Thai words that aren't really Thai

[EricTh]

I read from this blog that a lot of Thai words that the teachers taught me aren't really Thai, they are Indian in origin. 

 

http://eastasiaorigin.blogspot.com/2017/08/origin-of-thai-language.html

 

I don't know why those Thai teachers like to teach Indic words when common Thai people on the street don't really use them.

 

Is there any Thai schools in CM that actually teach the way that normal Thai speak rather than those formal Indian words?

 

[poanoi]

thais use many words with origins from india, your task is futile,

much like the english word window stems from the norse word wind-eye,

i.e the hole in the roof for letting the smoke out,

what else should an englishman call a window these days ?

maybe eurohole

[EricTh]

1 hour ago, poanoi said:

thais use many words with origins from india, your task is futile,

much like the english word window stems from the norse word wind-eye,

i.e the hole in the roof for letting the smoke out,

what else should an englishman call a window these days ?

maybe eurohole

 

In the case of English, if there are no alternative words, then you must use it. Did you read the article above?

 

In the case of Thai, there are alternative native words that are not Indian in origin and that are surprisingly not taught in Thai schools but used by native Thai people.

[tifino]

oh well... the most commonly heard Thai borrowed word would have to be 'falang'

 

or, was it borrowed from the Hindi?   

अमरूद 

[Jane Dough]

Does not khru or teacher come from guru.....

[EricTh]

2 hours ago, Jane Dough said:

Does not khru or teacher come from guru.....

Seems like both Khru and Ajarn are of Indic origin.

 

I wonder what is the native Thai word for teacher.

[Seligne2]

Lots of words like หมา mǎa (dog) and สุนัข sù~nák (dog). The former is "Thai", the latter from Sanskrit. You will hear both used. No alternative to learning both if you want to understand.

[Oxx]

16 hours ago, EricTh said:

I wonder what is the native Thai word for teacher.

 

ผู้สอน?

[Oxx]

19 hours ago, EricTh said:

In the case of Thai, there are alternative native words that are not Indian in origin and that are surprisingly not taught in Thai schools but used by native Thai people.

 

I'm not sure how true that is (well, apart from obscenities).  However, a school's objective would be to teach you to be able to speak respectable Thai, not gutter Thai.  And to do that, one needs to learn formal words.

 

(If you ever hear someone speaking Thai who has learned it from a bar girl, it's immediately obvious what sort of person he is.  Speak respectable Thai and nobody will know if you're a whoremonger or not.)

[EricTh]

2 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

I'm not sure how true that is (well, apart from obscenities).  However, a school's objective would be to teach you to be able to speak respectable Thai, not gutter Thai.  And to do that, one needs to learn formal words.

 

 

 

I beg to differ, I would rather learn a native Thai word rather than an Indian word.

Only when I decide to get a degree in Thai, would I need to learn all these formal words.

 

My main purpose is to communicate with everyday Thai people, not those government officials or teachers.

 

I was in a Thai class , and when I mentioned the Thai word for dog which is commonly used as an example, none of my other classmates know what it means because the teacher only taught them the formal word for dog which normal Thai people don't use.

 

That's the same as English teachers not teaching foreigners the word 'guy or gal' which are informal but widely used. That's nothing 'gutter' about using 'guy or gal' versus 'damsel/lady or gentleman'.

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by EricTh

[tgeezer]

I can't argue with your approach EricTh. Like all languages education improves one's ability to communicate but street language is adequate in that both 'hi' and 'lo' undetsand it.


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[digbeth]

I doubt that there's really a school that teaches สุนัข but not หมา

 

If there really is a school as such, I think it's the quality of the school that's the problem, not whether Thai has too much loanwords from Sanskrit.

 

It'd be equally preposterous for a learner of English as foreign language to complain that English contain too many words with French/German/Greek and Latin origin ruining the spelling with all the irregularities why cant dem skool teach english like how we speek it on da street innit?

[QuantumMech]

On 5/22/2018 at 11:03 PM, EricTh said:

I don't know why those Thai teachers like to teach Indic words when common Thai people on the street don't really use them.

I didn't see that article say that common Thai people on the street don't use the Sanskrit-derived words. They entered the Thai language hundreds of years ago, and all of the examples given are very common words: ภรรยา, สามี, ประเทศ, ทาน, คุณ. I would be very surprised if the average Thai person didn't know those words. We're not talking ราชาศัพท์/royal language here.

 

And as that article says, some native Thai words are now considered crude. You're not going to win any friends by calling people มึง because you want to stick with native Thai vocabulary.

 

In any case, my point is that just because a word has a foreign origin doesn't mean that it's too fancy for the average person. "Pork", "beef", and "poultry" are from French, but they're very common English words. The native Germanic "pig", "cow", and "chicken" are also very common, but have a slightly different meaning or connotation.

[surfdog]

I doubt that there's really a school that teaches สุนัข but not หมา
 
If there really is a school as such, I think it's the quality of the school that's the problem, not whether Thai has too much loanwords from Sanskrit.
 
