If you moan about Thai people maybe the problem rests with you

[xylophone]

26 minutes ago, Grusa said:

Remember that the gentlemen to whom you refer are products of the very education system to which I refer.......'nuff said!

Not sure about that...………..thought that the "leaders" (not just the one) would have had something better than the everyday lo-so education??

[Just Weird]

From the linked article..."Just remember next time you are having a moan about a Thai person that the problem could very well sit with you just as much as the person you are ranting about!"

 

That is proven to be the case every day as soon as the usual Thaivisa suspects hit their keyboards.

[NoshowJones]

10 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Yes they have!

Because education is not limited to what you learn in school.

Parents play an even bigger role...but what kind of education can uneducated parents provide?

Regarding road safety, how many driving schools have you seen in Thailand (the real thing with adapted vehicles and certified teachers)?

Personally, none!

And how do they get their licence? By driving at ultra low speed on a parking!

Yes, you make a lot of sense here.

[xylophone]

10 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Because education is not limited to what you learn in school.

Parents play an even bigger role...but what kind of education can uneducated parents provide?

A lot of sense in that, but another poster mentioned common sense, or lack of...…and with that I put in the inability to see and learn.

 

Now take the Thais driving the wrong way on a motorway/road; surely they don't have to be told it is wrong because it plainly is, and furthermore they will have seen accidents/deaths/gruesome injuries reported in the news/papers when Thais have done this...……..so what do they do, don't bother to take it in/learn from it at all.

 

Education will not help in this case, because you can't fix stupid.

 

 

 

 

[Hummin]

32 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Exactly!

Thai people are actually at the forefront of what awaits the other populations, especially the Western ones.

Dumbed down masses, educated by TV and fed with junk food, in order to serve a small elite.

 

As the rest of world, some even take the gun given them by government and travel half way around the globe to save the world (oil and other interests)

 

An example burning oil and gasolin in gig engines for fun, having tractor pulling for fun, Mc Donalds as breakfest, coca cola, have poor people to live without insurence, western world have its lack of empaty and willing to see what we do to the world as well. Im not only speaking about the Land of Free, but every single country that have been part of the ride, that makes us sit here in Thailand and tell how stupid other people is. We can do, because we do stupid things to, and are willing to conquer other countries to do so. Our religion allow us to do so, and have done since the beginning, and of course it is in our nature as well. 

 

Before we had regulations and seat belts, our traffic statistics was not especially good either, and before it was more drunk driving in the west as well, and we had no Buddha to take care of us, and we had better education system at the same time. 

[Hummin]

9 minutes ago, xylophone said:

A lot of sense in that, but another poster mentioned common sense, or lack of...…and with that I put in the inability to see and learn.

 

Now take the Thais driving the wrong way on a motorway/road; surely they don't have to be told it is wrong because it plainly is, and furthermore they will have seen accidents/deaths/gruesome injuries reported in the news/papers when Thais have done this...……..so what do they do, don't bother to take it in/learn from it at all.

 

Education will not help in this case, because you can't fix stupid.

 

 

 

 

It is just pure common sense! It is more dangerous to cross the road tvice. Ergo safer to drive against

[impulse]

3 hours ago, Hummin said:

So the scooters is the problem, not the car drivers that dont give a <deleted>? Not mentioned drugs or other stimulants that goes with it. If only scooters, it would not been that bad, but still, bad. 

 

And think about it, if those scooters was cars? 

 

Studies in the USA and Aus show that scooters are 20-40x as hazardous per mile as a 4 wheel vehicle.  In the USA, 4% of the vehicles are scooters.  In Thailand, it's closer to 75%.  If 71% more of the vehicles in the USA suddenly became 20-40x as dangerous, that would multiply the death rate by 71% x 20-40.  In other words there would be 14-28x as many traffic fatalities per km driven, just because of the change in the percentage of 2 vs 4 wheel vehicles and not related to any enforcement or skill changes. (The numbers aren't actually that simple, but the concept is)

 

Granted, enforcement is a huge problem in Thailand.  But even if they fix the enforcement and skills issues, the roads will still be crazy dangerous for scooter riders, who will continue to make up the majority of traffic until the economy puts them into cars instead of onto scooters.  

 

If those scooters were cars, they may still plow into each other with wild abandon.  But roofs, a lot of steel and seat belts would save 95% of them.

