Thais and English: Stop the rote learning, be brave to speak, get better jobs and be happy!

[Eligius]

1 minute ago, mok199 said:

ah yes the purchase , but ''the purchase return'' is even worse..

And don't forget the golden rule: NEVER ask a Thai shop assistant for information about anything.  They know nothing about any of the goods they sell. They are worse than useless. They will blithely tell you that they do not have a particular product in stock ('mai mee') - when there is a whole stash of that product piled up to the ceiling, right behind them!

[Aussieroaming]

8 hours ago, jaltsc said:

"In addition to getting better jobs and more money their life is enhanced by being able to speak English."

 

How can they tell? Most bar girls speak better English than Thais with college degrees majoring in English. I've met some of these graduates, and they can't understand or speak any English.

Do they speak English or barfly

[timkeen08]

6 hours ago, mok199 said:

i have lived here 20 years,and have never once (not one time) heard thais outside of a school setting ,speaking English in an attempt (in a safe enviorment of classmates) to better themselves. I have on numerous occasions asked '' why don't you and your freinds try "" the answer is always the same ,even their thai parents say '' shy''...in my opinion it is laziness and a lack of motivation..shy is the easy excuse

Four of my Thai nieces frequently speak very good English to each other, their parents, and with some of their Thai friends who also speak English.  Many Thai youth speak decent English but are shy, are not comfortable, or have any use to speak English often enough.

 

The parents sent all four of their daughters to American high schools on one year exchange student programs.  They practice and help each other with their English quite a bit.  I have a lot of conversations with them in English when we do take trips to Bangkok, on facebook, or over the phone.

 

All have gone, or are going,  to university and have really good paying jobs.  The youngest is a third year medical student and proudly just received her white lab coat.  The oldest makes three million baht a year as, an English speaking only, administrator for a big foreign company in Bangkok.

 

All are required to speak in English at their jobs, or med school.  I have been asked to proofread a few reports and memorandums.   I also helped with a request letter for our med student towards a one month medical exchange program to China which she was awarded.  Very few spelling, wrong word, or grammatical errors were found.  But I did show them some tips on how to rearrange sentences or reword some words to look more professional with a focus on showing an understanding of English grammar.

 

Not all Thai people or parents are ignorant of the benefits of being proficient in the English language.

 

My wife is no longer shy when we meet English speaking foreigners and she is getting better and better.

[DrTuner]

40 minutes ago, mok199 said:

yes we as a family had the ''crap'' talk a few years ago..also the grunt for yes and the lower grunt for no ''talk'', I said to my wife '' real words exist for yes and no,we don't use grunts in this house''...as for the gender alignment and polite ponoun ''crap'' we alow it ( but not over the top) I am not happy about this decision but happy wife happy life....the battle continues

It's a good idea to lay down the rules. Myself I only use growls of different pitch, understood perfectly by my wife and litter. I might bare teeth for emphasis once in a while. No craps here, for sure.

[timewilltell]

I think there is a point to include basic Grammar in teaching English to Thais.  The structure of Thai and English is different and confusing at first to young (and older) learners.  The issue is that grammar has to be taught along with reading, writing, composition,comprehension and vocabulary as an integral part.  Thais do need to know the importance of commas and how they can change a sentence, what a semi-colon and colon mean and paragraphing etc.  They don't need this at a very young age - it should be brought in incrementally.  Younger children cannot remember the words they use to express ideas well so need a little partnership too.  From what I see of the misunderstanding that surrounds every hour of a normal Thai life, it seems that education fails miserably across the board and English is at the bottom because they refuse to value teachers from the West and abuse them terribly - hence being left with the Thai teachers who really have no clue what they are doing or importing Filipinos who they are certain speak perfect English - really is a joke all round.

[NetJunkie]

8 hours ago, overherebc said:

I can't remember when I had my first real grammar periods at school but I'm sure it was when I was around the age of 12 or 13. It certainly wasn't at 5 or 6 years old.

Simple past, present and future tenses are enough with young children.

 

Tenses are "real" grammar.

[NetJunkie]

3 hours ago, hotchilli said:

They can learn English in the same manner That they learnt their native Thai language... by listening & replying

as they did with their mothers/fathers/siblings etc from the age of 2 or less

all without the ability to read a single word from a book let alone understand grammar...

grammar comes naturally with speaking the technicalities of grammar can come later when they understand what's being said!!!
 

