U.S. Democrats, activists rally against Trump's family separation policy

[lannarebirth]

13 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Obama by Executive Order sought to give work permits to millions of illegals living in the US. In order to show his evenhandedness he was going to crack down even harder and deport any illegals seen as criminal. That opened the door for now labeling illegal border crossers as criminals.  All because the really difficult task of crafting law was circumvented. That's no way to run a government and it ALWAYS, ALWAYS leads to unimtended consequences.

 

 

I think that was in 2014-2015. It should also be mentioned that Obama attempted to overhaul the US Immigration system in 2009-2010 when he enjoyed control over both houses of Congress. Congress refused to go along with the overhaul plan, so the can got kicked down the road and ill conceived Executive Orders were implemented. Bad governance will always rear its head in time.

 

No, I am not forgiving the bad governance currently on display, but you asked for the roots of this fiasco.

[Credo]

I don't know where some of the crap that gets posted  comes from.   Obama was very hard on illegal immigration.   Deportations were very high, but people were given the full benefit of a lawful process including appeals prior to deportation.   

 

There was also some effort to try to sort out the 'bad hombres' from those who were living productively in the US and those who had significant family ties that would create a hardship on US citizens, such as minor children.   

 

I also don't know of any people, and I have a lot of very liberal friends, who are in favor of allowing people to enter illegally.    They do believe in a fair legal process to remove them, but not cruel and inhumane treatment.   

 

Illegal immigrants, for the most part, are not the enemy of the US.   They are people seeking work and a better life.   

[billd766]

13 hours ago, atyclb said:

 

 

valid points although i was referring to my grandparents.

 

just make california part of mexico and not the usa.

 

I understood the reference about your grandparents but my point was that well over 90% of all Americand are immigrants, many of the early settlers were also illegal. Even the Pilgrim Fathers back in 1620 were illegal immigrants.

 

 

[Radar501]

[billd766]

3 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

That's bullshit. Policy gives some lattitude as to how a law is enforced. If in exercising that lattitude the Executive branch either fails to enforce the spirit of the law or over reaches in fashion that makes enforcement something the law never intended, then a court injunction would appear so fast it would make your head spin.  Where's the court injunction, either from the previous policy to show leniency or the current policy to show none?  Where is it?

 

Being the President of the United States is a damn hard job if done right. You have to make horrible choices no one would wish to make, and you're going to be abused whichever thing you choose. That's the job description. If you coast in the job and want to be everyone's best frind then problems are going to build up that sooner or later create a worse situation than the one you refused to deal with.. Or you can be a draconian a-hole who doesn't see a problem that taking a hatchet to it wouldn't fix.  Neither is a good approach.

 

I've posted a ton of stuff here that shows that the current policy, bar separation is EXACTLY the same as we've had all along, and that deportations are in fact MUCH LESS than we had in the last presidency. This is all an exercise in deterrance and it is ugly as can be and corporations are feasting on it and no one has a clue what to do about it.

 

BUT nobody is forced to become POTUS.

 

It is purely a volunteer post.

[mtls2005]

Shades of the CIA's rendition program. Need to get CIA Director Gina Haspel on the blower to advise on destroying all the evidence.

 

Must take a very special type of person to be an ICE agent? Ve vere just following orders.

 

Flight attendant: I won't work flights that separate immigrant kids from families

 

For the past 29 years I have been a flight attendant for a major U.S. airline. Several weeks ago, I worked two flights (one to San Antonio and the other to McAllen) which proved to be two of the most disturbing flights I've ever experienced in my career.

On board these particular flights were ICE agents and migrant children (approximately four to eleven years old) who had been separated from their families and were being flown to a "relocation" site.

 

Since working the two flights, the images of those helpless children have burned into my psyche. The little children whose faces were full of fear, confusion, sadness and exhaustion left me somewhat traumatized as it occurred to me a few weeks later that I might as well have been a collaborator in their transport.

