Polls point to strong backing among Thais for death penalty

[lvr181]

5 minutes ago, Robbess said:

Don’t conflate criminals with those accused by the State. Numerous people on death row have been recused with DNA evidence after decades in a cage. 

Ummm............where was my conflation? I seem to have missed that.

[KiwiKiwi]

44 minutes ago, vogie said:

This is the most up to date graph I could find, it's dated 2014, but either way I suspect it will still be pretty close.

 

 

Also from 2014:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32061822

 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, KiwiKiwi said:

Also from 2014:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32061822

 

Yes it depends who poll you believe at the time, either way nobody can deny they are very close and I wouldn't like to put money on who was correct, it is that close. Suffice to say the BBC is so left wing these days, if they said it was raining I would have to open the door to see for myself.

[The Deerhunter]

No surprises there.  Thais are much entertained by bloodshed.  Look at the pictures published on TV and daily papers, without even considering the content of soap operas or some of the Hindu statues sold in temple shops here with a blue woman with a belt full of blood dripping male heads.   Bring your kids up with stuff like that and what do you expect?  The same I guess goes with the Koran and the old testament of the Christian & Jewish bibles.  I have see only excerpts from the Koran but the Old Testament is just one horror story after another.

I was at a funeral in a local Buddhist temple last night and there was an entire series of paintings around the roof on one side, depicting "life" in hell.  They made the third panel of  Hieronymus Bosch's  "Garden of Earthly Delights" look like a kindergarten picture book.   Most Thais are definitely not shocked by death or blood.

[connda]

It's not a deterrent and never will be.  Once that hot-coal that is at the heart of virtually every Thai I've met is suddenly no longer contained by the thin veneer of jai yen control that Thais pride themselves as having, then it goes into white-hot critical mass in a micro-second and the only thoughts are no longer 'thoughts about deterrents and consequences' but blind rage that seeks to destroy what is in it's path.  It's not until after that rage subsides that suddenly there is any thought about consequences.  (Apologies, Wai, Crying, Excuses)
Go to a place like Korat where there are monuments a knife-wielding Thais celebrating the effects of savagery as man is pitted against fellow man. What those monuments represent is always lurking just below the conscious level of Thai civility.  And 'reality TV' and Lakhon doesn't help but instead simply provides a structure and viable plot showing that this  aberrant behavior is common, if not accepted, in Thai culture. 
And 'Compassion?'  Compassionate Buddhists?  Outside of Forest Monasteries that are slowly disappearing, there isn't a lot of compassion left, Buddhist or otherwise. 

Edited June 21, 2018 by connda

[KiwiKiwi]

10 minutes ago, connda said:

It's not a deterrent and never will be.  Once that hot-coal that is at the heart of virtually every Thai I've met is suddenly no longer contained by the thin veneer of jai yen control that Thais pride themselves as having, then it goes into white-hot critical mass in a micro-second and the only thoughts are no longer 'thoughts about deterrents and consequences' but blind rage that seeks to destroy what is in it's path.  It's not until after that rage subsides that suddenly there is any thought about consequences.  (Apologies, Wai, Crying, Excuses)
Go to a place like Korat where there are monuments a knife-wielding Thais celebrating the effects of savagery as man is pitted against fellow man. What those monuments represent is always lurking just below the conscious level of Thai civility.  And 'reality TV' and Lakhon doesn't help but instead simply provides a structure and viable plot showing that this  aberrant behavior is common, if not accepted, in Thai culture. 
And 'Compassion?'  Compassionate Buddhists?  Outside of Forest Monasteries that are slowly disappearing, there isn't a lot of compassion left, Buddhist or otherwise. 

 

Excellent and very perceptive post. Thanks.