 

You are aware that they speak Thai at home, Thai to their friends, Thai at the shops, Thai everywhere? That is why English, (a second language), requires far more effort on both the student's and teacher's part.

[overherebc]

46 minutes ago, NetJunkie said:

 

You are aware that they speak Thai at home, Thai to their friends, Thai at the shops, Thai everywhere? That is why English, (a second language), requires far more effort on both the student's and teacher's part.

Of course it require effort from both, but, in the vast majority of cases grammar seems to be the most important thing being taught.

I could learn all the rules for golf and probably pass a test on golf rules. If it was a 'tick A, B or C type exam,' probably score 100% ? but I stiil couldn't play golf.

[chaingman]

10 hours ago, PatOngo said:

goos

 

10 hours ago, PatOngo said:

English

 

10 hours ago, PatOngo said:

English

You retard

 

[Dumbastheycome]

10 hours ago, flyingtlger said:

Most of the Thai gals I know are pretty good at that......

 

Proves  the  point...in a way. lol

[timkeen08]

1 hour ago, Dumbastheycome said:

Proves  the  point...in a way. lol

After I went to the one year required foreign language class, German, in high school while in Germany where my dad was stationed, it helped me a lot and I used it more since the US military family housings were usually located off base.  We interacted with many Germans who spoke some English, the youth did quite well with 4 years of English required.

 

Easy to say but the Thai language does not use the alphabet.  Just consonant symbols (in three different tones) and five times the vowel symbols than English, in all different tones.  Then add the tone marker symbols that change everyway the consonants and vowels normally sound which creates a totally unsimilar sounding word and definition.  It's all tone.  English tones only determine emotions, questions, intents, etc... or are just monotone.

 

Now take Thai that very large symboled and tonal dependent language then try to teach Thais to forget everything they learned and use every day everywhere.  Everything grammatically is backwards and we don't make the same phonic sounds as Thais do.

 

All are taught English incorrectly at the fault of the school system by many teachers not fully speaking or understanding correct English transliterating generation upon generation after another and we have what we do now.  To us, an H is an H not a hesh.  Generations of Thais have been taught this way.  How about putting an s sound at the end of the word house.  Again generationally English is taught incorrectly because a lot of Thai words are left open ended.  The same as four is pronounced fo.  Let's not forget the V = W sound

 

I have found a possible solution to the problems for my wife but I have no educational degrees or certificates.  I help my wife with English from remembering sitting in on speach therapy methods that helped my son in the mid to late 90s.  I teach her sounds and combination of sounds that I eventually make into common words that she usually mispronounces.  I use the eraser end of a clean pencil to help her shape her mouth, teeth, and tongue placements with timely use of breaths.  I take my dentures out and show her where to put or hold her tongue against the teeth, gums, or top of the mouth.  Even the way to shape and change the shape of the tongue.  When she gets that right I start throwing in sounds in a sing song way.  Then to the similar sounding words. Then I move on to the next lesson.  Thais don't use the same placements and shapes as we do.

 

I would love to make an animated 3D full mouth program for differebces between Thai and English phonics but I always hated programming and did as little as possible.

 

[bandito]

16 hours ago, mok199 said:

i have lived here 20 years,and have never once (not one time) heard thais outside of a school setting ,speaking English in an attempt (in a safe enviorment of classmates) to better themselves. I have on numerous occasions asked '' why don't you and your freinds try "" the answer is always the same ,even their thai parents say '' shy''...in my opinion it is laziness and a lack of motivation..shy is the easy excuse

 

Well I live here for over 40 yrs.

In that time I have met a lot of Thais who spoke English fluently.

Included song-thaw drivers and tuk-tuk drivers who spoke, read and write English.

Also Thais who spoke passable English.

Daughter of my neighbor speaks read and write English fluently as do another neigbor of mine.

Many of them went to University and could'nt find a job so found another occupation.

Thai IT store where I shop the owner speaks good English.

You should go and talk more with bar girls.

 

[poanoi]

17 hours ago, darksidedog said:

This is something we all know to be true. Thais are appalling at English, even most of the teachers can't speak it. Rote learning of anything does not teach you how to learn, just how to remember, which is of no practical use in real life. One wonders how they can bring this to reality, when foreigners who can speak it properly, have such a hard time getting employed?

disagree, now that i forgot most words, i find myself unable to speak thai,

even simple, or rather, should be simple conversations are now gone from

my options and ability, and its the amount of words in the data bank that makes it

or breaks it

[mok199]

1 hour ago, bandito said:

 

Well I live here for over 40 yrs.