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by impulse

[Brunolem]

10 minutes ago, xylophone said:

A lot of sense in that, but another poster mentioned common sense, or lack of...…and with that I put in the inability to see and learn.

 

Now take the Thais driving the wrong way on a motorway/road; surely they don't have to be told it is wrong because it plainly is, and furthermore they will have seen accidents/deaths/gruesome injuries reported in the news/papers when Thais have done this...……..so what do they do, don't bother to take it in/learn from it at all.

 

Education will not help in this case, because you can't fix stupid.

 

 

 

 

Well...there is education, there is no education, and there is uneducation.

 

Uneducation is about filling up young brains with stupid ideas, wrong facts and so on: don't sleep under a tree because it will suck up all the oxygen and you will die!

 

We are born with at least some common sense, but it can be erased, providing the "right" uneducation.

 

I cannot imagine that the Thais are born different, so they are made like they are thanks to a very nasty and invisible system implemented by those who benefit from it.

[Justfine]

Just now, Brunolem said:

Well...there is education, there is no education, and there is uneducation.

 

Uneducation is about filling up young brains with stupid ideas, wrong facts and so on: don't sleep under a tree because it will suck up all the oxygen and you will die!

 

We are born with at least some common sense, but it can be erased, providing the "right" uneducation.

 

I cannot imagine that the Thais are born different, so they are made like they are thanks to a very nasty and invisible system implemented by those who benefit from it.

Babies don't have much common sense.

[CanuckThai]

TVisa is a pretty good coping mechanism.  The vast array of emotional and first hand experiences is priceless. 

 

Where else can a person comfortably vent , about a crazy situation involving their chosen county of residence (right or wrong) and family and friends (right or wrong) and their opinion of OTP craziness and unjust shenanigans.

 

We're a community.  Let the barkers bark, let the holier than thou be holy, let the town criers cry.   No different than whatever soi we lurk....smile and wave, have a laugh. stand your ground and fight when necessary.  A dozen yahoo's can't stomp ones head,  one can't be shot for flipping the bird.  Literally speaking of course....verbally, you're a walking dead man  ?

 

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by CanuckThai
penmanship

[Justfine]

4 minutes ago, CanuckThai said:

TVisa is a pretty good coping mechanism.  The vast array of emotional and first hand experiences is priceless. 

 

Where else can a person comfortably vent , about a crazy situation involving their chosen county of residence (right or wrong) and family and friends (right or wrong) and their opinion of OTP craziness and unjust shenanigans.

 

We're a community.  Let the barkers bark, let the holier than thou be holy, let the town criers cry.   No different than whatever soi we lurk....smile and wave, have a laugh. stand your ground and fight when necessary.  A dozen yahoo's can't stomp ones head,  one can't be shot for flipping the bird.  Literally speaking of course....verbally, you're a walking dead man  ?

 

 

It's interesting. People ranting about this and that. The people who pretend to be experts on gold/bitcoins provide good entertainment.

[Hummin]

15 minutes ago, Justfine said:

It's interesting. People ranting about this and that. The people who pretend to be experts on gold/bitcoins provide good entertainment.

Right ?

And who claim to know something about Bitcoins? 

[maximillian]

18 hours ago, upu2 said:

Is it a waste? If it gives you some pleasure and is hurting no one then why shouldnt you spend your money on anything you want to spend it on?

 

 

I spend half of my money on cars, bikes, booze and women, the other half I just wasted away...

 

[maximillian]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

 

Studies in the USA and Aus show that scooters are 20-40x as hazardous per mile as a 4 wheel vehicle.  In the USA, 4% of the vehicles are scooters.  In Thailand, it's closer to 75%.  If 71% more of the vehicles in the USA suddenly became 20-40x as dangerous, that would multiply the death rate by 71% x 20-40.  In other words there would be 14-28x as many traffic fatalities per km driven, just because of the change in the percentage of 2 vs 4 wheel vehicles and not related to any enforcement or skill changes. (The numbers aren't actually that simple, but the concept is)

 

Granted, enforcement is a huge problem in Thailand.  But even if they fix the enforcement and skills issues, the roads will still be crazy dangerous for scooter riders, who will continue to make up the majority of traffic until the economy puts them into cars instead of onto scooters.  