[The Deerhunter]

4 minutes ago, connda said:

It's not a deterrent and never will be.  Once that hot-coal that is at the heart of virtually every Thai I've met is suddenly no longer contained by the thin veneer of jai yen control that Thais pride themselves as having, then it goes into white-hot critical mass in a micro-second and the only thoughts are no longer 'thoughts about deterrents and consequences' but blind rage that seeks to destroy what is in it's path.  It's not until after that rage subsides that suddenly there is any thought about consequences.  (Apologies, Wai, Crying, Excuses)
Go to a place like Korat where there are monuments a knife-wielding Thais celebrating the effects of savagery as man is pitted against fellow man. What those monuments represent is always lurking just below the conscious level of Thai civility.  And 'reality TV' and Lakhon doesn't help but instead simply provides a structure and viable plot showing that this  aberrant behavior is common, if not accepted, in Thai culture. 
And 'Compassion?'  Compassionate Buddhists?  Outside of Forest Monasteries that are slowly disappearing, there isn't a lot of compassion left, Buddhist or otherwise. 

Yes;  blind rage in the impetuous many Thias and a smug "I'm too smart/important/handsome/beautiful/fashionable/connected....   to be arrested in many others.  For one reason or the other they never contemplate the consequences of these appalling acts of violence.  It is this immature child part of the personality that is culturally encouraged here.  It is not natural in humans.  This is the part we see here so much more often than we see at "back home"  and which does not include the concepts of accepting responsibility or understanding consequences.  

Many, but not all dogs and cats can exhibit embarrassment and guilt for actions.  Also, many but not all humans.

[The Deerhunter]

5 hours ago, bluesofa said:

I have trouble following the results of this poll, seeing as the majority of the population claim to be Buddhists. One of the five Precepts is to refrain from killing.

Or is it acceptable as long as someone else is doing it to support your opinion, as long as it's not you personally doing the killing?

 

You are quite correct.  My family are devout Buddhists and eat meat.  This is OK because the bad karma of killing the animals is not falling on this family.  It falls onto the families of the abattoir and primary butchers.  Hypocrisy?  I guess some of us think so.  But I am an old deer hunter and I still do not at all fear karma from my hunting exploits.  

[rudi49jr]

I remember there was a poll in Germany (or West-Germany, at the time) in the 1950's about the same thing, and it showed that more than 70% of the people were in favor of the death penalty. Yet the then German government had the balls and foresight to abolish it. And the thing is: some 20 years later, popular support for the death penalty had fallen to about 40%.

[lvr181]

2 hours ago, DM07 said:

The usually well- informed Thai- populace presents us with yet another, well worked out poll.

 

Just a few points:

- it is a myth, that it will cost the tax- payer less to execute a person, than keeping them in prison for life.

- some countries (or states) have capital- punishment for decades. If it really keeps anyone from committing a crime, you would think, the violent crime -statistics would be close to zero, by now! Well...spoiler-alert: they are not! In fact, often the rate in violent crime is much higher than in states (or countries) without the death- penalty!

- 4 out of 100 criminals, who got handed out a death- sentence in the USA, proved to be innocent. With some of them, it showed after they were executed! 4 is too many! 1 is too many! If you execute an innocent person, you are a murderer! Period!

- in a super-flawed justice system like Thailand (one law for the rich, another for the poor/ totally corrupt police/ totally corrupt judges/ totally backwards laws etc), capital punishment is even worse!

 

 

And your viable alternative is? 

[DM07]

1 minute ago, lvr181 said:

And your viable alternative is? 

First of all: I am discussing a subject- I don't need to present a solution for every of the world's problems.

Secondly: alternative to what? To Thailand, having a corrupt and super- flawed justice system?

I think all other alternatives are kind of self-explanatory.

Most of all: no death- penalty as part of any justice- system!

Or did I misunderstand your question?

[Megasin1]

Personally I think its quite an amazing coincidence that what seems to be a popular opinion has been enacted on in the run up to a seemingly unpopular ex-general as he is about to be elected as the new PM under the revised democratic system. There will possibly be more of these 'popular' policies preying on the 90% plus of the voting public as we get ever nearer to the promised land.

[lvr181]

3 minutes ago, DM07 said:

First of all: I am discussing a subject- I don't need to present a solution for every of the world's problems.

Secondly: alternative to what? To Thailand, having a corrupt and super- flawed justice system?

I think all other alternatives are kind of self-explanatory.

Most of all: no death- penalty as part of any justice- system!

Or did I misunderstand your question?

What is "sentencing for"? Punishment of a criminal activity?

 

If ongoing soft punishments do not work (for e.g. recidivists) then you need a deterrent.