In that time I have met a lot of Thais who spoke English fluently.

Included song-thaw drivers and tuk-tuk drivers who spoke, read and write English.

Also Thais who spoke passable English.

Daughter of my neighbor speaks read and write English fluently as do another neigbor of mine.

Many of them went to University and could'nt find a job so found another occupation.

Thai IT store where I shop the owner speaks good English.

You should go and talk more with bar girls.

 

let me try to explain ..re-read my post...groups of students .S.T.U.D.E.N.T.S....outside of school hours practicing English....thanks for your post...have a good day sir

[Buzzboy05]

BobbyL

• Senior Member
•  
• 
• Members
•  537
• 405 posts

• Report post
•  
•  
•  
•  #18

Posted 18 hours ago

It is a hard area. I taught children in the UK who obviously were native speakers, yet their knowledge of grammar and sentence structure was very poor. That held them back massively as there is such a focus on written work. 

 

I have taught kids here from different countries learning an English curriculum as an additional language who could also speak fluently, but similarly their grammar and sentences were poor. It held them back in their progress. 

 

I think the problem in Thailand with your average child is that there is too much emphasis is on rote learning of grammar and punctuation. It is tedious and boring, but it is mostly taught by Thai staff whose spoken English is also poor. Yet those same teachers could easily identify adjectives, pronouns and adverbs, but not string a coherent sentence together. They need to think about what is the most beneficial.  

 

As another poster said, he wasn't sure about all the grammatical intricacies of English, neither am I and I am a qualified teacher. It is far too complicated and madness to have young children learning about the future perfect tense, or the use of articles and determiners.

 

There needs to be far more focus on speaking and listening, but I don't know where to begin implementing that. 

 

• When I fist went to school  the alphabet till grade 4  had different sounds, which was to help  with reading ( Don / Betty  )  The ABC  came latter.

[PatOngo]

10 hours ago, chaingman said:

 

 

You retard

 

Opinions are like a$$holes, everyones got one!

[Poottrong]

It's a waste of time to encourage everyone in the country to learn English when only a tiny fraction will ever need to use it in their careers or even socially.

[scorecard]

10 hours ago, overherebc said:

Of course it require effort from both, but, in the vast majority of cases grammar seems to be the most important thing being taught.

I could learn all the rules for golf and probably pass a test on golf rules. If it was a 'tick A, B or C type exam,' probably score 100% ? but I stiil couldn't play golf.

 

Learn the rules of grammar and get A in the final grammar test.

 

Next step, apply for a job where the job ad says 'excellent English abilities are a must' or similar.

 

Had the incident many times in the international consulting company I worked for in Bkk, applicants CV not too bad, granted an interview, first interview with a Thai senior (and by this stage the candidate is well aware that all staff must often interact with clients in English and many times they will have to join a project in Singapore office etc., and interact with s.pore staff and client in English all day).

 

Now my interview first question 'What do you think about the current economics policies of Thailand?'

 

Obvious within a few seconds that the candidate has no idea what I'm talking about.

 

Various replies:

 

- Sit nicely and start talking like a robot 'My name is xxxx yyyyy, I was born in Bangkok on........., I graduated from kindergarten with a distinction...........

 

- Can you say it again and please with some Thai words.

 

- Can I use google spoken translate?

 

- I want to call my friend to come and help me, can I come back tomorrow.

 

I politely state 'you can't understand or speak english so sorry no job.

 

Response:

 

- But that's not fair I got A for English. I comment 'yes A for grammar, not A for comprehension or conversation'.

 

More comment 'but I can take my brother with me if I have to go to Singapore, he can speak better English'..

 

 

[Catoni]

17 hours ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

I always believed (because I was always told) that Chinese if the hardest language to learn, followed by English, though it's also true that Thais cannot achieve what the average 4-year-old in UK can achieve, which is an interesting observation (the same applies in reverse too, My Thai iasn't as fluent as the average pre-pubescent Thai and certainlky nowhere near my wife's level, though she insists all the kids in the family learn English).

 

I do believe though, that the opportunity for Chinese to be one of the top 2 languages has passed, better by far now to learn French (the international language of diplomacy), German or Italian. People intending to go live in the US of A (it won't be me...) should learn Engllish and Spanish - Chinese won't take root there for a very long time if at all.

