She was found guilty.

Not only was she evicted from a dream apt that had been her home for nearly 30 years, she was fined for each violation. Because she had been AirBnBing since it began, there were stacks of violations. The fines easily hit $50,000.00.

Payable to the landlord!

 

Here's another example.  

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-03/singapore-court-imposes-hefty-fines-for-airbnb-rentals

 

Scores of examples around the world.  People thinking they'll get away long-term with loopholes are deluding themselves.  

Edited May 18, 2018 by ChidlomDweller

[mokwit]

There is the security issue. A hotel with as many rooms as a large condo almost certainly has in house security with knowledge of the type and MoU of criminals who check in to steal from other guests. All most condos have is a uniformed security guard who invariably sleeps on duty.

[zaphod reborn]

2 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

Do they not have Tenancy Tribunals here ?

 

  There are specialty courts in Thailand, such as the labor courts, IP and Trademark courts, criminal courts, Constitutional court, but Tenancy?  You must be kidding.  It's amazing that Thailand finally enacted its first law relating to landlord-tenant relationships (part of the Consumer Protection Act).

[JAZZDOG]

Tenants have ALL the rights. The right to pack up and haul ass.

[bkk6060]

1 hour ago, JAZZDOG said:

Is it spelled out as illegal in the bylaws at The Base? Unixx is effectively a hotel. Amari on the hill is actually set up as a condo/hotel with different lifts for each with FT on the upper floors. Why do some appear legal while others don't?

It is a true joke.

Yes, there are signs all around The Base but just ignored.

I am not sure why the Thai owners don't complain more.  Or go to the cops or file a lawsuit.  Not sure of the right avenue.

[JAZZDOG]

21 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

It is a true joke.

Yes, there are signs all around The Base but just ignored.

I am not sure why the Thai owners don't complain more.  Or go to the cops or file a lawsuit.  Not sure of the right avenue.

Actually the right to rent daily/weekly would be a major positive incentive for me to purchase. Renting out your 3.5M condo for 15K , not that great unless there is appreciation involved. Renting for 1.4K per night makes more sense. Since it has become more common to do ST sale prices have gone up, it is looked on as a better investment by most. It would appear the occupancy rates are quite high, 75% would return nearly 10% annual return, ST maybe 3% and that would be 100% rented yearly.

Edited May 18, 2018 by JAZZDOG
typo

[4MyEgo]

5 hours ago, newnative said:

And, now on to Pattaya and let's win there.

I recently stayed in a short term condominium unit for a week in Pattaya which was advertised on the net, it was part of a medium rise with a hotel within it, don't exactly know what the set up is there, but it was 20,000 baht cheaper for the week Vs a family of 6 staying in a hotel.

 

I cannot see how that would impact on anyone ?

[bkk6060]

14 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

Actually the right to rent daily/weekly would be a major positive incentive for me to purchase. Renting out your 3.5M condo for 15K , not that great unless there is appreciation involved. Renting for 1.4K per night makes more sense. Since it has become more common to do ST sale prices have gone up, it is looked on as a better investment by most. It would appear the occupancy rates are quite high, 75% would return nearly 10% annual return, ST maybe 3% and that would be 100% rented yearly.

Oh for sure.

I know a lady who rents 20 units all ST.  It is good money just takes time to manage it.  She has an assistant.

You do have to meet the customers and of course get it cleaned after.

But yes, muliply it out she makes very good money on those units.

[JAZZDOG]

14 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Oh for sure.

I know a lady who rents 20 units all ST.  It is good money just takes time to manage it.  She has an assistant.

You do have to meet the customers and of course get it cleaned after.

But yes, muliply it out she makes very good money on those units.

Buyers are aware that this is taking place as part of due diligence, don't like the fact you are going to be subjected to ST renters, don't purchase or don't complain later.

Much better to invest in a project with robust rental activity if you expect equity appreciation. Cant have it both ways.

[Peterw42]

50 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

Actually the right to rent daily/weekly would be a major positive incentive for me to purchase. Renting out your 3.5M condo for 15K , not that great unless there is appreciation involved. Renting for 1.4K per night makes more sense. Since it has become more common to do ST sale prices have gone up, it is looked on as a better investment by most. It would appear the occupancy rates are quite high, 75% would return nearly 10% annual return, ST maybe 3% and that would be 100% rented yearly.

It all sounds great on paper but at the end of the day ST rental is running a business. you need employees to meet and greet, check in/out, be available 24 hours a day. You need to employ cleaners after every visit, Linen needs to be laundered and changed, inventory checked etc. Guests can run up huge internet, water, electricity bills, running the airconn 24 hours a day with the doors open etc. Not to mention liability insurance, ongoing maintenance and repairs etc and Airbnb commission.

 

Conservative figres

Insurance and commission 100b per day

Cleaning 300 b per day

Laundry 200b per day

24 hour staff 200b per day

Electricity, internet, cable TV 200b per day

 

I know a guy that was doing it in Phuket and gave it up because after costs he was making nothing.

There are some pretty good net returns just doing LT rentals.

 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Peterw42

[bkk7]

19 hours ago, Spock said:

If you are paying 35000 a month, you are obviously not short of money yourself. I am sure you are in a good position to complain to the relevant moo bahn authorities or slip the police a brown envelope to expedite action regarding your concerns. You are obviously quite friendly with your neighbour or you would not know the intimate details of his financial arrangements. Maybe warn him of your intentions and point out to him the risks he faces in the current anti airbnb climate. 