 

I would think that the vast majority of 'murderers' are not recidivists (but there have been some mass murders happen) and being that murder is a capital crime in a largely civilized society, how do you deter people from this crime? Not by "soft" sentencing! There needs to be a deterrent in place - if it's not to be death penalty, what is it to be? Don't replace, what may be consider  'not good' option without another sentence being put in place. Sure, the death of an wrongful person is terrible but if the 'deterrent' effect has saved many other victims then isn't this worth it? Nothing is perfect, there will always be a price to pay, one way or another. Which way to you want?

 

Hope that answers your final question.

[MaxLee]

Life is too cheap in the land of smiles. Always take the easy way out, case closed,...... Buffoons

[DM07]

2 minutes ago, lvr181 said:

What is "sentencing for"? Punishment of a criminal activity?

 

If ongoing soft punishments do not work (for e.g. recidivists) then you need a deterrent.

 

I would think that the vast majority of 'murderers' are not recidivists (but there have been some mass murders happen) and being that murder is a capital crime in a largely civilized society, how do you deter people from this crime? Not by "soft" sentencing! There needs to be a deterrent in place - if it's not to be death penalty, what is it to be? Don't replace, what may be consider  'not good' option without another sentence being put in place. Sure, the death of an wrongful person is terrible but if the 'deterrent' effect has saved many other victims then isn't this worth it? Nothing is perfect, there will always be a price to pay, one way or another. Which way to you want?

 

Hope that answers your final question.

Capital punishment doesn't work as a "deterrent"- it never has.

Other people -on this and similar threads- have dug out a bunch of statistics, that show the exact opposite!

If states (in the US) or countries have handed out death penalties for decades, you would see a lower rate in crimes, punishable bey death, than in other states or countries.

That's a no- brainer!

But the opposite is the case!

And that is only one point against the death- penalty.

 

 

[lvr181]

3 minutes ago, DM07 said:

Capital punishment doesn't work as a "deterrent"- it never has.

Other people -on this and similar threads- have dug out a bunch of statistics, that show the exact opposite!

If states (in the US) or countries have handed out death penalties for decades, you would see a lower rate in crimes, punishable bey death, than in other states or countries.

That's a no- brainer!

But the opposite is the case!

And that is only one point against the death- penalty.

 

 

See my post #60 (Page 4) -  a "possible" alternative.

Edited June 21, 2018 by lvr181
Additional wording

[DM07]

3 minutes ago, lvr181 said:

See my post #60 (Page 4) -  a "possible" alternative.

I would go with that, anytime!

A life-sentence without parole and hard (yet...please...humane) work, at least gives you the chance to "right a wrong", in a case of false conviction.

A death sentence, doesn't!

[Robbess]

3 hours ago, lvr181 said:

Nevertheless, some people by their horrendous crimes have forfeited their "rights" to freely live among us.

 

If capital punishment is not considered to be the option then those convicted should be given a life sentence (until the end of their days, hard labour - no parole) and their only 'rights' are a roof over their heads, food and medicine NOTHING else!

Killing? Horrendous crimes? How about starting a war based on lies? Let me tell you how it works:

Kill one person and you’re a murderer.

Kill ten people and your a monster.

Kill two hundred thousand and you’re a great statesman.

Kill two million and you’re a business opportunity.

 

life isn’t fair, and nobody said it was. Most of the worst criminals are wearing suits.

[lvr181]

28 minutes ago, Robbess said:

life isn’t fair, and nobody said it was. Most of the worst criminals are wearing suits.

The politicians you voted for?

[lvr181]

1 hour ago, DM07 said:

I would go with that, anytime!

A life-sentence without parole and hard (yet...please...humane) work, at least gives you the chance to "right a wrong", in a case of false conviction.

A death sentence, doesn't!

Thank you.

Not aimed at you, but people do need to discuss and think about possible solutions to 'problems' if we are to advance, hopefully, in a better way forward.

 

IMHO the kingdom does seem to lack people in power, with high order critical thinking.  

 

(And this is a forum about Thailand - NOT other countries). 

[KiwiKiwi]

4 hours ago, lvr181 said:

Not as effective as it could/should be.

 

But more abhorrent are those, all too often, who have more sympathy for the criminal than the victims! 

