Trump: Harley-Davidsons being made in Thailand is "the beginning of the end"

[Redline]

14 hours ago, Briggsy said:

It's all about the soundbite. And the sad thing is many U.S. voters are dumb enough, desperate enough or ignorant enough to buy straight into it.

 

Automotive companies with worldwide sales understand that in today's world they need to have several production centres around the world. The industry is very capital intensive and decisions have to be taken years in advance. Many factors enter the equation. Too many to list but here is a few. Cost of labour force, Skill of labour force, Location of customers, Tax and tax incentives, location of parts suppliers, stability of business environment, development of local automotive assembly industry.

 

The president is just talking complete garbage as usual.

 Most Americans understand more than you might believe, although it appears 30 percent are ignorant fools, and I know some of them personally 

[Bundooman]

19 hours ago, JAG said:

Honda, Yamaha and co. seem to have coped with building motorcycles here, quite well really. 

 

Mind you, I don't know how well the Thais are geared up to supply greasy grey pigtails, grubby jeans or garishly painted leather waistcoats, although my local "Tessaban market" does have a stall selling the obligatory red and white spotted hankies...

 

You may have gathered, I'm not really a motorcyclist!

Nor me, but what I do know is that I have seen HD motorbikes here in Thailand for some 10 years now, and they didn't all come from the USA - did they?

[Kitmakmak]

18 hours ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

For all Americans who now realise they should not have voted Trump in - be careful what you wish for. This is not the end,, the end is discovering what people think of you and how influential you really are in the world.

 

Donald will be happy to show you.

Americans who voted for Trump are very happy. He is doing what he promised in the campaign. MAGA

[pegman]

7 hours ago, rtr4 said:

The steel tarifs has been recent. The plan for transfering the production was long before and has nothing to do with this. If someone say so it is just an excuse

Yes, Harley said it was the plan to manufacture in ASEAN if the USA didn't join the TPP.  The negotiations of that trade deal started in 2008 so that plan could have been in place for years. Trump pulled the USA out of that deal so the Harley decision is on him. 

[ksamuiguy]

14 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

As one who did not vote for either flawed US Presidential major party nominees, I agree with you. A bit of a dilemma with me. I want to believe in a participatory democracy but ...(whoa, a shiver just ran down my spine). I am holding my breath awaiting the November US election. If the American citizens do not turn out en masse and elect progressive candidates I will have to resign myself that my country is lost and that it will not have any hope to recover in the time I have left in this life. As has been observed, the problem with democracy is counting heads, not what is in those heads. I do understand the justified frustration/anger of the working middle class (not limited to the US) but they are reacting with gut emotions, not reason....

And who would that be?

Edited June 28, 2018 by ksamuiguy

[KiwiKiwi]

14 minutes ago, ksamuiguy said:

And who would that be?

 

Well, there's a fair few on here react with gut emotions and not reason. I guess people are the same everywhere

[KiwiKiwi]

1 hour ago, Kitmakmak said:

Americans who voted for Trump are very happy. He is doing what he promised in the campaign. MAGA

 

Fully agree. The Donald is doing exactly what it was hoped he would do.

[StevieAus]

20 hours ago, doggie1955 said:

Tariffs need to be increased first of all. (I am from the US). If the tariffs were higher then the money it costs to outsource products might make companies start to use Americans to produce goods. I believe it is always better to have any country use their own people to do the jobs to get things made, instead of getting poor little Chinese people to make our shoes and toys, and yes I do realize that China is not the only country that companies use to make cheaper products, but its a big one. If tariffs were higher then the companies would not make as much money from foreign people and more local citizens would have jobs, and more businesses would buy materials from inside their own countries...MAGA

There used to be tariffs  on imported goods in Australia, and in those days cars, white goods, clothes, leather goods etc etc were manufactured.

Then we were told there had to be a level playing field, reduce or remove the tariffs and manufacture what we were good at, not sure what that was.

Now virtually nothing is made in Australia, fifty percent of the population receive some form of government payment and a very expensive place to live.

[Kerryd]

13 hours ago, lvr181 said:

cheap charleys? The place is full of them. 

 

Harleys may be suitable for American roads but hardly suitable for Thai roads. Any decent Jap bike or Ducati would blow them into the weeds with finesse and less noise.

Sigh.

It's not all about speed. I could care less if it takes me 30 minutes longer to get Sa Kaeo or Trat or Korat than a guy on a crotch rocket. I cruise around 120 (depending on traffic) and can kick it up to 140-160 on occasion (if the conditions are right). I don't need to be trying to crack 200 every time I ride to the nearest 7-11 and I don't need to prove myself to every other vehicle on the highway every time I ride. Some guy passes me on the highway (car or bike) I'll give them a wave, not try to run them down to prove that I'm bigger, badder and/or faster than them.

