Grass removal w/o 'roundup'.

[notrub]

I very stupidly planted every evil type of grass onto our site in rural Isaan.  We had imported over 500 trucks of dirt to bring up the land level and when it started to rain it was a field of muck.  I have some experience with stabilizing slopes and what I have done in the past is to plant wild grass with big roots.  Well, Mr. Stupid here stuck in every variety of grass that grows wild around here.  That worked, too well I am afraid.  Now I want to get rid of it and plant a more civilized variety  that grows less quickly and will still keep the earth surface consolidated.  I do not want to resort to heavy, destructive military grade defoliants but there is nearly 1 rai of affected area and the roots are very well developed.  Do I just bite the bullet and remove by hand or is there another solution?  Ideas about the problem and also about what to plant when we get rid of the bad stuff will be welcome.   Thanks very much.

[grollies]

Glyphosate will kill off the grass and roots. Re-plant with 'yarfak'. Grows well, deep root system but does not spread. Can grow tall but will take strimming down to a foot high and grow back well.

[notrub]

Followup to this problem in my search for a description of  Glyphosate (thanks grollies) I came across the site pasted below.

 

https://www.momsacrossamerica.com/10_alternatives_to_roundup

[canuckamuck]

You can pull it all out, If you know which grass types you don't like then you can just pull out the baddies.

Pay someone 500 baht to bring a friend and pull it all out. same price as a 4 liter of Roundup.

This time of year people are pulling and cutting weeds all day long.

Edited June 23, 2018 by canuckamuck

[CLW]

What do you want to do with the land? Farming or just lawn?

[JungleBiker]

If the land is sloping, I would do the conversion in alternate strips (along the contour) so that you don't expose the whole plot at the same time and lose soil due to erosion by heavy rain. 

[notrub]

Thanks for comments.  We have nearly 2 rai of flat land near but not in a small village.  We are lucky to have many trees and plants and we only cut away some of the jungle and bamboo to  build our house.  I put the grass because the soil is just muck when it rains,  The crap grass that I put in worked OK but it is now out of control   This is a farming town and you would think that help would be easy to find but it is not.  Some farmers come and cut our grass for their animals but only when it suits them.  For free, but I want to clear it up and put in something more manageable .  The roundup company is not a friend of the earth and their products damage the environment   They are like the tobacco companies who denied the health problems with smoking even though their own research contradicted the public statements they were making.    I want to steer clear of these kind of products.  

[grollies]

3 hours ago, notrub said:

Thanks for comments.  We have nearly 2 rai of flat land near but not in a small village.  We are lucky to have many trees and plants and we only cut away some of the jungle and bamboo to  build our house.  I put the grass because the soil is just muck when it rains,  The crap grass that I put in worked OK but it is now out of control   This is a farming town and you would think that help would be easy to find but it is not.  Some farmers come and cut our grass for their animals but only when it suits them.  For free, but I want to clear it up and put in something more manageable .  The roundup company is not a friend of the earth and their products damage the environment   They are like the tobacco companies who denied the health problems with smoking even though their own research contradicted the public statements they were making.    I want to steer clear of these kind of products.  

Sorry @notrub I stupidly didn't check the topic title.

 

What you say about glyphosate is correct as a carcinogen. But it is highly effective and degrades quickly.

 

Having said that, I don't use it here any more.

 

Your best bet is to buy black plastic sheet and overlay the areas you want rid.

 

Leave it down for 3 or 4 months. The weeds/grass will die off, be incorporated into the soil and the sheet will help sterilize the soil of bacteria.

 

You should end up with some really nice ground with which you can start afresh.

 

Ok, so it's plastic in the environment but hey.....

[kickstart]

1 hour ago, grollies said:

Sorry @notrub I stupidly didn't check the topic title.

 

What you say about glyphosate is correct as a carcinogen. But it is highly effective and degrades quickly.

 

Having said that, I don't use it here any more.

 

Your best bet is to buy black plastic sheet and overlay the areas you want rid.

 

Leave it down for 3 or 4 months. The weeds/grass will die off, be incorporated into the soil and the sheet will help sterilize the soil of bacteria.

 

You should end up with some really nice ground with which you can start afresh.

 

Ok, so it's plastic in the environment but hey.....