 

What a load of BS, a twisted statement to add weight to your own argument for brutality becausde it cannot stand on it's own. More sympathy for the criminal than the victim. Point to anywhere where that is stated.

 

Complete nonsense, and not even bright complete nonsense. The sort of BS argument a Thai would make.

 

 

[Robbess]

1 hour ago, lvr181 said:

The politicians you voted for?

If you vote, you have no right to complain.

[Titan1962]

Everyone has their own opion,that’s what the poll was for. I personally agree with the death penalty for heinous crimes and repeat offenders of child rape and murder. If that had been my son,wife or daughter killed and the person was found guilty beyond reasonable doubt,I would have gladly pushed the button. It may not be a deterrent or stop the crimes 100% in the future,but at least that’s one more that won’t repeat the same crime again. 

Like I said everyone has their own opion,but hopefully you never have to deal with the life pain these crimes cause. Especially if the perpetrator isn’t caught,hopefully the parents of the young man killed for a mobile ph!!!!! get some peace at last.

[ncc1701d]

The purpose of laws is not to act as a deterrent.

 

A killer is in custody. 

If there weren't any laws against shooting people, we couldn't prosecute him. We'd have to let him go. 

 

Laws don't stop crime and never have. 

 

We have laws regarding murder, theft, rape, fraud, etc. 

And yet, we still have murder, theft, rape, fraud, etc. 

 

Laws don't stop crime. It would be nice if they did, but that's not the law's function. 

 

Laws give society legal recourse when its members engage in anti-social actions. If you didn't have law against murder, you couldn't do anything (legally) about it when murders happen.

 

Every country has a right to determine what recourse the is for any given crime.

[lvr181]

2 hours ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

What a load of BS, a twisted statement to add weight to your own argument for brutality becausde it cannot stand on it's own. More sympathy for the criminal than the victim. Point to anywhere where that is stated.

 

Complete nonsense, and not even bright complete nonsense. The sort of BS argument a Thai would make.

 

 

Try and keep up with the play. Read #60 - Page 4.

[KiwiKiwi]

1 minute ago, lvr181 said:

Try and keep up with the play. Read #60 - Page 4.

Nah I don't think I will. This topic has run its course and it didn't start out as very intelligent.

 

If animals quite like being animals and thinking and behaving like animals, this is not my concern. I try to explain civilised nehaviour to sub-normals when I come across them, but my attention is flagging. Some horses just won't drink.

 

Not my problem. Enjoy your state of evolution, whatever it is.

[lvr181]

4 minutes ago, KiwiKiwi said:

Nah I don't think I will. This topic has run its course and it didn't start out as very intelligent.

 

If animals quite like being animals and thinking and behaving like animals, this is not my concern. I try to explain civilised nehaviour to sub-normals when I come across them, but my attention is flagging. Some horses just won't drink.

 

Not my problem. Enjoy your state of evolution, whatever it is.

Whatever.................hard to be humble sometimes. Have a beer and enjoy your weekend.

Edited June 21, 2018 by lvr181
Spelling correction

[lungbing]

There are many examples of a killer being eventually released, and then killing again.  there are no cases of an executed killer killing again.

[bluesofa]

9 minutes ago, lungbing said:

There are many examples of a killer being eventually released, and then killing again.  there are no cases of an executed killer killing again.

Unless someone threw his corpse out of a ten floor apartment and he fell on a passer by.

 

[digger70]

12 hours ago, yellowboat said:

In my opinion, laws are in place to protect the innocent and not to punish. 

 

"The dozen states that have chosen not to enact the death penalty since the Supreme Court ruled in 1976 that it was constitutionally permissible have not had higher homicide rates than states with the death penalty, government statistics and a new survey by The New York Times show."  https://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/22/us/absence-executions-special-report-states-with-no-death-penalty-share-lower.html

 

The questions that are puzzling are why now, why this prisoner and what are the benefits?   There is no evidence that a death penalty deters crime.  A final solution enacted by this government is alarming.

Of course  if only one gets done away with it will not deter much,,,, But the Jails are Full of bad criminals that should be put down , If they do away with a Few thousand of them  every Year Then it may deter,,,