And the noise ? Seriously ? I hear rice rockets screaming at high speed from miles away and they tend to be a LOT louder than most Harleys (different pitch and frequency - the high end whine of a crotch rocket really grates on the ears - like fingernails on a chalkboard).

But like they say, different strokes for different folks. Some people like to ride like its "Death Race 2018" every time they get on a bike. Some like to cruise and take things easy (which would explain why most Harleys fit into the "cruiser" category of big bikes. They aren't meant to be speed demons dashing through traffic like it's a video game.)

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, StevieAus said:

There used to be tariffs  on imported goods in Australia, and in those days cars, white goods, clothes, leather goods etc etc were manufactured.

Then we were told there had to be a level playing field, reduce or remove the tariffs and manufacture what we were good at, not sure what that was.

Now virtually nothing is made in Australia, fifty percent of the population receive some form of government payment and a very expensive place to live.

What are “white goods”?

[Thian]

21 hours ago, Jeremy50 said:

Has anyone with a flat stomach ever ridden a Harley? Or would it just topple over? Just wondering.

I had a great laugh one day at a fuelstation along the highway.

 

There was a thai bikerclub there as well and they drove hd's. When one of them had to get his bike out of the qeueu of bikes he had to push it backwards but his legs were too short, couldn't reach the ground.

So 3 of his bikermates had to help him pushing the thing 5 meters back which was very hard for them. The driver was sitting on it with his feet dangling in the air...very funny.

[Kerryd]

14 hours ago, digger70 said:

Maybe not their Value But For Sure Quality,,,  wouldn't want to Own /Ride a HD Myself

 

14 hours ago, Briggsy said:

Neither would I. I like Japanese makes.

Product Quality is an issue for management. With strong QC, firms like Honda have proved Thai plants can compete well with the rest of the world. This is not an issue for a president of the U.S. to attack a company on. It is bad for American business.

Most, if not all of the parts will still come from the same manufacturing plants that currently supply all the Harley parts.

The plan was simply to assemble the bikes in Thailand, not build them from scratch. Some parts will differ than those used on North American bikes because of differences in things like emission standards. That is true even for the bikes assembled in the US - for international markets.

The very first digit of the HD serial number tells you if the bike was assembled for the domestic (American) market (a "1") or if it was built for the international market (a "5"). 

The original plan was that Harley would import the parts to a factory in Rayong and assemble 3-4 different models of bikes. Ones I assume they think will sell in the SE Asian market (i.e. Sportsters, Dynas, maybe Softails).
It would be far too costly and inefficient to set up all the manufacturing plants needed to produce all the parts needed to build 3-4 models of bikes, unless they were absolutely sure they would dominate the market for years to come. It is more likely that they might use local manufacturing for things like mufflers/pipes, tires and/or some other minor parts (mirrors, lights, handle bars).

This plan is really no different than Bombardier's plan to start assembling it's mid-range jet in the USA after they got slapped with huge tariffs when an American competitor complained that they couldn't sell their jets (which were of a completely different class) at the same (or cheaper) price. 
If the final product is assembled "in country" it can be classed as being "made" in that country, even if all the parts come from other countries. Thus they avoid the tariffs (or most of them).

A lot of people in Thailand would love to own a Harley but for most it's the same as wishing to own a Mercedes. Just too damn expensive ! Getting the price down to where it is competitive with other "made in Thailand" bikes and I'm sure there will be a surge in the numbers sold, not just in Thailand but throughout SE Asia (which is the whole idea behind setting up an assembly plant here).

I would also hope to assume that Harley will ensure the quality of the bikes, for it's own sake. It would do them absolutely no good at all to be putting crappy bikes on the market as it wouldn't take long for word to get around and then their sales would plummet.
Think about it. Harley's still have a reputation for "leaking oil" which hasn't actually be a problem for decades but word of mouth keeps the old stories alive. I bought my bike in '08 when I was working overseas and as a result for the first 5 years I owned it, it sat in storage for 75% of that time and it never leaked a drop of oil. I've ridden from Pattaya to Kampaeng Phet in half a day, parked at a resort and then next morning - not a drop of oil to be seen anywhere.
But the stories persist and if Harley were to put a low quality product on the market, their brand would suffer. Not just locally, but everywhere and it the stories would spread and be retold over and over again for generations.

 

[stanleycoin]

7 minutes ago, Thian said:

I had a great laugh one day at a fuelstation along the highway.

 

There was a thai bikerclub there as well and they drove hd's. When one of them had to get his bike out of the qeueu of bikes he had to push it backwards but his legs were too short, couldn't reach the ground.

So 3 of his bikermates had to help him pushing the thing 5 meters back which was very hard for them. The driver was sitting on it with his feet dangling in the air...very funny.