It'd be equally preposterous for a learner of English as foreign language to complain that English contain too many words with French/German/Greek and Latin origin ruining the spelling with all the irregularities why cant dem skool teach english like how we speek it on da street innit?

hard to add to this! But even more needs said, native ‘Thai’ is spelled ‘Tai’ and Tai speakers are now mostly found in Yunnan, China. You are in the wrong country to learn Tai. Thai is a mixture of Tai, Pali, Khmer, and even Portugese and French. I think they say Thai is more Khmer in syntax, but Pali and Tai in vocabulary.

But I get your reasoning and your frustration, your Thai teacher is teaching formal Thai, and it’s not helpful because you need colloquial Thai more on the streets, Also has to do with ‘written’ vs ‘spoken’ language. This type of teacher absolutely will insist “kup” is not a word, you must say “krup.”

Find a new teacher, one who would teach both colloquial and formal at the same time. Or just teach yourself, I did, have friends who did, and likely other forum members have.

[surfdog]

double post

[Damrongsak]

From the site linked above ... I was taught the formal in Peace Corps training, perhaps a few of the informal in the top table.  Definitely learned Kuu and Meung up in Isaan.  I do shift from informal to formal based on the person I'm talking with.  Do they drive a samlor or a shiny SUV?

 

[surfdog]

kapajao is the one missing in your table for I
ข้าพเจ้า
still used in buddhist prayer


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[tingtongtourist]

It is a good thing to learn multiple words whether they be Sanskrit or not.

all Thais know them anyway.

 

The very new learner nearly always get tripped up when saying  หมา and  ม้า 

 

and it can be a tad embarrassing if you say you like riding dogs or you got bitten by a horse out in the soi.

 

thats one example where you can avoid the trickier word for dog and use "sunak"

and errr..not look like a goose

 

[Damrongsak]

Many "I" or "us" words, or related. I had forgotten " kapajao ". 

 

me

ฉัน, ผม, ข้าพเจ้า, ดิฉัน, กัน

ourself

ข้าพเจ้า, เราเอง

[Damrongsak]

9 minutes ago, tingtongtourist said:

... and it can be a tad embarrassing if you say you like riding dogs or you got bitten by a horse out in the soi. ...

Even worse if you try to say you like to ride horses and it comes out that you like dog poop.   The tones and vowel length are a killer.  But great fun if you are drinking beer with family and friends and busting on each other.  Cheap entertainment.

[tgeezer]

I can't remember anyone using กู to me, if they had then I missed it and continued to refer to myself as ผม which is the word taught me. ข้าพระเจ้า has never been used to me and sounds very formal, God's Servant or similar.


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[surfdog]

4 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I can't remember anyone using กู to me, if they had then I missed it and continued to refer to myself as ผม which is the word taught me. ข้าพระเจ้า has never been used to me and sounds very formal, God's Servant or similar.


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straying a bit off topic, but just so you know 'gu' and 'meung' are extremely common, I hate to be a bit vulgar, but you could compare to two black people calling each other 'nigga.'  Playful use of vulgar language, but would not be used with foreigners, however you should know the words and what they mean when overhearing two Thai people using them, or on tv (likely a comedy).

 

Kapajao is not used in comedy, it is used everyday in prayer, such as "kapajao kor..... lots of money, my mother to survive, etc."  So if you are not at the temple you likely won't overhear, but you may hear the word used in one of the popular tv series taking place during Ayutaya period, with lower class addressing upperclass - Kapajao, and upper class using 'Ka'.  I am not sure but I believe Kapajao is masculine, and Dichan is feminine for that time period for the lower class.

[surfdog]

4 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I can't remember anyone using กู to me, if they had then I missed it and continued to refer to myself as ผม which is the word taught me. ข้าพระเจ้า has never been used to me and sounds very formal, God's Servant or similar.


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also forgot to mention, referring to yourself as 'pom' routinely to people you know may seem snobby, but a foreigner speaking Thai is likely always forgiven, it is a lesson that only a Thai friend could teach you.  The proper way to address yourself between people you know is by your first name or nickname, but if possible do not use a subject at all, subject deletion is a key part of Thai grammar, inserting the subject is a common mistake.  Advance Thai writers consider subject deletion a part of intelligent writing, but for me it makes Thai dissertations unbearable to read.

 

simple example of subject deletion:

เมื่อวานผมไปทำงานที่เซ็นทรัล

more natural:  เมื่อวานไปทำงานที่เซ็นทรัล

So not saying subject deletion is better, but it is more normal, as the speaker the context is clear that you are talking about yourself.  However Thai people often have to ask for clarification or confirmation about 'who' went where or did what.

Edited June 1, 2018 by surfdog

[digbeth]

not only subject but prepositions can also and often be omitted and makes formal Thai writing clear as mud

[Briggsy]

I have reason to overhear students from a good university (entrance exam; government) on a regular basis. They do not know I speak Thai. Provided they are speaking between themselves I would say 80-90% กู/มึง all the time. The 10-20% who don't just don't know each other well enough.

