Not following Junta plan could soon be a crime - for 20 years

[sjaak327]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

The whole thing is scary and stupid, i can see things like water management that should be set for 20 years, maybe the same should be done for garbage disposal. But I don't really see it for the other stuff.

It is not applicable for anything, simply because things change, no-one can foresee events and circumstances in a 20 year period. Not to mention the fact that no democratic government should be forced to base their policies on something made up by unelected criminals. 

[candide]

6 hours ago, Dave67 said:

What a load a self-important rubbish as if that will be followed by any other Thai Government

Don't take it lightly. It is also written in the law that government agencies are legally bound to apply the decisions of the strategic committee, that the current Junta will control. So it means that if the government says you must do this, and the strategic committee says you must do the opposite, civil servants have to obey the Strategic Committee otherwise they may go to jail.

[Dave67]

3 hours ago, candide said:

Don't take it lightly. It is also written in the law that government agencies are legally bound to apply the decisions of the strategic committee, that the current Junta will control. So it means that if the government says you must do this, and the strategic committee says you must do the opposite, civil servants have to obey the Strategic Committee otherwise they may go to jail.

But Future Forward and PT, who I think will work together, will rip up the constitution 

[Destiny1990]

Why only 20 years better make it 200 yeats plan long term control.

[Poottrong]

10 hours ago, robblok said:

 

It would be nice if they could decrease army spending  

Given that traditionally the elite class has derived their incomes directly and indirectly through the military that would be asking a lot!

[robblok]

7 hours ago, sjaak327 said:

It is not applicable for anything, simply because things change, no-one can foresee events and circumstances in a 20 year period. Not to mention the fact that no democratic government should be forced to base their policies on something made up by unelected criminals. 

I disagree, for stuff like water management it is needed, because look what happend YL never started her stuff Prayut never his stuff and you can bet that the next government scraps the water management again for studies. Sorry some things are important enough to put there for 20 years water management is one of them. But all the other crap (what its most likely used for) no way.

[robblok]

8 hours ago, sjaak327 said:

But checks and balances were definitely in place.

 

The trouble in Thailand was very very simple, a vocal but powerful minority couldn't accept the outcome of elections, and subsquently used their power to disrupt elections. The last two coups have both been staged whilst elections were scheduled and under way, nothing more needs to be said really.

 

Why are you talking about Thaksin's amnesty ? Whilst it was certainly not without controversy, the fact remains that this amnesty (that did not only benefit Thaksin by the way) was introduced by a government that had a mandate of 300 out of 500 MP's or in other words, fully justified. Let me repeat this again, as it points exactly to what I was talking about in the previous paragraph, a elected government introduces a policy, that is exactly what they are supposed to be doing. But it goes further, after the amnesty law was rejected by the senate, Suthep came out, and not long thereafter Yingluck dissolved the house, effectively making the amnesty law impossible without a renewed mandate. So trying to suggest the coup was to prevent the amnesty is utter and utter <deleted>.  Not to mention the fact, that the amnesty that never made it was indeed replaced by one that did make it through, and no member of the electorate had a say in it. It just protects the lawbreakers of the NCPO. Way worse than the amnesty they protested against. Another piece of evidence it wasn't really about the amnesty of course, it was about who gets control of the country. Remember the reforms before elections crap Suthep tried to pull ? Utter disgrace, a bigger disregard for the people of Thailand I cannot think about. 

 

the coup was staged exactly for the reason I mentioned, and this very thread is ample evidence of this fact. 

 

In a democracy plans have to be changed, that's the way the game is played, four years later the electorate can take the people they have voted in into  account, and vote for others or vote them back in.

 

This 20 year roadmap is ludicrous to the extreme, this from people that have trouble planning a month ahead, let alone 20 years, but again, the roadmap as such is of no importance, this is just another vehicle (there are more as per the constitution) to control this country by unelected people that are behind the coup. I hope PT and other parties will end this charade somehow. This has absolutely nothing to do with democracy. and everyone knows it. 

I disagree about checks and balances being in place and that Thailand its democracy was mature like western ones. You are just deluding yourself to even think this way. But i said it again lets agree to disagree as we will never see eye to eye here.

 

Many law makers felt as long as the government was in place they could revive it so your opinion was not 100% shared, and its a peoples right to protest and thankfully it brought down the Shins. You do remember how miraculously his name appeared between readings while it was assured he would stay out of it. Does not sound much like a real democracy, and governments that pull that kinds of stunts cant be trusted hence nobody believed them they would not revive the amnesty. They made the coup possible far easier as it ever has been there have even been news articles with PTP figures where they admitted so.

 

The coup was indeed for what you say it was for but PTP made it easy created the perfect situation for it too happen. I mean if your enemy has a gun you don't have to load it for him and place it at your head to make things easier. 

 

I agree that for most things 20 years is too long and that this plan is only for the junta's benefit, but i disagree that 20 year plans don't have their value, especially for water management. I said it before each goverment is constantly changing the plans of the last and in the end nothing happens. A 20 year plan would take care of that and save the people (and me) from some flooding. So yes I am for those kind of 20 year plans. The same can be said for garbage problems, it takes longer then 4 years so master plans can be useful.