I think maybe Harley Davidson's, should come with some sort of health warning

My mate, was seriously injured on one of these.

He fell asleep.   

[Kerryd]

7 minutes ago, Thian said:

I had a great laugh one day at a fuelstation along the highway.

 

There was a thai bikerclub there as well and they drove hd's. When one of them had to get his bike out of the qeueu of bikes he had to push it backwards but his legs were too short, couldn't reach the ground.

So 3 of his bikermates had to help him pushing the thing 5 meters back which was very hard for them. The driver was sitting on it with his feet dangling in the air...very funny.

No lie - my dad bought the first Harley Sportster sold in British Columbia when they first came out. After he moved to Thailand in 2010, he went out and bought a new Harley Sportster. (He was frikken 75 at the time ! What was he thinking ? Maybe he wanted to relive some memories from the happier times of his life before he died.)

His feet could barely touch the ground as well, even on a Sportster ! We had to get a new seat that was cut down about 1 1/2 inches from the stock height so he could get his feet on the ground.

(He didn't keep the bike very long. A couple of short rides, a couple of minor spills and it was back in the shop with a for sale sign within a couple weeks.)
 

Most "cruisers" weigh in around 280-320 kgs (617-705 pounds) and they can be a bit of a pain to move in tight spaces. I've had problems in gas station lots before because the concrete was so smooth I couldn't get any traction wearing running shoes or riding boots. It is very common for Harley riders to help one another out when it comes to parking. They aren't as snooty about such things as some others may be.

I had a laugh when I saw a Thai girl riding a 1200cc Ninja crotch rocket in Pattaya a couple years ago. She looked like a strong breeze would knock her over and when the bike was upright, she had to be on her tip-toes. She had to be 50 kgs at most and maybe 5'3"/5'4". The first thing I thought was, if she ever dropped that bike there was no way she'd ever get it back up without help.
(I noticed too that she made sure to park it so that she didn't have to "back it out" or "back it in", instead she parked parallel to the curb so she could just hop on and ride away.) 
 

 

[ballpoint]

40 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

What are “white goods”?

Large home appliances: fridges, washing machines, ovens etc that traditionally had a white enamel coating.  (And a more powerful engine than the subject of this thread).

[Thian]

32 minutes ago, stanleycoin said:

I think maybe Harley Davidson's, should come with some sort of health warning

My mate, was seriously injured on one of these.

He fell asleep.   

I never drove a HD but had very big Honda's which were much much faster than them. In Holland all bikers greeted eachother in the past but the HD guys refused to greet  a Japanese bike driver, they feel too good for that.

 

Harleys are like the bikes from OCC which even don't have rear-suspension, open belts which can grab the trousers and so on. Who buys such a prehistoric machine is what i always think.

 

 

[Kerryd]

 

4 hours ago, Bundooman said:

Nor me, but what I do know is that I have seen HD motorbikes here in Thailand for some 10 years now, and they didn't all come from the USA - did they?

Actually I believe most of them probably did come from the US. One place I knew used to get their (new) bikes from the UAE, who imported them from the US (must have had cheap import rates or something). Others are shipped direct from the US. Over the years some people have brought their own bikes over. (If the bike is old enough and you can prove you were the owner for a certain period of time, you can import a bike without paying any duties/tariffs but you still have the shipping and insurance costs to get it here).
 

Harley (USA) produces a lot of bikes for it's overseas markets (Europe, Asia, Middle East). Most are near identical to what is sold in North America, but perhaps with some small differences (like exhaust systems).

Bikes built for the American market have serial numbers that start with a "1". Those assembled for sale to International markets have serial numbers starting with a "5".

 

In Thailand, there are bikes which have been built from "assembled parts", meaning people ordered the components separately (thus paying a lower rate for duties and tariffs) and then assembled the bike in Thailand. Those bikes usually are cheaper, but harder to insure as they usually aren't properly registered and often do not have a registration book (or they have a "bent book").

Harleys have probably been in Thailand since WW II and probably gained a lot in popularity during Vietnam. Having seen how many there are at every Burapa Bike Week in Pattaya, I was a bit surprised that they weren't being built over here already as there seemed to be a huge market for them, to the point people were buying cheaper bikes and trying to make them look more like Harleys.
(When you see all those "choppers" with the really long front forks, take a look at how many exhaust pipes are coming from the engine and how small they are. Most of those bikes are not Harleys, just modified to look like the "choppers" of old.)

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Kerryd
grammar - added pic - because I CAN !

[pegman]

Anyone seen or heard of a guesstimate price HD will be selling for, tariff free, in % terms higher than say the American market?

[cardinalblue]

KK - are you sure there are Americans who voted for Trump are unhappy?

 

trump voters are very pleased with what Donald says he was going to do....

 

You are  trying to apply rationale  of why people voted for him...