3

Black plastic sheet is a good idea, but 2 rie  or even 1 rie of it  is a big area ,it would have to have some form of weight on to keep it down, another wise it will flap in the wind and tear ,you could use old car tyers  like we use to on sheeted silage clamps ,but finding enough car tyers ,and what do you do with them once the job is done ,could use soil  but soil  on them for 4-5 months, and now is the rainy season .

As for pulling it out , can not see it , if you have any Yar -Con, Para grass, it thrives in these type of conditions and pulling it will not work we have some and we tried pulling it just comes back. 

Not an easy solution, I think you will have to bite the bullet, and use glyphosate, then as grollies said plant Yar -Fak afterward. 

[Rally123]

Quote

Kill unwanted grass with vinegar. White or pickled vinegar is another great way tokill your grass without the use of harmful chemicals. It is safe and will not harm the environment. However, do not spray near any plants you wish to keep, as vinegarwill kill them too

https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/plant-problems/weeds/how-to-kill-grass-naturally-kill-unwanted-grass-in-your-yard.htm

[drtreelove]

7 hours ago, JungleBiker said:

If the land is sloping, I would do the conversion in alternate strips (along the contour) so that you don't expose the whole plot at the same time and lose soil due to erosion by heavy rain. 

I like this suggestion. And I would say sloping or not, do it in sections.

 

How about this:  mechanical control --- grub out a section by hand (by hoe), or rototill if you have that as a resource. But if you don't plant something and keep up with grass control, the grasses will come back.

 

Plant the rototilled section with a legume cover crop for a double whammy.  It competes with the grass and builds the soil. You will grow the bean plants up for about two months, and before they go to seed and get woody, you rototill the crop in to the soil as a green manure. You will be improving the soil and at the same time reworking the grass control every time you plant a new cover crop.  If you have irrigation you can keep this up all year. As you build soil organic matter content and get control of the grasses, you will be ready to plant a crop or a landscape. Keep advancing section by section until your property is all well managed with desirable plantings and regular weed control. 

[drtreelove]

42 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/plant-problems/weeds/how-to-kill-grass-naturally-kill-unwanted-grass-in-your-yard.htm

Thanks for that. GardeningKnowHow.com is a great resource with thousands of articles on all kinds of subjects. I'm now a Q&A "expert" answering tree care and IPM questions from all over the world. It's fascinating and challenging, and I'm learning exponentially by having to find the answers. 

[CLW]

You could try pelargonic acid that you can buy online.
Other than that a gas burner could also work is you want to spend some work on your land.

[drtreelove]

7 hours ago, CLW said:

You could try pelargonic acid that you can buy online.
Other than that a gas burner could also work is you want to spend some work on your land.

Good options.  But in my opinion, killing grass is the easy part, but then what? Watch it regrow or other weeds come in? Then kill those again, on and on.  My point is that you need a transition plan that includes affordable soil improvement to get to the point where the grass is not dominating and you have better soil tilth and fertility where you can grow more desirable plantings. 

 

Check out this video. Bob Due has a handle on "the new agriculture" where the whole inter-related picture is considered, and he appreciates and uses Albrecht soil mineral balancing, including micro nutrients that are so important for nutrient density, taste of the food and resistance to pests and diseases.  It starts out slow, but hang in there and watch the whole 25 minutes, there are some gems of market grower wisdom in the last 5 minutes to take to heart. 

 

Bob Due's YouTube  on why he doesn't have problems with insects.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsorZ3--B1U&feature=youtu.be

Edited June 24, 2018 by drtreelove

[kickstart]

1 hour ago, drtreelove said:

Good options.  But in my opinion, killing grass is the easy part, but then what? Watch it regrow or other weeds come in? Then kill those again, on and on.  My point is that you need a transition plan that includes affordable soil improvement to get to the point where the grass is not dominating and you have better soil tilth and fertility where you can grow more desirable plantings. 

 

Check out this video. Bob Due has a handle on "the new agriculture" where the whole inter-related picture is considered, and he appreciates and uses Albrecht soil mineral balancing, including micro nutrients that are so important for nutrient density, taste of the food and resistance to pests and diseases.  It starts out slow, but hang in there and watch the whole 25 minutes, there are some gems of market grower wisdom in the last 5 minutes to take to heart. 

