Put your cards on the table, EU makes last Brexit call to Britain

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, bristolboy said:

The EU was created because the EC was failing. A customs union isn't enough. The disaster came in the form of the EURO. That was a huge and bizarre mistake. There was never rational justification for it. Support for it was based on emotionalism.

It was all on the table well before the UK joined.

 

8. They have reaffirmed their wish to carry on more rapidly with the
further development necessary to reinforce the Community and its development
into an economic union. They are of the opinion that the process of integration
should end in a Community of stability and growth. With this object in
view they have agreed that on the basis of the memorandum presented by the
Commission on 12 February 1969 and in close collaboration with the
Commission a plan by stages should be drawn up by the Council during
1970 with a view to the creation of an economic and monetary union.
The development of monetary cooperation should be based on the
harmonization of economic policies.
They have agreed that the possibility should be examined of setting up
a European reserve fund, to which a common economic and monetary policy
would lead.

 

15. They have called on the Ministers of Foreign Affairs to study the best
way of realizing progress in the field of political unification with a view to
enlargement. The Ministers will make proposals on this subject before the end
of July 1970.

http://aei.pitt.edu/1002/1/monetary_werner_final.pdf

[bristolboy]

7 minutes ago, sandyf said:

It was all on the table well before the UK joined.

 

8. They have reaffirmed their wish to carry on more rapidly with the
further development necessary to reinforce the Community and its development
into an economic union. They are of the opinion that the process of integration
should end in a Community of stability and growth. With this object in
view they have agreed that on the basis of the memorandum presented by the
Commission on 12 February 1969 and in close collaboration with the
Commission a plan by stages should be drawn up by the Council during
1970 with a view to the creation of an economic and monetary union.
The development of monetary cooperation should be based on the
harmonization of economic policies.
They have agreed that the possibility should be examined of setting up
a European reserve fund, to which a common economic and monetary policy
would lead.

 

15. They have called on the Ministers of Foreign Affairs to study the best
way of realizing progress in the field of political unification with a view to
enlargement. The Ministers will make proposals on this subject before the end
of July 1970.

http://aei.pitt.edu/1002/1/monetary_werner_final.pdf

What a lot of nothing. They went ahead and did a monetary union without a fiscal union. Without a common budget, monetary union is nuts.

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Absolutely nothing to do with what I think, it is what the people of central Europe wanted.

You should realise that when people want something rational argument does not come into it, one way or another a common currency was going to come about.

I don't know about what the people of central europe wanted and I don't know what data you have to support your claim. What I do know is that the only 2 nations in which voters got to vote on the Euro rejected it.

Euro[edit]

Denmark and the United Kingdom received opt-outs from the Maastricht Treaty and do not have to join the euro unless they choose to do so; Sweden has not received an opt-out, yet deliberately does not live up to the requirements for joining for now. Two referendums have been held on the issue up to now, both of which rejected accession.

•  Denmark — Danish euro referendum, 2000, 28 September 2000, 53.2% against, turnout 87.6%
•  Sweden — Swedish euro referendum, 2003, 14 September 2003, 55.9% against, turnout 82.6%
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_European_Union

[3 minus 2]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Not nonsense at all. All true and just. The shame belongs to the EU and its deceitfulness. So there. 

 

Off for happy hour. Will check for shocked replies in the morning.   

Yeah rather than hit the bottle.. a little bit of research into understanding how the ec works might be of benefit..rather than spouting ill informed ignorant nonsence no doubts fed by the daily express and daily mail   ITS  DEMOCRATIC AND EVERY COUNTRY has a say according ie vote more or less to reflect  its   pop' there is NO MORE BULLYING than in any other elected body .. ro think so is just plainly wrong and the unelected body your no doubt referring to as corrupt are civil servants..  just like ours .. they carry out what the elected yes ELECTED body pass

Voting in favour of leaving i, att, i sort of could understand .. Abso amazin leave campaign .. however still thinking its a good idea .. is  truly mammothly STUPID

 

 

 

 

 

[billd766]

8 hours ago, stephenterry said:

Well Blld, you come across as a reasonable person, and at least you have your own opinion, unlike several others who prefer flaming and trolling. And will do so to this post by cherry-picking sentences and taking it out of context in contravention to Forum rule 16. That's a given.