 

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/gray-matters/article/Flight-attendant-I-won-t-work-flights-that-13008372.php

[atyclb]

6 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I understood the reference about your grandparents but my point was that well over 90% of all Americand are immigrants, many of the early settlers were also illegal. Even the Pilgrim Fathers back in 1620 were illegal immigrants.

 

 

  yes but things have changed. back then there was much less government, no income tax, no social security, no welfare or food stamps. one country cannot support everyone in the world looking for a better life, that is not politics, that is reality.

[Andaman Al]

6 minutes ago, atyclb said:

  yes but things have changed. back then there was much less government, no income tax, no social security, no welfare or food stamps. one country cannot support everyone in the world looking for a better life, that is not politics, that is reality.

But this is your false economy. The people wanting to come in are the people who work. The people on welfare and food stamps are the redneck huckerbilly white folk Trump supporters. The reason they don't want immigrants is they fear their food stamps and social security payments will go to others. Immigrants work! Just like your great grandfathers generation did. They pay taxes, they are industrious. The lazy ba*****s are the ones that feel a sense of entitlement and privilege -white trailer trash Trump supporters.

 

You won't make America great again without immigrants..........lots of them.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Andaman Al

[Jingthing]

There are non-racist reasons to transition to an immigration policy that has more emphasis on higher level skills. Obviously not exclusively, there should always be room for eager young people, legitimate refugees, and family reunions, but an adjusted balance.  While low level skill jobs like fruit picking are not something many citizens are EVER going to want to do, automation will be eliminating more and more lower skill jobs like cashier, clerk, customer service, drivers, factory workers, and many more. More advanced nations are even looking into a base minimum income because of this trend. So the USA to keep competitive should consider rational reforms in immigration policies that aren't loaded with toxic racism and xenophobia. But sadly, with such a divisive race baiting president as "trump" such an important beneficial national debate that leads to productive humane long term results can't really even begin to happen.

The USA will be made much LESS great because of this almost total dysfunction. 

I see little hope in this.

It seems clear to me that the USA is in rapid decline and not because of brown immigrant babes.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Jingthing

[Chomper Higgot]

10 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

 

I think that was in 2014-2015. It should also be mentioned that Obama attempted to overhaul the US Immigration system in 2009-2010 when he enjoyed control over both houses of Congress. Congress refused to go along with the overhaul plan, so the can got kicked down the road and ill conceived Executive Orders were implemented. Bad governance will always rear its head in time.

 

No, I am not forgiving the bad governance currently on display, but you asked for the roots of this fiasco.

Again trying to lay the blame elsewhere.

 

I give you full marks for tenacity but it was Trump who ordered the policy to cage children and the roots of that policy lie in demonizing immigrants.

 

Forcibly separating children from their parents then caging them in concentration camps - get it through your head - IT WAS TRUMP!

[atyclb]

36 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

I assume by "native" the study group mean the indigenous North American Indian? (I didn't know that the first group of illegal immigrants left that many alive) Is that what they mean? I cannot imagine for a minute that they include you or for that matter Trump as a "native".

 

If the immigrants were paid a minimum of the minimum wage they would not be on welfare programs. If you are paid less than the minimum wage and are therefore ENTITLED to welfare then you would be an imbecile not to take it.

 

its hard to believe you actually read the study and think native means american indian.  agree with you regarding welfare since i never been on it or collected food stamps.

 

try to read the study again and report back to us please.

[Andaman Al]

31 minutes ago, atyclb said:

 

its hard to believe you actually read the study and think native means american indian.  agree with you regarding welfare since i never been on it or collected food stamps.

 

try to read the study again and report back to us please.

 

It is hard to believe you have actually said that.

 

Of course I know that the plebeians that wrote the report think that they are in fact natives but the FACT is they and you are not. When you live in a country whos history is so young you can all trace back your family tree to who the first members of your family were that set foot in the America's you are NOT native, you are immigrants. When you all proudly state "oh my family is Irish, Scottish, German or Martian or whatever else", you are immigrants. Your descendants in a thousand years can claim to be native, until then you all seem to be forgetting your roots, your recently planted roots, of immigration (expedited by genocide and slaughter of the local people and the theft of their lands). Get over yourselves and start showing some humanity.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Andaman Al

[atyclb]

21 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

44 minutes ago, atyclb said:

its hard to believe you actually read the study and think native means american indian.  agree with you regarding welfare since i never been on it or collected food stamps.