 

The inadequacies of Thai learned over 12+ years, have meant that I rarely use Thai to communicate, if I encounter and must talk to a Thai who does not speak English, I prefer to explain in English what I want to say and ask my wife to say it, though she is often stumped at how to communicate more than very simple ideas in Thai. If my wife isn't there then I walk away and just have to manage without talking to the Thai. My loss? Probably. Their loss? Definitely.

 

Prayuth's whole idea that Thai could become a Lingua Franca of any sort is just more proof of his fundamental ignorance. He really ought to learn how to keep his mouth shut.

There are a few variations of “Chinese” ... Mandarin and Cantonese being but two. (I learned that by “rote” learning many years ago. There are some good things to say about “rote” learning. Being able to compose a sentence that shows some decent knowledge of correct English Grammar is another.)

   Which Chinese language are you talking about? 

[AntDee]

12 hours ago, Eligius said:

And don't forget the golden rule: NEVER ask a Thai shop assistant for information about anything.  They know nothing about any of the goods they sell. They are worse than useless. They will blithely tell you that they do not have a particular product in stock ('mai mee') - when there is a whole stash of that product piled up to the ceiling, right behind them!

They also lurk around you while you attempt to shop. They have an impressive ability to always be in your way, announcing the most basic and obvious info each time you touch or look at something. 

 

"Microwave kha. Have red color na kha. Discount 30%"

 

Like, no sh|t, I can see all that information. I've found the best way to handle them is to bombard several of them with a question you know they can't answer. They'll then scuttle away so you can shop. 

[petedk]

11 hours ago, overherebc said:

Of course it require effort from both, but, in the vast majority of cases grammar seems to be the most important thing being taught.

I could learn all the rules for golf and probably pass a test on golf rules. If it was a 'tick A, B or C type exam,' probably score 100% ? but I stiil couldn't play golf.

That is basically what I tell my students in the first lesson I give them.

[petedk]

21 hours ago, mok199 said:

i have lived here 20 years,and have never once (not one time) heard thais outside of a school setting ,speaking English in an attempt (in a safe enviorment of classmates) to better themselves. I have on numerous occasions asked '' why don't you and your freinds try "" the answer is always the same ,even their thai parents say '' shy''...in my opinion it is laziness and a lack of motivation..shy is the easy excuse

 

I have lived here for 20 years too and have met two students that used English outside the class.

 

One was a man of about 50. Actually he didn't study with me but came over to talk to me after class.

He told me that as a child he lived near Don Meuang airport and would often talk to foreigners on the way home from school. 

 

The other was a student in university. I heard her speaking English to her friends in the canteen and when I asked why she was speaking English, her friends said that she was crazy. Every day after going through the university gates she would only speak English. She also only spoke English to her mother (Thai lady). Needless to say this student spoke and wrote excellent English.

[newatthis]

12 hours ago, timkeen08 said:

Four of my Thai nieces frequently speak very good English to each other, their parents, and with some of their Thai friends who also speak English.  Many Thai youth speak decent English but are shy, are not comfortable, or have any use to speak English often enough.

 

The parents sent all four of their daughters to American high schools on one year exchange student programs.  They practice and help each other with their English quite a bit.  I have a lot of conversations with them in English when we do take trips to Bangkok, on facebook, or over the phone.

 

All have gone, or are going,  to university and have really good paying jobs.  The youngest is a third year medical student and proudly just received her white lab coat.  The oldest makes three million baht a year as, an English speaking only, administrator for a big foreign company in Bangkok.

 

All are required to speak in English at their jobs, or med school.  I have been asked to proofread a few reports and memorandums.   I also helped with a request letter for our med student towards a one month medical exchange program to China which she was awarded.  Very few spelling, wrong word, or grammatical errors were found.  But I did show them some tips on how to rearrange sentences or reword some words to look more professional with a focus on showing an understanding of English grammar.

 

Not all Thai people or parents are ignorant of the benefits of being proficient in the English language.

 

My wife is no longer shy when we meet English speaking foreigners and she is getting better and better.

Good for her! She'll make more money than the local lad whose English is limited to "f%$k off farang" as he zooms past on his motorbike [unless, of course, he stops using and starts selling].

My step-daughter refused to learn English even at Uni. She has a responsible job for an international company, but staff meetings are a pain. The Japanese management speak English and the other Thai staff are getting sick of translating for her. Could be her downfall soon!