 

You  maybe surprised to learn, Blld, that you were lied to by the leavers camp in this 2016 referendum, as per the red bus and NHS claim, amongst other blue sky rhetoric by Johnson and Gove, and Fox who has gone quiet since he realised trade deals don't just happen. Very good campaigning but totally misleading. I understand, though, the desperate shortage of funding for the NHS has galvanised the PM to rob her magic tree - and just maybe any fortuitous slice of EU payment savings or defence spending could be diverted to keeping the NHS from disintegrating.

 

You must  also realise that trying to unravel over 40 years of the UK being immersed in the EU - even if you call it EU mismanagement which is also debatable as 80% of the EU budget is (mis)managed by the member countries - is an impossible 'short to medium term' project for any government to undertake.  That is clear from the current disaster about to happen - and it will be a disaster.

 

IMO, experience, to a degree, comes with age as one learns not to repeat the same mistakes that is called life. If you or I live long enough we will both realise that Brexit was a huge mistake for which the younger generation will need to finance. As far as that younger generation goes, unlike those that experienced lack of alternative information (your statement) in the 70's, their world does have access to the internet, where information is available to all. That's why after the summer exams whole swathes of young eligible voters will be canvassing across the UK for the government to change course on Brexit. Because they consider it's not the best for Britain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your comments.

 

It may surprise you to learn that BOTH sides lied in the Brexit campaign and it may further surprise you to learn that I, and many older people were not taken in by the claims of either side. We used our age and experience to sift through the the information available at the time on the internet, something that was simply not available back in 1974/75. Then there were very few computers for the general public and no internet so we relied on newspapers radio and TV and of course on real life.

 

I realise that joining the EEC was a good idea but when it morphed into the EU is when it got beyond a joke. I am more fortunate than you as I have had 2 referendums to cast my vote and and I knew back in 1975 I was right in my vote to join the EEC.

 

However over the ensuing 40 years I came to the conclusion that whilst the EEC was a good idea the EU was not. One of the few things that I am grateful to the Tory party and David Cameron for was the opportunity to change my vote to that of leave.

 

There are far too many reasons for me to list here and none of them are/were political and I totally agree with you that Theresa May and the current crop of ministers and MPs are about as much use as a chocolate teapot I am afraid that unless there is a rebellion on the Tory party and a new pro Brexit government is installed, this buggers muddle that she calls Brexit can only get worse.

 

What worries me more is that if she calls a general election and Labour get in, what you see now will be perfection compared to what will come. 

 

I have lived under Labour governments going back to Harold Wilson from 1964 to 1970, Wilson again 1974 to 1976, James Callaghan 1976 to 79, Tony Blair from 1997 to 2007, Gordon Brown from 2007 to 2010. Many of their ministers were really smart people but their policies were not always that good.

 

The old, new, new new and the current lot under Jeremy Corbyn quite frankly scare the sh1t out of me and they are the worst alternative that I can see for the UK and the future, Brexit or no Brexit.

 

quote from your post.

 

"IMO, experience, to a degree, comes with age as one learns not to repeat the same mistakes that is called life. If you or I live long enough we will both realise that Brexit was a huge mistake for which the younger generation will need to finance."

 

Try to remember that all of us oldies were young once and we have gone through what you are going through now. I have learned and paid for my mistake for over 40 years which is why I want to be away completely from the EU so that my son and grandchildren will not have to pay themselves.

[vogie]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Like walking off a cliff.

Some would say pushed of a cliff.

[tomacht8]

In the EU certainly not everything that shines, is gold. No doubt.
But Russia and China have an interest in a weak EU.
Now comes the orange Clown on top.
The UK should think twice about where it wants to stand geopolitical.



 

[3 minus 2]

15 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

In the EU certainly not everything that shines, is gold. No doubt.
But Russia and China have an interest in a weak EU.
Now comes the orange Clown on top.
The UK should think twice about where it wants to stand geopolitical.



 

And the chances of them letting  us improve on the trade deal that the eu negotiated .. is really gonna happen... NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS !!

