Trump tries to defuse immigrant crisis, but policy hit by confusion

[bristolboy]

Just now, riclag said:

The Cato research institute was used for the study. 

For which study?

 

1 minute ago, zydeco said:

fivethirtyeight projected a Clinton victory over Trump.  Laughable.

Wrong. Five thirty eight gave Trump about a 30% chance of winning based on combining all the polls. That's almost 1 out of 3.

And it's a sure fire mark of a mathematical illiterate that they cherry pick results.

[zydeco]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

For which study?

 

Wrong. Five thirty eight gave Trump about a 30% chance of winning based on combining all the polls. That's almost 1 out of 3.

And it's a sure fire mark of a mathematical illiterate that they cherry pick results.

You don't know much about the US, do you? https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/

[bristolboy]

6 minutes ago, zydeco said:

Of course the fact is that the "young men most likely to be undocumented immigrants" would need to avoid taxes (a crime) or steal someone's identity (a crime) to work. If they are working, they are doing so illegally (a crime). 

But not a crime against people or property which is what most people worry about. And by using a fake social security number they are actually making a net contribution to Social Security since they won't be able to draw from it.

But really, what astonishes me is the complacency of right-wingers when it comes to the Federal Government not enforcing laws which carry much heavier penalties. I'm referring to the cultivation, sale, and distribution of marijuana. I don't understand why you aren't calling for Trump's impeachment for this massive dereliction of duty.

[zydeco]

16 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

 

And of course Republicans are so concerned about this that they want to cut off all funding to Planned Parenthood.

non sequitur. I suppose this is what you do when you've lost the argument that is the subject of this topic--in both the US and Europe.

[riclag]

26 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Who did what survey? There was no polling done.These numbers come from the government.You know, the same government whose economic figures you so eagerly tout.

"The Center for Immigration Studies, which supports stricter immigration policies, in a 2009 study said that overall understanding of immigrants and crime "remains confused" due to lack of data and contrary information.

Unless inmates are identified as immigrant or native-born, incarceration rates are a poor way to measure links between immigrants and crime, the study said".

http://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2017/aug/03/antonio-villaraigosa/mostly-true-undocumented-immigrants-less-likely-co/

[zydeco]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

But not a crime against people or property which is what most people worry about. And by using a fake social security number they are actually making a net contribution to Social Security since they won't be able to draw from it.

But really, what astonishes me is the complacency of right-wingers when it comes to the Federal Government not enforcing laws which carry much heavier penalties. I'm referring to the cultivation, sale, and distribution of marijuana. I don't understand why you aren't calling for Trump's impeachment for this massive dereliction of duty.

Incredibly dense post, here. People have had their credit history and lives ruined by illegals stealing their identity. People worry about it a great deal. If you knew anything about the US, you would realize this. There is even separate insurance marketed for it.

As for illegals' contribution to social security, well, if they get an amnesty or legal residence as you and the Democrats advocate, then they will get that money, won't they? Answer is yes, because it was already in the last two amnesty bills congress tried to sneak past the public.

[bristolboy]

Just now, zydeco said:

non sequitur. I suppose this is what you do when you've lost the argument that is the subject of this topic--in both the US and Europe.

No, I'm pointing out that prosecution of crimes is selective. In fact, it's always been selective. Governments have limited resources. Illegal immigration is a classic victimless crime. Normally it would bet low priority. Now the Trump administration wants to channel huge resources into policing it for no sound reason. So instead we get junk reasons like invoking high crime rates. And the evidence is overwhelming that illegal immigrants commit crime at a lower rate than native born Americans. And the counterarguments I get to that come from very dubious sources like an angry parent of a person murdered by an illegal immigrant. Or some page that lists people allegedly killed by illegal immigrants.

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, zydeco said:

Incredibly dense post, here. People have had their credit history and lives ruined by illegals stealing their identity. People worry about it a great deal. If you knew anything about the US, you would realize this. There is even separate insurance marketed for it.

As for illegals' contribution to social security, well, if they get an amnesty or legal residence as you and the Democrats advocate, then they will get that money, won't they? Answer is yes, because it was already in the last two amnesty bills congress tried to sneak past the public.