 

Anyway now that airbnb is public enemy number 1, you have the perfect opportunity to call for action over the disturbances. Interestingly, airbnb is perfectly legal in the more affluent countries, such as Australia, which have much tighter regulations regarding noise, taxes, sub-letting etc. It is kind of strange that less regulated and wealthy countries such as Thailand choose to clamp down on practices that seem perfectly acceptable in Australia, Europe and America. 

so highlighted 2 parts there:

1) i know the details because he blabbed about them when he first moved in. he's not around enough now. he's actually in Canada with his gf while his gf's non-English speaking sister runs the illegal hotel. i see her often - and as innocent as she might be because she doesn't know any better, i shouldn't have to suffer because of this. 

 

2) i am from San Francisco, which is 'affluent' and AirBnB has faced the same kind of response as it has here.

[JAZZDOG]

5 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

It all sounds great on paper but at the end of the day ST rental is running a business. you need employees to meet and greet, check in/out, be available 24 hours a day. You need to employ cleaners after every visit, Linen needs to be laundered and changed, inventory checked etc. Guests can run up huge internet, water, electricity bills, running the airconn 24 hours a day with the doors open etc. Not to mention liability insurance, ongoing maintenance and repairs etc and Airbnb commission.

 

I know a guy that was doing it in Phuket and gave it up because after costs he was making nothing.

There are some pretty good net returns just doing LT rentals.

 

 

 

What type properties give good net returns based on initial cost plus expenses?

Just interested in your local knowledge as mine is quite limited based on listings.

[JAZZDOG]

2 minutes ago, bkk7 said:

so highlighted 2 parts there:

1) i know the details because he blabbed about them when he first moved in. he's not around enough now. he's actually in Canada with his gf while his gf's non-English speaking sister runs the illegal hotel. i see her often - and as innocent as she might be because she doesn't know any better, i shouldn't have to suffer because of this. 

 

2) i am from San Francisco, which is 'affluent' and AirBnB has faced the same kind of response as it has here.

So much for being a sanctuary city

[Peterw42]

11 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

What type properties give good net returns based on initial cost plus expenses?

Just interested in your local knowledge as mine is quite limited based on listings.

In the lower price range 1m-2m, you can get 10% returns. A million baht condo can rent for 10,000 a month. As the purchase price goes up the rent doesn't always go up accordingly.

[utalkin2me]

I can sympethize with all sides here, but if you bought a condo in pattaya or nana i think it is a bit dubious to complain about a party atmosphere in your building. 

 

Personally, i love using airbnb when i travel in thailand. Think three bedrooms with a private pool and full kitchen for 40 bucks a night. Hotels do not even get close. 

 

The actual decisions on these matters are always political, ie the people with money are the ones deciding. No politician cares that a condo on the beach is turning into a frat house unless he lives there. Point: there are no noble intentions, unfortunately. 

 

I think if we all stood back and objectively thought about this a while, we would decide you habe to let people rent their own properties. It is their property afterall.

 

The consequences of short stay occupants is simply life. You can either moan about it, or so something anout it like not live in nana. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by utalkin2me

[newnative]

4 hours ago, smx1313 said:

To answer "How?" here's what happened to a bohemian artist type friend in New York City.

 

She hit the lottery twice.

The 1st time was living in a true rent stabilized 2 bedroom apt in the West Village. Paying $300 a month in a building where similar apartments were north of $4000 a month.

The 2nd time was when AirBnB came along. She found that she could rent the extra room at market rates. Her neighborhood is the epicenter trendy downtown cool. AirBnB was a goddamn money printing machine.

 

It was great until the day lawyers with papers accompanied by people with guns and badges came knocking on the poor bohemian artist's door. 

It turned out that a nice couple who recently booked the room thru AirBnB where undercover officers wearing hidden carefully disguised audio and video recording devices.

 

You see, the owner of the building had a special kind of anger for people who rented at 1980 rates and then made huge profits off his property. He too had learned that AirBnB was a money printing machine. However, those reaping the profits didn't pay property tax, insurance, heat, water, or the million other ways NYC had of making landlords pay.

When he found his apartments on AirBnB he took action.

 

NYC has very specific rental laws and even more specific penalties for people found breaking those laws.

When the case was presented in court the badges and lawyers came with screen grabs, audio, video, leases and laws. 

She was found guilty.

Not only was she evicted from a dream apt that had been her home for nearly 30 years, she was fined for each violation. Because she had been AirBnBing since it began, there were stacks of violations. The fines easily hit $50,000.00.

Payable to the landlord!

Love it. Teach her a hard lesson.

[JAZZDOG]

2 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

It is a true joke.

Yes, there are signs all around The Base but just ignored.

I am not sure why the Thai owners don't complain more.  Or go to the cops or file a lawsuit.  Not sure of the right avenue.

Hard to put the cat back in the bag at this point. ST has become a legitimate if not legal use at this point. Units obviously are being marketed based on ST use. Anyone interesting in purchasing need only sit in the lobby 5 minutes to see the deal. Don't like it move on is the right avenue, you lose your right to complain if you were  aware from the jump. If you weren't aware you need to pay more attention.