[BobBKK]

I'm looking forward to the next government overturning this madness, les majeste and prosecuting Dim and Dumb.

[greenchair]

So I suppose there would need to be a clause to say who will step in as caretaker if the government were ordered to step down. 

I imagine that would be forced on Mr p 

 

[greenchair]

12 minutes ago, robblok said:

I disagree about checks and balances being in place and that Thailand its democracy was mature like western ones. You are just deluding yourself to even think this way. But i said it again lets agree to disagree as we will never see eye to eye here.

 

Many law makers felt as long as the government was in place they could revive it so your opinion was not 100% shared, and its a peoples right to protest and thankfully it brought down the Shins. You do remember how miraculously his name appeared between readings while it was assured he would stay out of it. Does not sound much like a real democracy, and governments that pull that kinds of stunts cant be trusted hence nobody believed them they would not revive the amnesty. They made the coup possible far easier as it ever has been there have even been news articles with PTP figures where they admitted so.

 

The coup was indeed for what you say it was for but PTP made it easy created the perfect situation for it too happen. I mean if your enemy has a gun you don't have to load it for him and place it at your head to make things easier. 

 

I agree that for most things 20 years is too long and that this plan is only for the junta's benefit, but i disagree that 20 year plans don't have their value, especially for water management. I said it before each goverment is constantly changing the plans of the last and in the end nothing happens. A 20 year plan would take care of that and save the people (and me) from some flooding. So yes I am for those kind of 20 year plans. The same can be said for garbage problems, it takes longer then 4 years so master plans can be useful.

The budget for water management was reduced by a third this year, whilst security and military budget went up. 

Again. 

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, greenchair said:

The budget for water management was reduced by a third this year, whilst security and military budget went up. 

Again. 

I don't know would like to see the budget, I believe you. The military budget should go down. But I am not complaining about the water budget, im complaining nothing has been done. Budget or no budget. First we got YL after 2011 not doing a thing and now we got Prayut not doing a thing. Yea both making plans but never fulfilling them. 7 years since 2011 and not much has changed. 

 

So yes I support 20 year plans in certain cases.

[Chang_paarp]

It is just a piece of legislation. It is something that can be changed, amended or deleted by any future government.

 

It is not as if it is written into the constitution.

[Monomial]

12 hours ago, sjaak327 said:

Of course there was real democracy, there is no doubt.

 

Actually there is lots of doubt about this statement, but that is beside the point.

 

Democracies rarely if ever survive the appearance of demagogues. Even the ancient Greeks knew this, which is where the word comes from. It isn't a shocking, new discovery.

 

Once Thaksin came on the scene, whatever flavor of democracy that existed in Thailand was doomed. Demagogues always indicate the end stage of a democracy. Prayut is just one possible consequence of the people electing a demagogue like Thaksin to power. It could also have gone the way of Cambodia if the military had not intervened.

 

Thailand is not alone though. The USA is also in its own throws of democratic disaster now that Trump has been elected. History gives us ample evidence that this is the beginning of the end for the American empire. Of course, each country decays according to its own culture, and while Thai democracy may have ended in a military dictatorship, the USA is likely to fracture and eventually break into two or more new republics.

 

Demagogues are always bad news. They signal deep divisions within a society, and a people unwilling or unable to face the real problems associated with their conflict. Democracy simply doesn't work under these conditions. Doubt this if you want, but history has proven this to be absolutely correct.

 

 

[robblok]

44 minutes ago, Chang_paarp said:

It is just a piece of legislation. It is something that can be changed, amended or deleted by any future government.

 

It is not as if it is written into the constitution.

Lets hope so as its too restrictive.

[candide]

3 hours ago, Dave67 said:

But Future Forward and PT, who I think will work together, will rip up the constitution 

I don't see by which legal mechanism they can do it.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, candide said:

I don't see by which legal mechanism they can do it.

If they get enough votes they can amend the constitution ? Did YL not try something similar ? 

 

Or does the senate with its part appointed senators is too powerful to ever overcome ? 

[Lupatria]

14 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

Not following Junta plan could soon be a crime - for 20 years

For some reason I read:

Not following Junta plan could soon be a crime - punishment 20 years!

[candide]

1 hour ago, Chang_paarp said:

It is just a piece of legislation. It is something that can be changed, amended or deleted by any future government.

 

It is not as if it is written into the constitution.

As far as I understand, the concept and the fact that the plan is legally binding are in the constitution. Only the Strategic Committee is allowed to change the content of the  plan, and it will be controlled by the Junta.

About amending the constitution: it requires very constraining majority rules (I don't remember which ones), and needs to be approved by the puppet senate anyway.

[neeray]

None of this, especially a 20 year plan designed by an army, sounds very democratic. Oh yes, Thai style democracy.