[Ramdas]

40 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

 

Actually I believe most of them probably did come from the US. One place I knew used to get their (new) bikes from the UAE, who imported them from the US (must have had cheap import rates or something). Others are shipped direct from the US. Over the years some people have brought their own bikes over. (If the bike is old enough and you can prove you were the owner for a certain period of time, you can import a bike without paying any duties/tariffs but you still have the shipping and insurance costs to get it here).
 

Harley (USA) produces a lot of bikes for it's overseas markets (Europe, Asia, Middle East). Most are near identical to what is sold in North America, but perhaps with some small differences (like exhaust systems).

Bikes built for the American market have serial numbers that start with a "1". Those assembled for sale to International markets have serial numbers starting with a "5".

 

In Thailand, there are bikes which have been built from "assembled parts", meaning people ordered the components separately (thus paying a lower rate for duties and tariffs) and then assembled the bike in Thailand. Those bikes usually are cheaper, but harder to insure as they usually aren't properly registered and often do not have a registration book (or they have a "bent book").

Harleys have probably been in Thailand since WW II and probably gained a lot in popularity during Vietnam. Having seen how many there are at every Burapa Bike Week in Pattaya, I was a bit surprised that they weren't being built over here already as there seemed to be a huge market for them, to the point people were buying cheaper bikes and trying to make them look more like Harleys.
(When you see all those "choppers" with the really long front forks, take a look at how many exhaust pipes are coming from the engine and how small they are. Most of those bikes are not Harleys, just modified to look like the "choppers" of old.)

 

How can they possibly make a turn, that’s just ridicoulsly stupid and wasteful  to built something like that ? If someone was to giving me any HD Free ( I would never buy one even in a toy version of it ) I would quickly try to get rid of it and buy a proper motorcycle ?

[lvr181]

18 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

i guess this is winning?

Only in the "great leader's" tiny mind.

 

But I do have to admire that he can multi-task - shoot from the hip with foot in mouth. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by lvr181

[lvr181]

17 hours ago, Lupatria said:

...and have you ever seen a HONDA, KAWASAKI or any other rice burner as beautiful as my bike?

Beauty is only in the eye of the beholder. And this 'beholder' doesn't think the bike is beautiful. Eye catching, maybe. 

[Johnnyondaspot]

On 6/28/2018 at 11:10 AM, doggie1955 said:

Tariffs need to be increased first of all. (I am from the US). If the tariffs were higher then the money it costs to outsource products might make companies start to use Americans to produce goods. I believe it is always better to have any country use their own people to do the jobs to get things made, instead of getting poor little Chinese people to make our shoes and toys, and yes I do realize that China is not the only country that companies use to make cheaper products, but its a big one. If tariffs were higher then the companies would not make as much money from foreign people and more local citizens would have jobs, and more businesses would buy materials from inside their own countries...MAGA

Obviously you haven't taken an economics class and you've just done what Trump does all the time, oversimplify the subject.  It's that easy, huh? ( Like healthcare and budget matters).

[KiwiKiwi]

3 hours ago, Thian said:

I never drove a HD but had very big Honda's which were much much faster than them. In Holland all bikers greeted eachother in the past but the HD guys refused to greet  a Japanese bike driver, they feel too good for that.

 

Harleys are like the bikes from OCC which even don't have rear-suspension, open belts which can grab the trousers and so on. Who buys such a prehistoric machine is what i always think.

 

 

 

Widely recognised as an American icon. Draw your own conclusions...

[Stuart21]

On 6/28/2018 at 10:32 AM, 300sd said:

It's a cycle! 

 

Trumps cycle will also come to an end.

Thank Christ. once he has finished making america ‘grate agen’

[DrTuner]

8 hours ago, Kitmakmak said:

Americans who voted for Trump are very happy. He is doing what he promised in the campaign. MAGA

Quite a novelty from a politician. No wonder people are screaming, politicians doing what they promised is way out of the comfort zone.

[DILLIGAD]

Quite a novelty from a politician. No wonder people are screaming, politicians doing what they promised is way out of the comfort zone.

Agree and it’s also so rare to look after your own native citizens as opposed to free-loaders!!


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[oldrunner]

Harley Davidson is an Iconic product associated with the USA. This bike should remain in the USA despite it's being extremely expensive. Not a biker but would wonder about Thai building quality.

[lvr181]

14 minutes ago, oldrunner said:

Harley Davidson is an Iconic product associated with the USA. This bike should remain in the USA despite it's being extremely expensive. Not a biker but would wonder about Thai building quality.

You don't think HD would constantly monitor build quality? Mmmm...........

[DILLIGAD]

You don't think HD would constantly monitor build quality? Mmmm...........

Triumph do and I’ve heard favorable comments about the current range from LOS.


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