 

try to read the study again and report back to us please.

 

It is hard to believe you have actually said that.

 

Of course I know that the plebeians that wrote the report think that they are in fact natives but the FACT is they and you are not. When you live in a country whos history is so young you can all trace back your family tree to who the first members of your family were that set foot in the America's you are NOT native, you are immigrants. When you all proudly state "oh my family is Irish, Scottish, German or Martian or whatever else", you are immigrants. Your descendants in a thousand years can claim to be native, until then you all seem to be forgetting your roots, your recently planted roots, of immigration (expedited by genocide and slaughter of the local people and the theft of their lands). Get over yourselves and start showing some humanity.

 

 

the study defined natives as those born in america.  it does not reflect historically, socially, or philosophically on the indigenous people history of getting screwed. many know the story about the indians and i agree they were screwed. the study is not about hyperboles or absolute ancestry.

 

as this topic is about the trump family separation policy have a gander at the below commentator who by the way disagrees with much of trump

 

 

[lannarebirth]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Again trying to lay the blame elsewhere.

 

I give you full marks for tenacity but it was Trump who ordered the policy to cage children and the roots of that policy lie in demonizing immigrants.

 

Forcibly separating children from their parents then caging them in concentration camps - get it through your head - IT WAS TRUMP!

 

You asked:

 

 

Quote

 

  15 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

So which party created the current policy and which party implemented the current policy?

 

 

The party that implemented the criminalization of illegal border crossings was Obama's. The party that whose policy it was to separate families based on thae criminalization of border crossings was Trump's.  You're just parsing my posts.

[Scott]

A post in violation of Fair Use Policy has been removed.   Using highly biased sources with misleading information will not be permitted.   

 

The number of people who use a program is very different than the actual amount of money or services expended on them.   Nearly all refugees, are signed up for certain services which are administered by the states but provided for by the federal gov't.   These services are very time limited.   

[mtls2005]

Just to be very, very, very clear... Donald J. Trump is currently president.

 

And the GOP holds majorities in both Congress and the Senate.

 

Seems like they could "fix" just about anything, right?

 

People should stop whining about who did what ages ago. Or if you want to whine, start a new thread.

 

 

 

It is interesting the DHS and HHS and CPB and ICE all seem unwilling to allow the press to access these detention facilities. I wonder what their reasoning for this secrecy is?

 

At least some photos leaked out at Abu Ghraib.

 

 

[Scott]

The press is often denied access to facilities like this for a variety of reasons, including security.   In the facilities with children, it is a matter of privacy.  

 

It doesn't mean that they can't, but they must be closely monitored and controlled to make sure private information isn't revealed.

 

 

[mtls2005]

8 hours ago, Scott said:

The press is often denied access to facilities like this for a variety of reasons, including security.   In the facilities with children, it is a matter of privacy.  

 

I guess I'd like to understand how these "variety of reasons", "Security" and "Privacy" concerns outweigh other concerns:

 

 - the public is paying for these facilities

 - these children have no impartial advocacy

 - I'm led to believe that they are not U.S. citizens so a "right" to Privacy is questionable

 

Press coverage of these facilities and the children might even help identify them so they can be reunited.

 

Sheesh, we put pictures of kids on milk cartons for goodness sakes.

 

If you object to the "press" touring these facilities - which evidently was allowed during the First Lady's visit - then at least allow recognized advocates (legal, church, volunteer) access.

 

 

I suspect the blackout on access is due to the fact that the images would further inflame the entire country. Hence they move these kids around the country under cover of darkness, and lie to airlines that they are "part of a soccer team".

 

We're told these facilities are like "home" and "summer camp", so why not show them off?

 

 

In other news related to the topic...