[JAG]

16 minutes ago, candide said:

I don't see by which legal mechanism they can do it.

 

11 minutes ago, robblok said:

If they get enough votes they can amend the constitution ? Did YL not try something similar ? 

 

Or does the senate with its part appointed senators is too powerful to ever overcome ? 

If a party (or more likely) a coalition does manage to muster the votes to change the constitution then I suspect this is what will happen: 

A protest movement, including "people's and "democracy" in its title will emerge, led by Suthep. They will cause chaos in Bangkok, probably seize parliament and the government offices. An election will be called, but the Army will stage a coup as inevitably it will look like the "wrong" people will be returned to government.

 

You can bet your last Baht on it - or you could if Suthep and his merry men, staging one of their mobile protection rackets (sorry I meant march to solicit donations) haven't passed by and taken it.

 

There is only one way this will be changed, and that will be messy.

[candide]

31 minutes ago, robblok said:

If they get enough votes they can amend the constitution ? Did YL not try something similar ? 

 

Or does the senate with its part appointed senators is too powerful to ever overcome ? 

I found something more precise:

"It will require 1/3 of senate votes in the 1st and 3rd readings together with at least 20% MPs from each opposition party and also the approval from the President and Deputy President of Parliament to amend the constitution. A public referendum is required to amend certain sections. "

https://prachatai.com/english/node/7062

 

It also explains why the Junta wants small pro-military parties. Any small party can block an amendment.

[robblok]

Just now, candide said:

I found something more precise:

"It will require 1/3 of senate votes in the 1st and 3rd readings together with at least 20% MPs from each opposition party and also the approval from the President and Deputy President of Parliament to amend the constitution. A public referendum is required to amend certain sections. "

https://prachatai.com/english/node/7062

 

It also explains why the Junta wants small pro-military parties. Any small party can block an amendment.

The problem i see is 20% of MP's from the opposition. 

[candide]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

The problem i see is 20% of MP's from the opposition. 

From EACH opposition party!

[robblok]

Just now, candide said:

From EACH opposition party!

Yes then if you got some fanatic supporters of the army your screwed. I do see logic in 20% of oposition MP's but in this case its a hurdle. 

[candide]

22 minutes ago, JAG said:

 

If a party (or more likely) a coalition does manage to muster the votes to change the constitution then I suspect this is what will happen: 

A protest movement, including "people's and "democracy" in its title will emerge, led by Suthep. They will cause chaos in Bangkok, probably seize parliament and the government offices. An election will be called, but the Army will stage a coup as inevitably it will look like the "wrong" people will be returned to government.

 

You can bet your last Baht on it - or you could if Suthep and his merry men, staging one of their mobile protection rackets (sorry I meant march to solicit donations) haven't passed by and taken it.

 

There is only one way this will be changed, and that will be messy.

See my post #51. Actually, Suthep will be able to block any amendment through his party, without needing to protest.

That's why the Junta decided  very tough laws against protests. The yellows will not need to protest any more as there are several mechanisms in place to legally achieve their aims. Only people opposed to the army will need to protest as the constitution locks nearly everything in.

[jesimps]

14 hours ago, robblok said:

I believe it was never really here in the first place. (Democracy). There has always been a form of Thai democracy but it was hardly a full version of democracy with real checks and balances.

 

The 20 year plan is crazy if its too strict, though planning a bit further ahead would not be a bad thing for stuff like watermanagement (Prayut has neglected it). Seems like every government comes up with new plans for the flooding but it never survives a next government. These kind of things should be in such a plan.  What Prayut puts into it is just too restrictive.

 

It would be nice if they could decrease army spending and abolish the draft as been suggested. 

Of course there were checks and balances, in the form of the military and "The Dark Govt" looking over their shoulder.

[Eric Loh]

I remember Wissanu said last year that this 20 years strategic plan will need to have a legal framework with 120 days of the charter being promulgated. Then it will be legally binding to all agencies. The bill will also have to be royally endorsed. What we got here is that the NLA is saying that the plan if not finalized and therefore the legal framework can't proceed and it is now more than 120 days. This junta move in an opague and mysterious way with the left not knowing the right and throws more confusion into the mix. What about the law on the appointment of National Strategy Commission members that drive this strategy. Anyone got any idea? 

[dave moir]

15 hours ago, sjaak327 said:

So even with a valid and solid mandate, any government is still bound to a twenty year road map drafted by people who lack such mandate and broke the law to be in this position.

Does anyone believe democracy will return to Thailand...

Sent from my SM-J730GM using Tapatalk
 

Might as well keep the junta in power as they are setting all the laws up before the election. Democracy at it's finest!!!?

[Somchai Logic]

The Cold War ended,

The Berlin Wall came down,

Big K is in Singapore today meeting T-Bone

Yet there is no hope for these AR$3 C1own5 

[mlmcleod]

What's the use of having a democracy if there can be no choices?  Oh, I get it, it's Thailand!

Edited July 19, 2018 by metisdead
Bold font removed again. Please stop using bold font when posting.