Small AA Group - Tradition 3

[scorecard]

On 8/9/2018 at 2:51 PM, Neeranam said:

I think it's pretty obvious what it means. I agree, read the black and white; if you don't suffer from the disease of alcoholism, stay away, to which my sponsor, 40+ years sober, and his agree with me.

I've been in small meetings most my sobriety(in Thailand) and to tell you my honest opinion, a guy that decides he's an alcoholic when over 60 years old, with no drunkalogues to tell, is a lonely guy wanting attention or a group of friends. They are disruptive in that they keep real alcoholics away.

A real alcoholic generally doesn't reach 60 years old and decide to quit drinking and have no need for detox, no need to work the steps, and live happily ever after.

Different if the person is 20.

 

 

IMHO folks who are alcoholic would want to join a real AA group which is focused on one thing only, alcoholism, not a group which is a mixed-bag of quite different problems.

 

 

[473geo]

6 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

I could be wrong, but aren't all alcoholics mentally ill?

 

Comes across these days 'alcoholics' appear to wear the label 'alcoholic' as a rather unique and exclusive badge of achievement - I think you are right!!

[mogandave]

IMHO folks who are alcoholic would want to join a real AA group which is focused on one thing only, alcoholism, not a group which is a mixed-bag of quite different problems.
 
 

What might the one thing be that real AA group should focus on?

[impulse]

20 minutes ago, mogandave said:

What might the one thing be that real AA group should focus on?

 

 

Exactly.

 

Once the urge to pick up that first drink has been removed, the 12 steps are about so much more to work on to make our lives better and more productive. 

 

If all we were allowed to focus on was not picking up that first drink, most meetings without newcomers would get pretty stale.  Imagine a bunch of guys who haven't had a drink in over 10 years being limited to discussing problems we haven't had in over a decade.

 

I have been to meetings like that.  But rarely more than once.  Sometimes twice, just to see if I came on a bad night.

 

[mogandave]

 
Exactly.
 
Once the urge to pick up that first drink has been removed, the 12 steps are about so much more to work on to make our lives better and more productive. 
 
If all we were allowed to focus on was not picking up that first drink, most meetings without newcomers would get pretty stale.  Imagine a bunch of guys who haven't had a drink in over 10 years being limited to discussing problems we haven't had in over a decade.
 
I have been to meetings like that.  But rarely more than once.  Sometimes twice, just to see if I came on a bad night.
 

I don’t mind newcomer meetings, but it seems some here are of the opinion that that a lot of newcomers should be barred until they are certain they are alcoholic.

[mogandave]

It's going OK thanks. We contacted AA world services in New York and they suggested that we have a group conscience meeting. We did, and decided to keep it a "closed meeting" and the two non-alcoholics couldn't share if they didn't identify themselves as alcoholics. Fortunately, they stopped coming and we have a much stronger meeting, being the survivors of the same shipwreck. The survivor of the Vietnam war and the unhappy guy might have started their own meeting, but to be perfectly honest, I don't give a damn.

In your original post you indicated the two guys you don’t like did identify as alcoholics...


“Oh what a wicked web we weave...”

(just kidding)

[MrPatrickThai]

20 hours ago, 473geo said:

Comes across these days 'alcoholics' appear to wear the label 'alcoholic' as a rather unique and exclusive badge of achievement - I think you are right!!

I know I am right. The medical experts have us in the DSM5, and AA says we have a 3-fold disease - mental, spiritual and physical. There's nothing wrong with having a mental illness, is there?

 

[MrPatrickThai]

15 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

In your original post you indicated the two guys you don’t like did identify as alcoholics...


“Oh what a wicked web we weave...”

(just kidding)
 

 

I wonder if you are just kidding.

 

We actually changed the wording of the "identification", as suggested by the international desk in NY. When asked if they suffered from the disease of alcoholism, they refused to say yes, as they thought/think they don't have a disease. In fact, one said alcoholism is definitely not a disease. They got the message.

I never said I didn't like them, this is something you are stressing as if it is relevant.

I have been to many many AA meeting where I don't like people, but they have really helped me and I can identify with them. We don't kick people out for not liking them!

[MrPatrickThai]

15 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

I don’t mind newcomer meetings, but it seems some here are of the opinion that that a lot of newcomers should be barred until they are certain they are alcoholic.