 

Bob Due's YouTube  on why he doesn't have problems with insects.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsorZ3--B1U&feature=youtu.be

The op said he had  over 500 truckloads of soil .on the site, that is a lot of soil if it is done the Thai way it would have 

come from some farmer selling a piece of his land, a 360 back hoe making a very big hole ,point is will a lot of the soil be subsoil ,and a question for the Doctor, say sub soil come from say 10 meters down, about the extent of arm on a 360 backhoe, how fertile will that soil be, and trying to increase fertility, a lot of  good organic matter will be needed would the organic matter have to be of animal origin ?.

What the op has written it sounds if the soil is very heavy, turns to muck when it rains, that will take a lot of improving.

OK, grass grows well, but grass will grow almost anywhere. 

 

 

[canuckamuck]

I like this suggestion. And I would say sloping or not, do it in sections.
 
How about this:  mechanical control --- grub out a section by hand (by hoe), or rototill if you have that as a resource. But if you don't plant something and keep up with grass control, the grasses will come back.
 
Plant the rototilled section with a legume cover crop for a double whammy.  It competes with the grass and builds the soil. You will grow the bean plants up for about two months, and before they go to seed and get woody, you rototill the crop in to the soil as a green manure. You will be improving the soil and at the same time reworking the grass control every time you plant a new cover crop.  If you have irrigation you can keep this up all year. As you build soil organic matter content and get control of the grasses, you will be ready to plant a crop or a landscape. Keep advancing section by section until your property is all well managed with desirable plantings and regular weed control. 

Better hack down those beans with a weed whacker first. Rottotilling bean vines will be a huge battle as they wrap around your tines.


Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[drtreelove]

3 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

Better hack down those beans with a weed whacker first. Rottotilling bean vines will be a huge battle as they wrap around your tines.


Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Very true for some.   And instead of cutting at the bottom, start with krung tat ya at the top and whittle it down in small pieces.

 

It's also an option to cut and leave lay as mulch, which would get some degree of weed suppression. That's what I did when we  had mango and lamai orchards where I was on no-till to avoid disturbing absorbing roots.  

[CLW]

What also could work for the OP's land purpose is a flail mower / mulcher.
Then he doesn't have to take care of the grass residue and also increase the organic matter.

[thoongfoned]

back when we were trying to control the weeds on a yound rubber tree farm we made a roller and pulled it by the 2 wheel tractor.

at the mo i have a large area under pvc sheeting, works very well, most of the weeds/grass died off in the first month...

[drtreelove]

9 hours ago, thoongfoned said:

back when we were trying to control the weeds on a yound rubber tree farm we made a roller and pulled it by the 2 wheel tractor.

at the mo i have a large area under pvc sheeting, works very well, most of the weeds/grass died off in the first month...

Maybe works but these are not methods I would choose.  Rolling causes soil compaction and that is not a friend of soil aeration, tree absorbing roots and beneficial soil biology.  Plastic is proven effective and used widely for weed control. But it is just so damn ugly and unnatural looking. I'd rather look at weeds than plastic, or work my ass off to deal with it another way. Because I had to look at hundreds of acres of strawberry field plastic mulching where I used to live and I hated it. 

[kickstart]

6 hours ago, drtreelove said:

Maybe works but these are not methods I would choose.  Rolling causes soil compaction and that is not a friend of soil aeration, tree absorbing roots and beneficial soil biology.  Plastic is proven effective and used widely for weed control. But it is just so damn ugly and unnatural looking. I'd rather look at weeds than plastic, or work my ass off to deal with it another way. Because I had to look at hundreds of acres of strawberry field plastic mulching where I used to live and I hated it. 

I agree about rolling, what the op has said, the land is heavy, rolling the land will most certainly cause compaction.   Gardens and allotment holders in the UK have used old carpets laid down for weed control, works well, then someone pointed out all the chemicals in the carpet cleaning residues  could end up in the land, so now not so popular ,it did the job against weeds like bindweed, a creeping vine weed, and couch grass .

[grollies]

2 hours ago, kickstart said:

I agree about rolling, what the op has said, the land is heavy, rolling the land will most certainly cause compaction.   Gardens and allotment holders in the UK have used old carpets laid down for weed control, works well, then someone pointed out all the chemicals in the carpet cleaning residues  could end up in the land, so now not so popular ,it did the job against weeds like bindweed, a creeping vine weed, and couch grass .

Cardboard is effective as a groundcover and degrades well but also maybe has chemical residues?