[tomacht8]

The UK should think again. At the moment, massive movements within the EU are to be seen to solve the question of economic refugees from Africa and the Near East. Italy, Austria, Bavaria, Hungary, Poland, Greece want clear external borders. If the Uk would actively support within the EU, it would be good.
The French are still a bit unclear, but all the Algerians, Moroccans and Tunisians immigration is too much for many French people. For the majority of Europeans, it is clear that they can not import the poverty and abundance of all of Africa without jeopardizing social networks and culture. Bringing all the blame on the EU does not help. The large numbers of immigrants are not only the EU citizens but mainly from former colonial countries. Looking at the statistics of the past 10 years, these are mainly migrants into the UK from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Jamaica.
The only Brexit argument I can support is that the EU is a slow and cumbersome bunch.
The only way in the global Competition over resources and wealth, to survive as an European, is a strong and united EU.
Strong external borders of the EU, and peaceful rapprochement and cooperation with Russia should pave the way for the next decade. Cooperation with the US currently brings nothing. Resigned from the Paris Climate Agreement, quitting Iran and an orange clown who deducts his show without foundation. 

[Spidey]

16 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

The large numbers of immigrants are not only the EU citizens but mainly from former colonial countries. Looking at the statistics of the past 10 years, these are mainly migrants into the UK from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Jamaica.

And this won't change with exit from the EU. Which would you prefer, a Polish family who come here to work and make a valuable contribution to the British economy or a family from South Asia, determined to do as little as possible and bleed the welfare state dry. That's apart from being potential terrorists and paedophile gang members.

[3 minus 2]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Thank you for your comments.

 

It may surprise you to learn that BOTH sides lied in the Brexit campaign and it may further surprise you to learn that I, and many older people were not taken in by the claims of either side. We used our age and experience to sift through the the information available at the time on the internet, something that was simply not available back in 1974/75. Then there were very few computers for the general public and no internet so we relied on newspapers radio and TV and of course on real life.

 

I realise that joining the EEC was a good idea but when it morphed into the EU is when it got beyond a joke. I am more fortunate than you as I have had 2 referendums to cast my vote and and I knew back in 1975 I was right in my vote to join the EEC.

 

However over the ensuing 40 years I came to the conclusion that whilst the EEC was a good idea the EU was not. One of the few things that I am grateful to the Tory party and David Cameron for was the opportunity to change my vote to that of leave.

 

There are far too many reasons for me to list here and none of them are/were political and I totally agree with you that Theresa May and the current crop of ministers and MPs are about as much use as a chocolate teapot I am afraid that unless there is a rebellion on the Tory party and a new pro Brexit government is installed, this buggers muddle that she calls Brexit can only get worse.

 

What worries me more is that if she calls a general election and Labour get in, what you see now will be perfection compared to what will come. 

 

I have lived under Labour governments going back to Harold Wilson from 1964 to 1970, Wilson again 1974 to 1976, James Callaghan 1976 to 79, Tony Blair from 1997 to 2007, Gordon Brown from 2007 to 2010. Many of their ministers were really smart people but their policies were not always that good.

 

The old, new, new new and the current lot under Jeremy Corbyn quite frankly scare the sh1t out of me and they are the worst alternative that I can see for the UK and the future, Brexit or no Brexit.

 

quote from your post.

 

"IMO, experience, to a degree, comes with age as one learns not to repeat the same mistakes that is called life. If you or I live long enough we will both realise that Brexit was a huge mistake for which the younger generation will need to finance."

 

Try to remember that all of us oldies were young once and we have gone through what you are going through now. I have learned and paid for my mistake for over 40 years which is why I want to be away completely from the EU so that my son and grandchildren will not have to pay themselves.

As an  'oldie' i'm wondering <deleted> your on about.. the last forty years have been without a doubt THE best economicaly for ALL in the uk education, infastructure all are unrecognisable from pre ec days

.lest you forget .. i cant, the uk was a barren shit hole still not recovered in ANY form from the second world war shops often ran out of goods, jobs became dificult to find .. many doin what the eastern europeans are doin now..but over to germany. 

 

Im NO FAN of large corps  and gut reaction is to tell the to <deleted> off .. however away from gut reaction there ARE NO POSITIVES  from leaving the ec.. its  like a club votin to leav the prem to play in the championship..just plain stupid.

..