They should be banned from sharing until they have decided, with the help of members if they are or not. Not hard to do step one. Any real alcoholic can do it as soon as they ask for help.

[MrPatrickThai]

16 hours ago, impulse said:

 

Exactly.

 

Once the urge to pick up that first drink has been removed, the 12 steps are about so much more to work on to make our lives better and more productive. 

 

If all we were allowed to focus on was not picking up that first drink, most meetings without newcomers would get pretty stale.  Imagine a bunch of guys who haven't had a drink in over 10 years being limited to discussing problems we haven't had in over a decade.

 

I have been to meetings like that.  But rarely more than once.  Sometimes twice, just to see if I came on a bad night.

 

I agree and think some groups are so desparate to get newcomers, they let anyone in.

[MrPatrickThai]

On 8/30/2018 at 8:32 PM, mogandave said:

 

I never had a cigarette and a cup of coffee and ended up in jail, getting fired, or waking up in a wet bed.
 

 

Did you do jail time?

[mogandave]

Although I didn't like them, that was not the point. You are correct.

Yeah, I thought you said you didn’t like them...

[mogandave]

Did you do jail time?

Not more than 30 times, and never longer than 5 days.

[mogandave]

I agree and think some groups are so desparate to get newcomers, they let anyone in.

So what is our “primary purpose”?

[impulse]

9 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

On 8/31/2018 at 8:06 AM, impulse said:

Exactly.

 

Once the urge to pick up that first drink has been removed, the 12 steps are about so much more to work on to make our lives better and more productive. 

 

If all we were allowed to focus on was not picking up that first drink, most meetings without newcomers would get pretty stale.  Imagine a bunch of guys who haven't had a drink in over 10 years being limited to discussing problems we haven't had in over a decade.

 

I have been to meetings like that.  But rarely more than once.  Sometimes twice, just to see if I came on a bad night.

 

I agree and think some groups are so desparate to get newcomers, they let anyone in.

 

They're not desperate for members. 

 

But if there are no newcomers, we discuss higher level problems than "don't take that first drink".  Getting sober doesn't solve life's problems.  Getting sober just puts alcoholics on an even playing field to solve our problems like other people.  Problems like relationships, jobs, debts and other issues we don't focus on when there's a newcomer in the meeting.

 

Those meetings have a whole different tone than meetings where the recovery centers dump a van load of newcomers every week, and the discussion focuses on the first step.  Sure, newcomer meeting have their place- and it's the #1 priority.  But if I stopped my growth at "putting the plug in the jug", I'd have been a pretty miserable dry drunk when life's problems still happened.

 

[mogandave]

They should be banned from sharing until they have decided, with the help of members if they are or not. Not hard to do step one. Any real alcoholic can do it as soon as they ask for help.

Aren’t the asking for help by walking in the door?

Nobody made me beg when I came in...

[Wilson Smith]

On 8/31/2018 at 11:12 PM, MrPatrickThai said:

I know I am right. The medical experts have us in the DSM5, and AA says we have a 3-fold disease - mental, spiritual and physical. There's nothing wrong with having a mental illness, is there?

 

And it seems someone here is still spiritual sick and according to the book "When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically."

[Neeranam]

On 9/3/2018 at 9:54 AM, Wilson Smith said:

And it seems someone here is still spiritual sick and according to the book "When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically."

After many years, I still have a spiritual malady, yet feel fine physically and mentally. Go figure!

[mogandave]

After many years, I still have a spiritual malady, yet feel fine physically and mentally. Go figure!

What is the spiritual malady you still have?

[Neeranam]

6 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

What is the spiritual malady you still have?

 

That's between my sponsor and I.

 

I suggest you ask your sponsor, assuming you are an AA member.

[mogandave]

That's between my sponsor and I.
 
I suggest you ask your sponsor, assuming you are an AA member.

You crack me up

[mogandave]

I've recently started a small AA group, closed meeting. The issue is that there are two members that come but are not alcoholics. They both identify as alcoholics but say they don't need to use the AA steps and suffer from other mental disorders(depression and PTSD). They say they use alcohol do treat their problems but never have any craving the next day, and can even stop after a few beers.
Tradition 3 says that one must have the disease of alcoholism -
Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.
What to do? There are a total of 5 members. 2 are 'demanding' their right to be there [emoji846] Should they be kicked out or asked to start their own, non-AA, AA meeting?