 

 

Protesters Play Audio of Immigrant Kids Crying Outside Kirstjen Nielsen’s Home

 

Days after a group of protesters successfully heckled Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen out of a Mexican restaurant (over her support of President Donald Trump’s brutal family-separation policy), the Department of Homeland Security head was greeted on Thursday by protesters at a different, more familiar location: her home.

 

As HuffPost reports, a group of protesters holding signs gathered around the Alexandria, Virginia, residence of Nielsen. Standing on her street, they played audio recording of detained immigrant children crying out for their parents at a U.S. Customs and Border Protection Facility. The recording was first published earlier this week by ProPublica, who received the audio from a whistleblower.

 

https://www.thecut.com/2018/06/kirstjen-nielsen-home-protest-immigrant-kids-audio.html

 

 

 

[Scott]

8 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

 

I guess I'd like to understand how these "variety of reasons", "Security" and "Privacy" concerns outweigh other concerns:

 

 - the public is paying for these facilities

 - these children have no impartial advocacy

 - I'm led to believe that they are not U.S. citizens so a "right" to Privacy is questionable

 

Press coverage of these facilities and the children might even help identify them so they can be reunited.

 

Sheesh, we put pictures of kids on milk cartons for goodness sakes.

 

If you object to the "press" touring these facilities - which evidently was allowed during the First Lady's visit - then at least allow recognized advocates (legal, church, volunteer) access.

 

 

I suspect the blackout on access is due to the fact that the images would further inflame the entire country. Hence they move these kids around the country under cover of darkness, and lie to airlines that they are "part of a soccer team".

 

We're told these facilities are like "home" and "summer camp", so why not show them off?

 

 

In other news related to the topic...

 

 

Protesters Play Audio of Immigrant Kids Crying Outside Kirstjen Nielsen’s Home

 

Days after a group of protesters successfully heckled Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen out of a Mexican restaurant (over her support of President Donald Trump’s brutal family-separation policy), the Department of Homeland Security head was greeted on Thursday by protesters at a different, more familiar location: her home.

 

As HuffPost reports, a group of protesters holding signs gathered around the Alexandria, Virginia, residence of Nielsen. Standing on her street, they played audio recording of detained immigrant children crying out for their parents at a U.S. Customs and Border Protection Facility. The recording was first published earlier this week by ProPublica, who received the audio from a whistleblower.

 

https://www.thecut.com/2018/06/kirstjen-nielsen-home-protest-immigrant-kids-audio.html

 

 

 

I am not trying to justify the policy, just explain it.   

 

If you see pictures of child care centers, it is extremely rare for them to show pictures of the children in residence.   To do so, permission has to be obtained from parents or legal guardians.  

 

Photos are often not permitted in any type of prison, jail or detention facility.   When they are permitted, it is with express permission of the facility and under strict supervision.  

 

In my work in refugee camps in several different countries, pictures were strictly prohibited and anyone even sneaking photos out could get into serious trouble.  

 

All I can say is that it is very emotionally traumatic for children to be removed from their parents, regardless of how a facility looks.   I once saw a young child who got separated from his parents at Disneyland and in spite of it being such a fantastic place, he was not a happy camper.

 

[mtls2005]

9 minutes ago, Scott said:

I am not trying to justify the policy, just explain it.   

 

Again, I would like to see the "policy", unless that too needs to be kept secret. Then there would be no need for you to explain it.

 

We're not talking about daycare centers, refugee camps in "several different countries" or Disneyland, in case that wasn't obvious. We're talking about Texas.

 

 

[dcutman]

June of 2018 Texas. Pretty sure at this border processing facility, is a far cry from a Nazi concentration camp.

And here is another in 2014 in Arizona. Looks pretty much the same, No gas chambers or Nazis standing over children with machine guns as some posters here would like you to think.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

10 hours ago, Scott said:

The press is often denied access to facilities like this for a variety of reasons, including security.   In the facilities with children, it is a matter of privacy.  

 

It doesn't mean that they can't, but they must be closely monitored and controlled to make sure private information isn't revealed.

 

 

Correct.