 

If those scooters were cars, they may still plow into each other with wild abandon.  But roofs, a lot of steel and seat belts would save 95% of them.

 

>>In the USA, 4% of the vehicles are scooters.<<

The 4 % are 125 cc scooters or real motorcycles up to 1800 cc with educated and licensed riders ?

Do you think US citizens would ride 4 on a bike, w/out helmets, w/out lights, faulty brakes, broken mirrors, minors w/out drivers licenses going to school by bike, while texting ?

>>...until the economy puts them into cars instead of onto scooters.<< 

OMG no !  In cities and villages streets and sois are too narrow for todays traffic already.

Imagine all the bikes would turn into pick-ups...

>>would save 95% of them.<<  =  naive and wishful thinking.

[Justfine]

Most motorbikes in the west are 250cc+. Very few scooters. Death rate is 40x higher cause they ride like idiots at high speed.

 

If you self drive defensively in Thailand then risk of death is very low. Not much difference to west. 

 

Scooters are high risk.

[Tchooptip]

8 hours ago, Justfine said:

Minority? Have you read this forum before? Lots of complaining. The happy people are the minority lol

I am afraid you are probably/maybe wrong because with a little attention one can understand the constant active moaners complaining about everything related to Thais people and Thailand,  are always the same, OK a few dozens maybe, when Thai visa has many thousands of members. At least hoping I'm not wrong  

[Justfine]

Just now, Tchooptip said:

I am afraid you are probably/maybe wrong because with a little attention one can understand the constant active moaners complaining about everything related to Thais people and Thailand,  are always the same, OK a few dozens maybe, when Thai visa has many thousands of members. At least hoping I'm not wrong  

Ok based on majority of posts not posters. Most farangs stay quiet.

[Tchooptip]

1 minute ago, Justfine said:

Ok based on majority of posts not posters. Most farangs stay quiet.

Right!  Not accepting " on a majority of posts" would be bad faith +

[impulse]

2 hours ago, maximillian said:

>>In the USA, 4% of the vehicles are scooters.<<

The 4 % are 125 cc scooters or real motorcycles up to 1800 cc with educated and licensed riders ?

Do you think US citizens would ride 4 on a bike, w/out helmets, w/out lights, faulty brakes, broken mirrors, minors w/out drivers licenses going to school by bike, while texting ?

>>...until the economy puts them into cars instead of onto scooters.<< 

OMG no !  In cities and villages streets and sois are too narrow for todays traffic already.

Imagine all the bikes would turn into pick-ups...

>>would save 95% of them.<<  =  naive and wishful thinking.

 

Where I'm from in Texas, it's affectionately referred to as a "scooter" or a "sled" if it has 2 wheels.  We have scooters with 5.8 liter V8 Chevy engines.

 

The second point is moot, since the studies were done in the USA and Aus, and reflect the 1800 CC bikers with brains.  Still, 20-40x as dangerous as riding in a 4 wheeled vehicle.  So if 71% of the vehicles on the road were to magically turn into scooters tomorrow, they'd have 14-28x as many fatalities (until the insurance companies put enough pressure on the government to ban them)  Which would put them way worse than the Thai fatality rate, but that seems to throw some TVF posters into a tizzy.

 

The super narrow sois are a result of the poor economy.  That's poor in the sense that the GDP per capita is about 1/10 that in the USA- not poor in the sense that it's not growing according to someone's plan.  It was like that in China when I moved in 18 years ago, and now all those dirt roads near the city have been replaced with nice, wide roads.   Amazing what some economic growth can mean to road safety.   It's not just about more cars.  It's also the money for roads to drive them on.

 

If a scooter is 20-40x as dangerous as a car, that means that 95-97.5% of the people who died on a scooter ride would have survived had they been in a car on the same ride.  It's not wishful thinking.  It's math.

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by impulse

[maximillian]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

 

Where I'm from in Texas, it's affectionately referred to as a "scooter" or a "sled" if it has 2 wheels.  We have scooters with 5.8 liter V8 Chevy engines.

 

The second point is moot, since the studies were done in the USA and Aus, and reflect the 1800 CC bikers with brains.  Still, 20-40x as dangerous as riding in a 4 wheeled vehicle.  So if 71% of the vehicles on the road were to magically turn into scooters tomorrow, they'd have 14-28x as many fatalities (until the insurance companies put enough pressure on the government to ban them)  Which would put them way worse than the Thai fatality rate, but that seems to throw some TVF posters into a tizzy.