 

[Eligius]

34 minutes ago, petedk said:

 

I have lived here for 20 years too and have met two students that used English outside the class.

 

One was a man of about 50. Actually he didn't study with me but came over to talk to me after class.

He told me that as a child he lived near Don Meuang airport and would often talk to foreigners on the way home from school. 

 

The other was a student in university. I heard her speaking English to her friends in the canteen and when I asked why she was speaking English, her friends said that she was crazy. Every day after going through the university gates she would only speak English. She also only spoke English to her mother (Thai lady). Needless to say this student spoke and wrote excellent English.

That female student you mention has the right idea. I know this is the right way - from experience. Decades ago, when I lived in Germany, I refused to speak English to anyone (even other English people): I would only speak German. 

In consequence, my German became really fluent. I even dreamed in German! If one is determined - one can learn a language well (but to my shame, I must confess that I find Thai much more difficult to speak and understand than French or German!).

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by Eligius

[Grusa]

It's not just English! Thai pilots learn everything by rote, with little or no understanding of the subjects. They sit multiple choice exams,having learned 2k answers to the possible 2k questions, some of which are completely wrong! No Thai student commercial pilot ever fails, it has cost so much to get there the loss of face would be unacceptable, so no matter how incompetent they get their licences. 

As for English, they are required to have "level 4" as a minimum. Very few are anywhere near that good, which is quite a low standard. Again, nobody fails!

Most aviation manuals etc are written in English. It takes longer to read an instruction than the time available to carry it out - if it is even understood.

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by Grusa
Text added

[timkeen08]

1 minute ago, newatthis said:

Good for her! She'll make more money than the local lad whose English is limited to "f%$k off farang" as he zooms past on his motorbike [unless, of course, he stops using and starts selling].

My step-daughter refused to learn English even at Uni. She has a responsible job for an international company, but staff meetings are a pain. The Japanese management speak English and the other Thai staff are getting sick of translating for her. Could be her downfall soon!

 

Thank you, she is only  in her 30s.   My niece makes more money than me annually with loads in the bank and she is quite successful with stocks as her mom and dad are.  I don't know who taught who but I have a good idea. She speaks as well as me with no Thai accent and thinks in English.  She sounds American.  A very intelligent woman and very very beautiful.  She is the quiet type even with her family she speaks mostly short English or Thai comments until something triggers her.  Then out comes the louder and quick Thai which shuts everyone up for any further conversation on the subject followed by quietness and faces looking down at their phones for a while.  I just give her a smile.  She winks and I go for a short walk, then everything is back to normal.  She is the Queen Bee in her family and it's not because of the money, they all make good money.  Four girls spending time in America and all through university, the parents always had money.  It's about respect.  She definately has my respect.

 

One on one we have sometimes have deep conversations hours on end.  She is very knowledgeable about different countries politics, economics, and their places in the world.  I can talk about anything with her, and also with my other nieces, especially my favorite subject, theoretical physics and the advancements in science etc...  She is definitely smarter and better informed than me.  They all never stop learning and all have very inquisitive minds.

 

They are my favorite Thai family.  The girls call me Tim when mom and dad, or adults, are not around, then it's Luung Tim or Mr. Tim.  We always had a great time when they were in America.  They really take good care of me in Thailand and are happy I chose to stay.

 

As I stated before, not all Thais are stupid and have no interest in learning.

[TKDfella]

18 hours ago, Lee4Life said:

Also why the Thai name "Blessing" is transliterated Porn...the "r" in the Thai Language is silent yet when they write the name in English they leave it in and by doing so make English speakers mispronounce it (unless they understand). There are many, many more examples along the same lines.

พร = Porn (as in 'corn') where the 'ร' acts as the vowel, international/Thai ministry of education BKK 1950 designation is ɔɔ, used in the American Students Text Book by Mary Haas 1964 (which I used and still use). However, the RTGS does not follow the this transliteration where 'ร' final is pronounced as '-on'. But there are problems with the widely used system as for example the Thai for 'hot', ร้อน. The Thai pronunciation of this is 'rawn' (as in straw) but the RTGS system is written as 'ron'. In addition, while the road and traffic ministry use RTGS the Thai rail network appears to use 'ร' as the vowel.