 

Going back to the OP, I think he has been misled by his Thai teacher.

"Indian words" is a very vague concept.

These "Indian words", actually Pali-Sanskrit transliterations with Thai pronunciation, are totally integrated into the Thai language, occupying a more formal register, for the most part, and there is absolutely no option to choose whether or not to use or learn them.

 

I suspect this is just a bit of odd xenophobia creeping into the Thai teacher's lesson. Note there is no comment about Tae Jiew loan words which are far more recent, far less integrated, far more optional and far more linguistically marginalised. Perhaps the truth of the matter is the teacher unintentionally revealed his/her ethnic ancestry and bias.

[Katia]

On 5/27/2018 at 8:18 AM, QuantumMech said:

I didn't see that article say that common Thai people on the street don't use the Sanskrit-derived words. They entered the Thai language hundreds of years ago, and all of the examples given are very common words: ภรรยา, สามี, ประเทศ, ทาน, คุณ. I would be very surprised if the average Thai person didn't know those words. We're not talking ราชาศัพท์/royal language here.

 

And as that article says, some native Thai words are now considered crude. You're not going to win any friends by calling people มึง because you want to stick with native Thai vocabulary.

 

In any case, my point is that just because a word has a foreign origin doesn't mean that it's too fancy for the average person. "Pork", "beef", and "poultry" are from French, but they're very common English words. The native Germanic "pig", "cow", and "chicken" are also very common, but have a slightly different meaning or connotation.

Precisely.  My friend's Thai mother once let me know, when we were talking about eating, that I could use the word "ทาน" to be more polite-- by which I took to mean that the fact I had just used "กิน" when speaking with her was not the best option (too familiar for talking to an elder, even though I was speaking out of habit from being used to using it colloquially with people around my own age).  However, she also once let her son (my friend), who was born in the U.S., know that no one ever says "กิโล"-- it's always just "โล" (which I could have told him myself, as it's what I actually had been taught by my Thai teacher).

 

I'm lucky in that my Thai lessons included words people are more likely to reall use-- they were both written in the study book, and my teacher would always point out to me if a word wasn't as likely to be used by "real Thai speakers"-- "say this instead; if you say that, no one will understand you."  (All the same, while I value speaking the way people really tend to in daily life, I refuse to drop my Rs or turn them into Ls even though some commonly do... I wouldn't do the equivalent in English, either.)  But a lot of it is also, as someone else said, about listening to how other people speak and picking that up.  People will notice, and to me it seems the attitude sometimes shifts subtly when you appear to have learned Thai by actually speaking with Thai people rather than reading a formal book.

 

 

18 hours ago, tingtongtourist said:

The very new learner nearly always get tripped up when saying  หมา and  ม้า 

 

and it can be a tad embarrassing if you say you like riding dogs or you got bitten by a horse out in the soi.

 

thats one example where you can avoid the trickier word for dog and use "sunak"

and errr..not look like a goose

 

If confusing "หมา" and "ม้า" is the worst tone blunder you make, you're lucky, considering some of the worse possibilities!  I mean, imagine messing up telling the vendor you want some of that dipping sauce... (I know someone who giggles at the reactions he gets when he tells people his name is Jim) or the story I read (perhaps here) about the guy who offended a waitress when attempting to tell her he wanted two beers...

Edited June 1, 2018 by Katia

[EricTh]

2 hours ago, Briggsy said:

 

I suspect this is just a bit of odd xenophobia creeping into the Thai teacher's lesson. Note there is no comment about Tae Jiew loan words which are far more recent, far less integrated, far more optional and far more linguistically marginalised. 

 

Far less integrated? That's not true.

 

Please read the article below from the same blog.

 

http://eastasiaorigin.blogspot.com/2018/02/thai-words-of-chinese-origin-part-2.html

[surfdog]

losing the point on this thread.. still planning on speaking Thai without the formal registrar (aka 'Indian' words)?  You really going to go around referring to yourself as 'gu' and other people as 'meung'? 

[poanoi]

On 5/23/2018 at 12:58 PM, tifino said:

oh well... the most commonly heard Thai borrowed word would have to be 'falang'

 

or, was it borrowed from the Hindi?   

अमरूद 

afaik, farang stems from how the french introduced them self,

representing francee~~~~~~~~~ not easy to grasp french rolling sound even

from another white man, i could see myself calling them falangsee myself

Edited June 2, 2018 by poanoi

[Oxx]

16 minutes ago, poanoi said:

afaik, farang stems from how the french introduced them self,

 

That old chestnut yet again.  Quoting Wikipedia:

 

Quote

The word farang may have either originated from the Hindi word firangi (Devanāgarī: फिरंगी, "foreign"), a derogatory term for Europeans that was coined during British colonial rule in India, or from the Persian word farang (فرنگ) or farangī (فرنگی), meaning "Frank, European". 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farang