Hey, so where is this meeting? Is it on the website?

[Jonah Tenner]

On 8/27/2018 at 4:15 PM, mogandave said:

 

Where does it say that?

 

It doesn't.

[mogandave]

It doesn't.

Creative interpretation then?

[Jonah Tenner]

20 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Creative interpretation then?
 

 

As I see it, yes.

[mogandave]

As I see it, yes.

Pun intended?

[Jonah Tenner]

30 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Pun intended?

 

Yes

[mogandave]

Yes

Not bad...

[likerdup1]

I had to google that, but YES lol. http://aa.activeboard.com/t53403788/does-anyone-know/?page=1
 
"Clancy the self-appointed guru of the Pacific Group tells women they have to wear dresses and men jackets when they participate at their meetings. Men must not have beards. The idea is that conformity is part of the so-called cure of Alcoholism. Very controlling male chauvinist."


"There is an AA meeting in woodland hills called the Pacific Group. It's a mens stag meeting on fri. nights. This meeting is run like a Cult. AA is to help people quit drinking, not to try to control the members ever move. They will tell you how to act, what to wear etc... No where in the Big Book of AA does it talk about this BS."

"There are cult like groups within AA. Mostly in California. For example, The Pacific Group, where you are not allowed to have facial hair and are required to wear a suit. They have a GURU named Clancy who controls the group and many individuals."
 
Group speaking rules:


Wear a modest dress and make-up (men must wear a jacket and tie. No gym shoes allowed. Iintroduce yourself as a Recovered Alcoholic. Give both your sobriety date and sponsors name. Do not use curse words, and limit quotations either to the first 164 pages of the Big Book or to the Other Big Book.



Group rules: (partial list)


1) No medications should be taken whatsoever. If a sponsee or fellow AAer is doing so, they are told that is "untreated alcoholism". The PG considers all psychiatric/psychotropic drugs regardless of doctor prescription ruinous to ones sobriety. 

Pacific Group members and sponsors, are telling people to stop taking prescribed medication for illnesses such as bipolar and schizophrenia, and just trust the Twelve Steps to heal them. That borders on criminal irresponsibility. 


It is also practicing medicine without a license, because they are countermanding the orders of a real doctor. 

It is also practicing medicine without any training those fools have never gone to medical school. Attending A.A. meetings for a few years does not make someone a competent doctor or psychiatrist. 


Medications of any kind are disparaged, and any diagnosis of disorder other than the Big Book's disease concept of alcoholism meets with strong opposition. The parallel with "faith healing" should be obvious and the same pitfalls are present. To such individuals, there is no such thing as clinical depression.

Sponsor direction to stop seeing a psychiatrist and/or a psychologist, resulting in relapses, suicides, and psychiatric episodes.



2) Opposite sex Sponsors are encouraged. Sponsors are assigned rather than chosen. Sponsorship in the PG is not optional.





3) Long distance sponsorship is encouraged. 





4) The cross-continent sponsorship line (ie:Grandsponsors, great grandsponsors, etc) is integral and important to know.




5) Inventories are called "Giving a First Step" 
which is a detailed confession to the entire group that often goes back to earliest childhood and then focuses mostly on the period when the 'sinner (confessor)' had the most hormone-related activity, because that will have the most cachet. The more lurid the details, the more intently the group listens. Afterwards, there is much hugging and congratulating, so everyone can feel absolved. 



6) Members are encouraged to break off contact with friends and family outside the program, even those who do not drink, and to get an "AA boyfriend". Members are also known to be pressured into having sex with other members.




7) The PG does not allow drugs to be discussed in meetings.



[emoji41] The PG makes the newcomers sit in special chairs so everyone knows they are fresh. (Lamont Oaks)



9) The PG group actively goes out to attract older men and younger women.




10) If someone attempts to leave the PG group or go to other, non-PG meetings, they are told: "You will fail. You will die." 

Members are only allowed to go to their meetings, and only talk to people in their group.


11) People are told that only AA knows what is good for them, and if therapists or doctors disagree, drop them and find one that does.


ALSO:

*In order to become a member of the PG, a member of the PG must sponsor you

*In order to vote at a group conscience meeting, you must be a member of the PG, which means that you must have a sponsor in the group.