 

Same old argument as the homicide one. You have evidence that illegals do this at the same rate, higher rate, or lower rate than native Americans do? Bet you don't.

No, they don't get the money from social security if the get amnesty or are legalized. . That's lost to them forever.

[zydeco]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

very dubious sources like an angry parent of a person murdered by an illegal immigrant.

Sure, somebody who has had their family members murdered by illegals are "dubious sources."  Just ignore them and all the other citizens impacted through "victimless crimes" such as being hit by illegals driving drunk. Or had their taxes raised and public resources stretched to the limit. Your argument is clueless. 

[bristolboy]

4 minutes ago, riclag said:

"The Center for Immigration Studies, which supports stricter immigration policies, in a 2009 study said that overall understanding of immigrants and crime "remains confused" due to lack of data and contrary information.

Unless inmates are identified as immigrant or native-born, incarceration rates are a poor way to measure links between immigrants and crime, the study said".

http://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2017/aug/03/antonio-villaraigosa/mostly-true-undocumented-immigrants-less-likely-co/

And as someone else in that piece pointed out, there's an overwhelming number of studies opposed to their assertion. And that fact that crime has gone down in American while the number of illegal aliens resident in the USA is a very strong argument against them.

[riclag]

11 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Now the Trump administration wants to channel huge resources into policing it for no sound reason.

"On April 27, 2002, Ronald da Silva was standing with a friend in his driveway when he was shot and killed by an illegal alien who had been previously deported. The illegal alien was sentenced to 21 years in prison but will be released in 2020. Ronald da Silva’s mother, Agnes Gibboney, has made a powerful statement, “The guy that killed my son has a determinate sentence in prison but I have a lifetime sentence of grief and pain.” Since the tragedy occurred, Agnes has been on the front line pushing for immigration reform".

 

Another permanent separation from family due to a illegal  entering the country

https://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/examples-serious-crimes-illegal-aliens

[zydeco]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

No, they don't get the money from social security if the get amnesty or are legalized. . That's lost to them forever.

You are simply wrong about this. It was contained in the last two amnesty bills. Again, you don't seem to know much at all about this issue in the US. BTW, illegals are already claiming EITC simply through using a taxpayer ID.

[bristolboy]

5 minutes ago, zydeco said:

You are simply wrong about this. It was contained in the last two amnesty bills. Again, you don't seem to know much at all about this issue in the US. BTW, illegals are already claiming EITC simply through using a taxpayer ID.

You got some evidence for that? 

Because not even fairus.org agrees with you about that one.

[bristolboy]

11 minutes ago, riclag said:

"On April 27, 2002, Ronald da Silva was standing with a friend in his driveway when he was shot and killed by an illegal alien who had been previously deported. The illegal alien was sentenced to 21 years in prison but will be released in 2020. Ronald da Silva’s mother, Agnes Gibboney, has made a powerful statement, “The guy that killed my son has a determinate sentence in prison but I have a lifetime sentence of grief and pain.” Since the tragedy occurred, Agnes has been on the front line pushing for immigration reform".

 

Another permanent separation from family due to a illegal  entering the country

https://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/examples-serious-crimes-illegal-aliens

And given the facts, we know that f US born citizens commit homicide at a higher percentage than do illegal immigrants. So what's your point?

[riclag]

25 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

For which study?

Cato findings, Findings in a March 2017 study by the libertarian Cato Institute also support Villaraigosa's statement:

The Cato study used information from the U.S. Census Bureau's American Community Survey for immigrants aged 18 to 54 who are incarcerated in the United States. 

http://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2017/aug/03/antonio-villaraigosa/mostly-true-undocumented-immigrants-less-likely-co/

[bristolboy]

Just now, riclag said:

Cato findings, Findings in a March 2017 study by the libertarian Cato Institute also support Villaraigosa's statement:

The Cato study used information from the U.S. Census Bureau's American Community Survey for immigrants aged 18 to 54 who are incarcerated in the United States. 

http://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2017/aug/03/antonio-villaraigosa/mostly-true-undocumented-immigrants-less-likely-co/

Do you realize that you are arguing for my position and against yours?