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by TKDfella

[timkeen08]

4 minutes ago, TKDfella said:

พร = Porn (as in 'corn') where the 'ร' acts as the vowel, international/Thai ministry of education BKK 1950 designation is ɔɔ, used in the American Students Text Book by Mary Haas 1964 (which I used and still use). However, the RTGS does not follow the this transliteration where 'ร' final is pronounced as '-on'. But there are problems with the widely used system as for example the Thai for 'hot', ร้อน. The Thai pronunciation of this is 'rorn' but the RTGS system is written as 'ron'. In addition, while the road and traffic ministry use RTGS the Thai rail network appears to use 'ร' as the vowel.

 

In my village many say either "rohn", "hohn", or "lohn".   Wherever I am in Thailand, I always respond with "crabp, rohn maak maak" like I was taught in Thai class at our Temple in Atlanta, a very strict teacher when it comes to pronunciation and tone.  It seems to always work well.  I usually get a thumbs up and a smile or "dee maak" regardless of which way they said it to me.  It makes no difference here.  They are just happy that I'm responding in their language.  Some do say to me "hot, wery wery hot".  I never correct them and they never ask.  I always respond to them back in Thai.  However, I have developed my own transliteration method that is simple and works well for me when trying to read, remember, or sound out Thai words.  It will make no sense to anyone else because they are stuck in one of the many transliteration methods already in use that seem inadequate to me.  I hope I will eventually read and speak Thai without the need of transliteration.  Most transliteration methods are phonetically insufficient and confusing since everyone uses a different one.  I just made my own and I don't have to remember it, no confusion.

[ponder]

I think that rote learning is useful, although it has its limitations. I taught myself Latin and Spanish when I was sixteen years old, and learning Latin gave me a great insight into how languages work, but of course, I never used it except for reading. With regard to Spanish, I studied the grammar and pronunciation of the language using books and tapes only (over a six-month period, with no teacher). Eventually, I went to Spain and found that I could neither speak nor understand the spoken language in a real-life setting; however, after six months I was speaking not just fluently but with excellent grammar and pronunciation, and on several occasions I was mistaken for a native speaker.

 

With regard to Thais being unable to speak English, I think this is not true. I went to Paris two years ago and found that almost nobody could speak English. I was forced to use my schoolboy French which I had not spoken for thirty years, but I made myself understood. I believe Spain is no better, and I recently went to Tokyo where English is spoken almost nowhere. In Thailand, certainly in Bangkok, you will always be able to communicate in English, even if the Thais' accent and grammar are not very good.

 

As for rote learning in other subjects, it has its place. How are you going to teach mathematics to someone who has to use a computer to find out what number comes after the sequence "1, 2, 3"? I think some rote learning is essential in the early stages of learning most subjects, but there comes a point where you have to start to break away from it and use higher-order thought processes. Education theorists often try to completely abandon some techniques and "revolutionise" learning, often neglecting very effective "old-fashioned"  methods. One thing that I have discovered for myself is that there is no single technique that suits everybody, so it is important for teachers to have a variety of different learning methods to offer in order to let their students find which ones suits them.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by ponder

[TKDfella]

22 minutes ago, timkeen08 said:

In my village many say either "rohn", "hohn", or "lohn".   Wherever I am in Thailand, I always respond with "crabp, rohn maak maak" like I was taught in Thai class at our Temple in Atlanta, a very strict teacher when it comes to pronunciation and tone.  It seems to always work well.  I usually get a thumbs up and a smile or "dee maak" regardless of which way they said it to me.  It makes no difference here.  They are just happy that I'm responding in their language.  Some do say to me "hot, wery wery hot".  I never correct them and they never ask.  I always respond to them back in Thai.  However, I have developed my own transliteration method that is simple and works well for me when trying to read, remember, or sound out Thai words.  It will make no sense to anyone else because they are stuck in one of the many transliteration methods already in use that seem inadequate to me.  I hope I will eventually read and speak Thai without the need of transliteration.  Most transliteration methods are phonetically insufficient and confusing since everyone uses a different one.  I just made my own and I don't have to remember it, no confusion.

Yes, the '...ohn' is used in some books. I have basically got past the transliteration in reading etc but then I have had a lot of exposure to different Thais.

Martial Arts has brought me into contact with both the rich, poor, educated and so on. The English conversation at the college showed me that very few used the RTGS system in pronunciation (never heard Udon, Nachon, ron  and the 'ร' mainly used as the vowel).