*The PG groups believe in sponsor direction, not sponsor guidance.

*Direction to attend a meeting every night of every week, and, as mentioned earlier, only MG meetings. Attendance is mandatory and the sponsor must grant permission when a meeting cannot be attended.

*Direction to withhold child visitation to a spouse who is outside the PG or AA in general.

*Direction on who to be sexually active with and/or who to get into a personal relationship with, regardless of his/her age.

*Direction to live with others in the PG in PG group homes.

*Sexual activity is encouraged by justifying it as helping members stay away from drugs and alcohol and by stating that it is a "true spiritual experience."

*Sponsor/sponsee confidentiality is violated and personal information is shared with the leader and others in the hierarchy regularly. Written 4th Steps (an AA member's very personal inventory on sensitive issues including sex) have been passed on from sponsors to members of the hierarchy. This information is sometimes revealed openly in front of others during a meeting.

*As is suggested in the Sponsorship Pamphlet, new members are strongly encouraged to select a sponsor of the same sex. In the PG this is frequently violated, resulting in the abuse of power.

*Certain members of the PG direct other members to serve the leader and his hierarchy. While they do bring meetings into detox centers, rehabs and jails, it is for the sole purpose of recruiting new members into their group. Certain members of the PG refer to this practice as "Outreach". (AA, as a whole, is a program of attraction, not promotion. AA does not recruit members.) 

*Financial support is often disguised as gifts. 

*'Service work ' includes activities such as raking a sponsor's lawn, cleaning his/her home, doing his/her laundry, etc. (This is documented as cult behavior in literature on the subject and is not considered AA service.)

*They have directed members to cease seeing their psychiatrist and/or therapist. (A cult tactic that is described in literature on the topic.)

*They have directed members to stop taking medication prescribed to them by a medical professional and based on a diagnosis and treatment plan.
"AA is not a medical organization, does not give out medicines or medical advice."24
AA does not discourage members from seeking 
qualified help and even encourages it in our primary literature.

*They have directed members to throw away prescribed medication and to change their sobriety dates inferring the member was never sober while taking the medication. 

*Certain members of the hierarchy have ostracized and alienated other members and directed sponsees to do the same if those members are on any medications. Some former members have experienced being completely ignored when speaking to or approaching anyone in the group. 

If they are so messed up why are they so popular and effective? I think a lot of this is gossip. Clancy has helped a lot of low bottom drunks out of the Bowery in LA and into recovery and society.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[likerdup1]

I had to google that, but YES lol. http://aa.activeboard.com/t53403788/does-anyone-know/?page=1
 
"Clancy the self-appointed guru of the Pacific Group tells women they have to wear dresses and men jackets when they participate at their meetings. Men must not have beards. The idea is that conformity is part of the so-called cure of Alcoholism. Very controlling male chauvinist."


"There is an AA meeting in woodland hills called the Pacific Group. It's a mens stag meeting on fri. nights. This meeting is run like a Cult. AA is to help people quit drinking, not to try to control the members ever move. They will tell you how to act, what to wear etc... No where in the Big Book of AA does it talk about this BS."

"There are cult like groups within AA. Mostly in California. For example, The Pacific Group, where you are not allowed to have facial hair and are required to wear a suit. They have a GURU named Clancy who controls the group and many individuals."
 
Group speaking rules:


Wear a modest dress and make-up (men must wear a jacket and tie. No gym shoes allowed. Iintroduce yourself as a Recovered Alcoholic. Give both your sobriety date and sponsors name. Do not use curse words, and limit quotations either to the first 164 pages of the Big Book or to the Other Big Book.



Group rules: (partial list)


1) No medications should be taken whatsoever. If a sponsee or fellow AAer is doing so, they are told that is "untreated alcoholism". The PG considers all psychiatric/psychotropic drugs regardless of doctor prescription ruinous to ones sobriety. 

Pacific Group members and sponsors, are telling people to stop taking prescribed medication for illnesses such as bipolar and schizophrenia, and just trust the Twelve Steps to heal them. That borders on criminal irresponsibility. 


It is also practicing medicine without a license, because they are countermanding the orders of a real doctor. 

It is also practicing medicine without any training those fools have never gone to medical school. Attending A.A. meetings for a few years does not make someone a competent doctor or psychiatrist. 