 

The super narrow sois are a result of the poor economy.  That's poor in the sense that the GDP per capita is about 1/10 that in the USA- not poor in the sense that it's not growing according to someone's plan.  It was like that in China when I moved in 18 years ago, and now all those dirt roads near the city have been replaced with nice, wide roads.   Amazing what some economic growth can mean to road safety.   It's not just about more cars.  It's also the money for roads to drive them on.

 

If a scooter is 20-40x as dangerous as a car, that means that 95-97.5% of the people who died on a scooter ride would have survived had they been in a car on the same ride.  It's not wishful thinking.  It's math.

 

 

Wow, had I known you're from Texas I hadn't argued. (Never mess with a Texan. ? Well, I really wouldn't as Texans are the most pleasant people in the US, my experience anyway.) Matter of fact, your math has thrown me into a dizzy (not a tizzy) 'cause I had always been below average when it came to math.

Still I think you're comparing steakes with somtams. 

If, most scooters (!) in Thailand would be replaced by cars, I very much doubt that the number of road fatalities would go down.  Thailand as a whole would have to change drastically. (It has changed a lot since the approx. 45 years since I came to Thailand on a regular base).

GDP grows fast: Thais buy more and even more powerfull cars, streets get wider, they drive even faster, they'd buy bigger bikes too. Good for their ego, bad for other road users.

What has to change is their "me first, don't care" mentality plus policing and driving education.

BTW, I know Beijing since nearly 40 years, when there were 1.000 bicycles on one four-wheeled vehicle. Enjoyed it to ride the whole day on a bicycle. Hardly any traffic casualties then. Beijing really has changed tremendously. So has most of China.

Cheers Mr. Impulse, have a pleasant evening.

[RocketDog]

On 6/17/2018 at 9:19 PM, richard_smith237 said:

 

Thats fair enough if someone is moaning for the sake of moaning... but is that any different from expressing an opinion?

 

It seems we can express a positive opinion until someone accuses us of wearing 'rose tinted glasses'...

It seems we can't express a negative opinion without some suggesting 'if you don't like it go home'...

 

By 'default' it is human nature to develop an opinion on anything, we would be wooden, brainless, personality-less morons without the ability to develop any opinion.... but, it's where and how we express the opinion...  to find common ground or as with this forum sometimes - simply to vent.

 

If I have learned anything in Thailand its that Thai's too have very similar opinions of the issues we westerners also find irritating, negative or just downright wrong. Thus, I fail to recognize that a westerner having the same opinion and discussing it with his friends, many of whom would be Thai is in the wrong?

 

I suspect the real issue is the timing, location and audience we chose and how expressive we are.  BUT, the 'if you don't like it go home response' or as you put it 'get gone' is fundamentally flawed in that it suggests we as visitors have no rights to an opinion, no right to discuss our opinions with our friends (Thai or otherwise) and are not permitted to vent now and again... 

 

As an example, the suggestion ["If you are in a foreign country and moan about how it is done there, then you are by default wrong"] could also imply that we [foreigners / Westerners] are wrong if we discuss the dangerous driving in Thailand when in fact we are not wrong and most Thai's would be in agreement with any opinions we may develop on this subject. 

 

Of course, there are some who can never be pleased and it's these people upon whose shoulders this topic rests. But, these people are few and far between and it's unfair for someone who holds a valid opinion no matter how negative to be tarred with the same brush as the 'un-pleaseable-foreigner' or commonly referred to as the GOM (Grumpy old man - referencing an entertaining thread from a few years ago)

I agree with your basic premises regarding opinion. But who you express it to and how often you do so is the real point for me.

when it becomes a repetitive whining drone then it's time for one to consider swallowing it or leaving for the sake of one's own mental health.

[jonnodon]

I quite often moan whilst driving, though with the dark tint there may well be farang drivers doing the absolutely stupid things I see on the roads.

My biggest moan is that no matter how long I’m here I will always be considered the Customer.

As such I expect service equivalent to my patronage.

If I am paying, which I always seem to be then I bloody well want good service.

[ChakaKhan]

On 6/17/2018 at 8:54 PM, altcar bob said:

Basically I just walk away when it gets to the point of blank wall staring

The famous 1000 mile stare.....