 

[aright]

41 minutes ago, 3 minus 2 said:

As an  'oldie' i'm wondering <deleted> your on about.. the last forty years have been without a doubt THE best economicaly for ALL in the uk education, infastructure all are unrecognisable from pre ec days

.lest you forget .. i cant, the uk was a barren shit hole still not recovered in ANY form from the second world war shops often ran out of goods, jobs became dificult to find .. many doin what the eastern europeans are doin now..but over to germany. 

 

Im NO FAN of large corps  and gut reaction is to tell the to <deleted> off .. however away from gut reaction there ARE NO POSITIVES  from leaving the ec.. its  like a club votin to leav the prem to play in the championship..just plain stupid.

..

 

the last forty years have been without a doubt THE best economicaly for ALL in the uk education, infastructure all are unrecognisable from pre ec days.lest you forget

 

A good indicator of progression in any community, country or the world are statistics on life expectancy imo, because it is so dependant on progress in the economy, health care, diet, welfare, education. technology etc. 

In 1960 life expectancy in Africa was 39 years of age. In 2020 it is expected to be 58

The world average  was 1960---48 years ,    2020---69 years

Developed regions  were 1960---66years,     2020---79 years.

Improvements in the quality of life worldwide, inside and outside the EU, have been significant and I can see no reason for your assertion that improvements in the UK are as a result of membership of the EU. You might equally argue that Australia and New Zealand have done particularly well in the last 40 years because they are not in the EU.

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, 3 minus 2 said:

As an  'oldie' i'm wondering <deleted> your on about.. the last forty years have been without a doubt THE best economicaly for ALL in the uk education, infastructure all are unrecognisable from pre ec days

.lest you forget .. i cant, the uk was a barren shit hole still not recovered in ANY form from the second world war shops often ran out of goods, jobs became dificult to find .. many doin what the eastern europeans are doin now..but over to germany. 

 

Im NO FAN of large corps  and gut reaction is to tell the to <deleted> off .. however away from gut reaction there ARE NO POSITIVES  from leaving the ec.. its  like a club votin to leav the prem to play in the championship..just plain stupid.

..

 

As someone who has returned to live in the U.K after 20 yrs in Thailand, I can tell you that the working conditions for those at the lower end of the ladder, have certainly not improved. What with the contracts that most of this group of people are abliged to agree to, and the influx of mass immigration from Eastern Europe. It’s no wander there is an ever increasing gap between those at the top and those at the bottom. But why should you be concerned, that’s not what selfish people do. 

 

[bristolboy]

4 hours ago, vogie said:

Some would say pushed of a cliff.

Those who never take responsibility for their own actions.

[bristolboy]

5 minutes ago, nontabury said:

As someone who has returned to live in the U.K after 20 yrs in Thailand, I can tell you that the working conditions for those at the lower end of the ladder, have certainly not improved. What with the contracts that most of this group of people are abliged to agree to, and the influx of mass immigration from Eastern Europe. It’s no wander there is an ever increasing gap between those at the top and those at the bottom. But why should you be concerned, that’s not what selfish people do. 

 

It seems you're blaming the EU for the misdeeds of the conservatives. The middle class is alive and well in other EU states. 

[tomacht8]

23 minutes ago, nontabury said:

As someone who has returned to live in the U.K after 20 yrs in Thailand, I can tell you that the working conditions for those at the lower end of the ladder, have certainly not improved. What with the contracts that most of this group of people are abliged to agree to, and the influx of mass immigration from Eastern Europe. It’s no wander there is an ever increasing gap between those at the top and those at the bottom. But why should you be concerned, that’s not what selfish people do. 

 

There is a glaring difference between the top and the bottom.
At the Gemini coefficient, the UK performs poorly in a European comparison.
It is not the EU's fault how the income is distributed within the UK.

The argument that Polish immigrants are pushing wages is nonsense.
The Poles, too, have to pay their rents, taxes and food prices, which are quite high in the UK because of the high taxes for ordinary earners.
Would welcome if initially the dissatisfied (Brexit) forces would clear their own stable first, if you are looking up from a lower income position.