[stevenl]

27 minutes ago, zydeco said:

You don't know much about the US, do you? https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/

Huh? Bristolboy was saying exactly (well, if 28.6% is almost 30%) what it said in your link.

[bristolboy]

19 minutes ago, zydeco said:

Sure, somebody who has had their family members murdered by illegals are "dubious sources."  Just ignore them and all the other citizens impacted through "victimless crimes" such as being hit by illegals driving drunk. Or had their taxes raised and public resources stretched to the limit. Your argument is clueless. 

Lots of empty rhetoric here. The kind of crap America's president indulges in. Not much of a one for numbers, are you?

[bristolboy]

31 minutes ago, zydeco said:

You don't know much about the US, do you? https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/

Here's what I wrote:

"Five thirty eight gave Trump about a 30% chance of winning based on combining all the polls." 

So according to you a 28.6% chance is not "about a 30% chance??

I may not know much about American, but it's clear that when it comes to numbers you're plain clueless.

 

[riclag]

10 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

And given the facts, we know that f US born citizens commit homicide at a higher percentage than do illegal immigrants. So what's your point?

My point is we are talking about illegals who commit a crime by entering the USA and then many  American' families have to suffer permanent separation because they have been killed by illegals  .We are not talking about US born citizens 

[riclag]

16 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Do you realize that you are arguing for my position and against yours?

Yes they had to interview them in jail

[riclag]

wrong post oops

[bristolboy]

31 minutes ago, riclag said:

Yes they had to interview them in jail

Now what are you on about? Can you be more specific and provide links?

[bristolboy]

36 minutes ago, riclag said:

My point is we are talking about illegals who commit a crime by entering the USA and then many  American' families have to suffer permanent separation because they have been killed by illegals  .We are not talking about US born citizens 

So maybe we shouldn't allow anyl immigrant at all?Or tourists? Because they also kill U.S. citizens? 

[Jingthing]

Just now, bristolboy said:

So maybe we shouldn't allow anyl immigrant at all?Or tourists? Because they also kill U.S. citizens? 

Careful. "trump" white nationalist fans would like that suggestion, excepting of course ...

Norweigans ... 

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

So maybe we shouldn't allow anyl immigrant at all?Or tourists? Because they also kill U.S. citizens? 

Just expel those pesty US citizens, no crime at all anymore after that.

[Becker]

2 hours ago, zydeco said:

fivethirtyeight projected a Clinton victory over Trump.  Laughable.

She won the popular vote by around 3 million. Strange that you find that laughable. Do you know what I find laughable? The fact that there still are people who believe and support the mental midget and compulsive liar currently defiling the WH.

[duanebigsby]

6 hours ago, bushdoctor said:

Naturalized Americans? 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization

 

Yes you are entirely  right. I used entirely the wrong terminology. I should have said American born and naturalized citizens kill far more than illegal immigrants. Doesn't change the sentiment.

[duanebigsby]

6 hours ago, moontang said:

might have been worth disclosing that the majority of first generation Mexican American kids do not live with both parents, and that is close to 90% in some parts of Arizona and New Mexico, but then again, that would take away from all the sensationalism of breaking up functional families.  If there was half the outrage over fifteen year old Mexicans giving birth at taxpayer expense, every day in America, as there is over sixty year old men having Thai girlfriends half their age, the world would be a better place.

Close to 50% Mexican/Americans are  born out of wedlock. Not the majority! 71% in the black community.

Should you kick the blacks out of USA too?

[bushdoctor]

6 hours ago, bristolboy said:

And here's something from the National Academy of Sciences:

Immigrants are in fact much less likely to commit crime than natives, and the presence of large numbers of immigrants seems to lower crime rates." The study added that "This disparity also holds for young men most likely to be undocumented immigrants: Mexican, Salvadoran, and Guatemalan men."

https://www.nap.edu/read/21746/chapter/9

You’re barking up the wrong tree, and in an unusually callous way. It’s not about statistics. The government has a right to know who is coming into the country. Congress has passed the laws and they will be enforced.