Medications of any kind are disparaged, and any diagnosis of disorder other than the Big Book's disease concept of alcoholism meets with strong opposition. The parallel with "faith healing" should be obvious and the same pitfalls are present. To such individuals, there is no such thing as clinical depression.

Sponsor direction to stop seeing a psychiatrist and/or a psychologist, resulting in relapses, suicides, and psychiatric episodes.



2) Opposite sex Sponsors are encouraged. Sponsors are assigned rather than chosen. Sponsorship in the PG is not optional.





3) Long distance sponsorship is encouraged. 





4) The cross-continent sponsorship line (ie:Grandsponsors, great grandsponsors, etc) is integral and important to know.




5) Inventories are called "Giving a First Step" 
which is a detailed confession to the entire group that often goes back to earliest childhood and then focuses mostly on the period when the 'sinner (confessor)' had the most hormone-related activity, because that will have the most cachet. The more lurid the details, the more intently the group listens. Afterwards, there is much hugging and congratulating, so everyone can feel absolved. 



6) Members are encouraged to break off contact with friends and family outside the program, even those who do not drink, and to get an "AA boyfriend". Members are also known to be pressured into having sex with other members.




7) The PG does not allow drugs to be discussed in meetings.



[emoji41] The PG makes the newcomers sit in special chairs so everyone knows they are fresh. (Lamont Oaks)



9) The PG group actively goes out to attract older men and younger women.




10) If someone attempts to leave the PG group or go to other, non-PG meetings, they are told: "You will fail. You will die." 

Members are only allowed to go to their meetings, and only talk to people in their group.


11) People are told that only AA knows what is good for them, and if therapists or doctors disagree, drop them and find one that does.


ALSO:

*In order to become a member of the PG, a member of the PG must sponsor you

*In order to vote at a group conscience meeting, you must be a member of the PG, which means that you must have a sponsor in the group.

*The PG groups believe in sponsor direction, not sponsor guidance.

*Direction to attend a meeting every night of every week, and, as mentioned earlier, only MG meetings. Attendance is mandatory and the sponsor must grant permission when a meeting cannot be attended.

*Direction to withhold child visitation to a spouse who is outside the PG or AA in general.

*Direction on who to be sexually active with and/or who to get into a personal relationship with, regardless of his/her age.

*Direction to live with others in the PG in PG group homes.

*Sexual activity is encouraged by justifying it as helping members stay away from drugs and alcohol and by stating that it is a "true spiritual experience."

*Sponsor/sponsee confidentiality is violated and personal information is shared with the leader and others in the hierarchy regularly. Written 4th Steps (an AA member's very personal inventory on sensitive issues including sex) have been passed on from sponsors to members of the hierarchy. This information is sometimes revealed openly in front of others during a meeting.

*As is suggested in the Sponsorship Pamphlet, new members are strongly encouraged to select a sponsor of the same sex. In the PG this is frequently violated, resulting in the abuse of power.

*Certain members of the PG direct other members to serve the leader and his hierarchy. While they do bring meetings into detox centers, rehabs and jails, it is for the sole purpose of recruiting new members into their group. Certain members of the PG refer to this practice as "Outreach". (AA, as a whole, is a program of attraction, not promotion. AA does not recruit members.) 

*Financial support is often disguised as gifts. 

*'Service work ' includes activities such as raking a sponsor's lawn, cleaning his/her home, doing his/her laundry, etc. (This is documented as cult behavior in literature on the subject and is not considered AA service.)

*They have directed members to cease seeing their psychiatrist and/or therapist. (A cult tactic that is described in literature on the topic.)

*They have directed members to stop taking medication prescribed to them by a medical professional and based on a diagnosis and treatment plan.
"AA is not a medical organization, does not give out medicines or medical advice."24
AA does not discourage members from seeking 
qualified help and even encourages it in our primary literature.

*They have directed members to throw away prescribed medication and to change their sobriety dates inferring the member was never sober while taking the medication. 

*Certain members of the hierarchy have ostracized and alienated other members and directed sponsees to do the same if those members are on any medications. Some former members have experienced being completely ignored when speaking to or approaching anyone in the group. 

If they are so messed up why are they so popular and effective? I think a lot of this is gossip. Clancy has helped a lot of low bottom drunks out of the Bowery in LA and into recovery and society.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app