Edited July 14, 2018 by tomacht8

[nontabury]

11 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

There is a glaring difference between the top and the bottom.
At the Gemini coefficient, the UK performs poorly in a European comparison.
It is not the EU's fault how the income is distributed within the UK.

The argument that Polish immigrants are pushing wages is nonsense.
The Poles, too, have to pay their rents, taxes and food prices, which are quite high in the UK because of the high taxes for ordinary earners.
Would welcome if initially the dissatisfied (Brexit) forces would clear their own stable first, if you are looking up from a lower income position.

As I’ve mention already on similar threads, many of the east Europeans work until the hit the tax band,presently £11,850 and then return to their own country, many bring their children to this country, claiming child benefits and child tax credits, while enrolling their children in British schools, where the teachers have to put extra effort in teaching these children at the expense of British children.

These are just a couple of points that I could quickly come to mind,but there are many,many more.

[tomacht8]

2 minutes ago, nontabury said:

As I’ve mention already on similar threads, many of the east Europeans work until the hit the tax band,presently £11,850 and then return to their own country, many bring their children to this country, claiming child benefits and child tax credits, while enrolling their children in British schools, where the teachers have to put extra effort in teaching these children at the expense of British children.

These are just a couple of points that I could quickly come to mind,but there are many,many more.

Sure, the people from the poorer EU countries work too. And their wages are not that exorbitant.
The cheapest, renewable resource in this world is human Labor.
Taxing this resource high, makes no sense.
The task of the government is to make this cheap raw material more valuable through education.
Here, a mechanism can be introduced that predicts the cost of education in the future.
I would also like to see more than 100,000 Filipino and Thailand nurses working in the health care system as we import 100,000 unmarried Moroccan, Algerian or Tunisian young men into our social System.

[aright]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

It seems you're blaming the EU for the misdeeds of the conservatives. The middle class is alive and well in other EU states. 

The middle class is alive and well in other EU states.

Why do you say that? The middle class is essential for the stability of European democracies and welfare systems and its erosion generates increasing unrest at the political and social level as evidenced by the popularity of extreme right wing parties ……..Italy, a good example.

[3 minus 2]

3 hours ago, nontabury said:

As someone who has returned to live in the U.K after 20 yrs in Thailand, I can tell you that the working conditions for those at the lower end of the ladder, have certainly not improved. What with the contracts that most of this group of people are abliged to agree to, and the influx of mass immigration from Eastern Europe. It’s no wander there is an ever increasing gap between those at the top and those at the bottom. But why should you be concerned, that’s not what selfish people do. 

 

And you think not being in the eu will help those at the bottom end.. your OFF YOUR <deleted> MEDS .. they are exactly those that will and already have been stuffed.. sterlin weakens cos of brexit  HIGHER food prices the oil prices  petrol goes .up ALL costs go up .and super markets are takin double advantage   55% of our food is imported .. you think zero hr contracts  are bad... wait until were out of the ec Havin to compète with emergin nations   you know that dont you being so in touch !!

[bristolboy]

4 hours ago, aright said:

The middle class is alive and well in other EU states.

Why do you say that? The middle class is essential for the stability of European democracies and welfare systems and its erosion generates increasing unrest at the political and social level as evidenced by the popularity of extreme right wing parties ……..Italy, a good example.

France, Germany, The Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland

All these nations are as developed as the UK economy and have recently honest governance. But the labor laws and tax laws in those nations help protect the poor and working classes. Unlike the situation in the UK.

[vogie]

6 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Those who never take responsibility for their own actions.

Why are you bringing Juncker into this.

You are very good at criticising everything and everybody. I think we all realise that brexit is going to happen one way or another, maybe we both agree that the current PM is very weak. I'm guessing you are not a true blue, so who would be your ideal team of negotiators.

 

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

France, Germany, The Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland

All these nations are as developed as the UK economy and have recently honest governance. But the labor laws and tax laws in those nations help protect the poor and working classes. Unlike the situation in the UK.

"recently" was meant to be "reasonably"

[bristolboy]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

Why are you bringing Juncker into this.

You are very good at criticising everything and everybody. I think we all realise that brexit is going to happen one way or another, maybe we both agree that the current PM is very weak. I'm guessing you are not a true blue, so who would be your ideal team of negotiators.