 

But given the intense public interest in this issue the government are failing to provide media access (with the necessary close monitoring).

 

The government can easily provide access, its a choice.

 

They either make that choice or it will of course come down to a court battle on First Amendment rights.

 

The government can’t win this, they need to provide transparency before they are forced to provide it.

Edited June 23, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[Chomper Higgot]

Avenatti has now stepped into the fray with his announcement his firm is now representing members of ICE who wish to expose what’s going on.

 

This gives us a hint of what ought to have been obvious from the start.

 

The policy of forcibly separating children from their parents and caging them in concentration camps is viciously cruel.

 

The members of ICE having to enact this see and feel it first hand, many will hate having to do this.

 

Some will stand up and speak out.

 

The truth will (despite Trump’s best efforts) out!

[Chomper Higgot]

17 minutes ago, dcutman said:

June of 2018 Texas. Pretty sure at this border processing facility, is a far cry from a Nazi concentration camp.

And here is another in 2014 in Arizona. Looks pretty much the same, No gas chambers or Nazis standing over children with machine guns as some posters here would like you to think.

 

You mentioned Nazis

You mentioned gas chambers

You mentioned machine guns

 

You then tell us this is what others want us to think.

[mtls2005]

Agreed, only the defenders, like Jeff Sessions, seem compelled to bring up the fact that what we're doing isn't as bad as what the Nazis did. Unless you're Jake Blues it's best not to bring up "the Nazis".

 

And one video from the June 2018 is hardly "transparency".

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

It ought to raise a few doubts in the mind of even the most ardent Trump supporter when your defense is ‘he’s not being as bad as the Nazis’.

 

 

 

[riclag]

On 6/20/2018 at 7:42 PM, pedro01 said:

 

I think it's absolutely fine.

 

When criminals go to jail, it is normal for their kids to go into care if there's no family member to take care of them. Where's the outrage there?

 

People make a conscious decision to cross the border illegally. If you don't separate them, what do you do? Allow a child to be a free passport into the USA? 

 

If so - you really do need to think through the consequences of that happening because it's a damn sight worse than the kids being in care.

You just know independents see right through this bitter, deranged, bias hatred for PT from the left and rino's.Where was the outrage in prior Administrations. Estimated 12M illegals in America!

[Ron19]

A troll post and answers to it have been removed.

[Scott]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Correct.

 

But given the intense public interest in this issue the government are failing to provide media access (with the necessary close monitoring).

 

The government can easily provide access, its a choice.

 

They either make that choice or it will of course come down to a court battle on First Amendment rights.

 

The government can’t win this, they need to provide transparency before they are forced to provide it.

Again, I am only answer a question about why.   Please note that what we do see is mostly the back of the heads.   No face shots.

 

It is covered by numerous laws concerning individual privacy, especially applicable if it is children involved.

 

The gov't can provide access.   Members can speculate as to why they aren't, but I think a more pertinent question might be about children being placed in an unlicensed facility.   Laws surrounding the detention of minors, or placement are pretty strict.   Facilities are licensed by the states.  

 

 

[lannarebirth]

2 hours ago, Scott said:

I am not trying to justify the policy, just explain it.   

 

If you see pictures of child care centers, it is extremely rare for them to show pictures of the children in residence.   To do so, permission has to be obtained from parents or legal guardians.  

 

Photos are often not permitted in any type of prison, jail or detention facility.   When they are permitted, it is with express permission of the facility and under strict supervision.  

 

In my work in refugee camps in several different countries, pictures were strictly prohibited and anyone even sneaking photos out could get into serious trouble.  

 

All I can say is that it is very emotionally traumatic for children to be removed from their parents, regardless of how a facility looks.   I once saw a young child who got separated from his parents at Disneyland and in spite of it being such a fantastic place, he was not a happy camper.

 

 

Correct. I own a rather large daycare center in the US. Privacy and child protection is priority one. Closed circuit cameras are everywhere to guard against any untoward activity. Even parents, whom we know on sight and see everyday must sign in and out and any visitors are often not granted access unless specific instructions are on file.