 

The UK has walked off a cliff and is now in freefall. So who's the negotiator who can help them out of this situation? Paging Jesus Christ.

[bristolboy]

It's especially endearing to see Brexiteers claim that their cause is for an independent Britain and then grovel to Donald Trump, who is trying to break apart the western alliance and a pathological liar, in order to secure a more favorable trade treat with the USA. As though there were any serious current obstacles to trade with the USA. Rue Britannia!

[Spidey]

16 minutes ago, vogie said:

Why are you bringing Juncker into this.

You are very good at criticising everything and everybody. I think we all realise that brexit is going to happen one way or another, maybe we both agree that the current PM is very weak. I'm guessing you are not a true blue, so who would be your ideal team of negotiators.

 

My choice would be Lord Sugar, Roy Keane and Peter Kaye.

[aright]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

France, Germany, The Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland

All these nations are as developed as the UK economy and have recently honest governance. But the labor laws and tax laws in those nations help protect the poor and working classes. Unlike the situation in the UK.

My response was more toward the recent change in middle class politics as a result of dissatisfaction resulting in an increase in right wingism.. The Alternative for Germany, the National Front in France, the Netherlands Party for Freedom, the Sweden Democrats, the Austria Freedom Party etc.

 

On the subject of Labor Laws they are governed by the EU. EU Labor Law stipulates that all EU workers have stipulated rights related to health and safety, equal opportunities, protection against discrimination, working hours, employment of young people etc  so I don't know why you would say the working class in France, Germany etc are better protected than those in the UK.

 

"The UK joined the EU in 1973. Since the mid-1970s, the European Union has played an important role in protecting working people from exploitation and combating discrimination, but it was not until the 1986 Single European Act that there was a significant increase in the volume of health and safety Directives. That Act aimed to facilitate the free movement of workers within a single market, in particular through the new Article 118a. It abolished national vetoes in a host of areas relating to the single market, increased the legislative powers of the European parliament and made the first commitment by member states to create a "European Union". 

 

Taxes are of course controlled by the individual governments and because there are so many variants in the tax/income/benefits equation it's difficult to draw comparisons. I do know from the people I have employed over many years they are far more concerned with the money they earn than the tax they pay. 

[bristolboy]

Just now, aright said:

My response was more toward the recent change in middle class politics as a result of dissatisfaction resulting in an increase in right wingism.. The Alternative for Germany, the National Front in France, the Netherlands Party for Freedom, the Sweden Democrats, the Austria Freedom Party etc.

 

On the subject of Labor Laws they are governed by the EU. EU Labor Law stipulates that all EU workers have stipulated rights related to health and safety, equal opportunities, protection against discrimination, working hours, employment of young people etc  so I don't know why you would say the working class in France, Germany etc are better protected than those in the UK.

 

"The UK joined the EU in 1973. Since the mid-1970s, the European Union has played an important role in protecting working people from exploitation and combating discrimination, but it was not until the 1986 Single European Act that there was a significant increase in the volume of health and safety Directives. That Act aimed to facilitate the free movement of workers within a single market, in particular through the new Article 118a. It abolished national vetoes in a host of areas relating to the single market, increased the legislative powers of the European parliament and made the first commitment by member states to create a "European Union". 

 

Taxes are of course controlled by the individual governments and because there are so many variants in the tax/income/benefits equation it's difficult to draw comparisons. I do know from the people I have employed over many years they are far more concerned with the money they earn than the tax they pay. 

How about not slashing health services, providing better social services like childcare and invalid care, better public transport, government cooperation with unions, more stringent regulation of zero hour contracts, a lot less privatization.

But apart from that, you do have a point.

[aright]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

How about not slashing health services, providing better social services like childcare and invalid care, better public transport, government cooperation with unions, more stringent regulation of zero hour contracts, a lot less privatization.

But apart from that, you do have a point.

Easily fixed! Vote Corbyn at the next election. He is promising all those things.

[bristolboy]

Just now, aright said:

Easily fixed! Vote Corbyn at the next election. He is promising all those things.

Those things are one a lot more easily with a strong economy. He will definitely be hampered. Still, let's hope he begins by raising taxes on the rich at least back to the level they were before the great recession. And puts a stop to the tax avoidance schemes so beloved by JRM.