Put your cards on the table, EU makes last Brexit call to Britain

[tebee]

51 minutes ago, tebee said:

And our own government has just legistated to make its own proposed policy on Brexit illegal !

 

Just when you think things can't get any more farcical, they do.... 

 

23 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

And up you pop ?

 

Now, tell us all exactly what you mean by

 

Your explanation should be side splitting ??

ERG VAT amendment Government was accepted, won by 3 votes.

- No Common VAT area
- No VAT alignment means potentially no Irish backstop
- so endangers Withdrawal Agreement, and thus transition and beaks GFA

 - If govt is clear it is leaving the EU VAT regime, there will be checks at the border.

 - Frictionless trade part of her own Chequers is now dead.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2018 by tebee

[CG1 Blue]

54 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

FACT: The Tories plan post Brexit ‘deregulation’ that will remove protections for ordinary working put in place by the EU.

Interesting. Can you show us proof of this fact please? Presumably Theresa May as PM and leader of the Tories has said this - or perhaps you read it in the Tory manifesto?

 

Or have you just been brainwashed by project fear?

[The Renegade]

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

ERG VAT amendment Government was accepted, won by 3 votes.

- No Common VAT area
- No VAT alignment means potentially no Irish backstop
- so endangers Withdrawal Agreement, and thus transition and beaks GFA

 - If govt is clear it is leaving the EU VAT regime, there will be checks at the border.

 - Frictionless trade part of her own Chequers is now dead.

tebee, let me remind you of what you said

 

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

And our own government has just legistated to make its own proposed policy on Brexit illegal !

The Government never legislated anything yesterday ??

 

A Bill ( Customs Bill ) was introduced to Parliament, it was debated and various amendments were introduced, which were accepted by the Government.

 

The Bill and subsequent amendments will now be passed to the House of Lords, where it will be discussed again, more amendments may be added and then it will be passed back to the House of Commons.

 

Only then can it be passed into LAW.

 

Yesterday, the UK Government legislated nothing.

 

Your lack of knowledge on how the UK Parliamentary system works is embarrassing.

[The Renegade]

18 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Interesting. Can you show us proof of this fact please?

Like most remainers - Opinion suddenly, without anything to back it up, becomes fact.

 

 

 

 

[sandyf]

"a plan by stages should be drawn up by the Council during 1970 with a view to the creation of an economic and monetary union."

"They have called on the Ministers of Foreign Affairs to study the best way of realizing progress in the field of political unification with a view to
enlargement. "

http://aei.pitt.edu/1002/1/monetary_werner_final.pdf

 

Statements made following the meeting at the Hague in Dec 69. People can deny that they were never made or that Ted Heath was not aware of them as much as they like, but they are a matter of public record and indicate quite clearly where the "Community" was heading.

The majority of the general public are not particularly well versed on the mechanics of political arrangements and will look to those closer to the action for guidance. It is a bit immaterial whether a politician is right or wrong, if what is said is what is wanted to be heard then there is this tendency to believe. It happened back then and again in 2016 and casts serious doubts on the validity of the government position.

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Really, they knew full well that one day there would be a United States of Europe? This is nonsense. There was no legal mechanism voted on that could impose such a vision or any date set for its realization. It was just a general statement of aspirations.  And there still are no such mechanisms or dates today. And no real will to either. I can't imagine the Germans accepting budget deficits. And we know that for a fact that the UK was able to opt out of the common currency. And Poland, which promised to adopt the Euro one day, still has yet to do so and has no plans to. And there is no mechanism for forcing Poland's hand. 

Those aspirational sentiments carry as much legal force as does a greeting card.

You mean like the brexit referendum.

 

[The Renegade]

How many people had TV's in 1969 ?

 

Where were people to go to view these '' Public Records '' in 1969 ?

 

I will give you this to read again

 

http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm

 

Staying in the Common Market - Nothing, nada, zilch about morphing into the current EU.

 

And if that information should have been available anywhere, it should have been in the leaflet sent to every household prior to the Referendum.

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

Interesting. Can you show us proof of this fact please? Presumably Theresa May as PM and leader of the Tories has said this - or perhaps you read it in the Tory manifesto?

 

Or have you just been brainwashed by project fear?

11 Tory Brexiteers Opposed To The Working Time Directive

Conservatives have long campaigned against the 48-hour working week rule

The Government has come under fire for suggestions it wants to scrap the Working Time Directive, the EU rule which restricts the working week to 48 hours and protects other employment rights.

Stories in the Sunday newspapers signalled getting rid of the Brussels edict that trade unions say protect everything from holidays to rest breaks would be one of the benefits of quitting the EU.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/working-time-directive_uk_5a38f926e4b0860bf4aaee7f?guccounter=1

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, bristolboy said:

The UK can unilaterally waive tariffs it could impose if it so chooses. It doesn't need a treaty to do that. And in some cases WTO rules that come into effect would allow only for much lower tariffs than currently exist. 

What rules and tariffs would that be when currently there isn't any. How can tariffs be lower if they copy the existing EU schedules?

 

The UK is a member of the WTO in its own right. But various procedures are needed to re-establish our autonomy from the rest of the EU. In particular, we have to agree on “schedules” for tariffs on goods. The government has stated that in the short term it would simply replicate the schedules of the EU to smooth our transition. There are some more problematic areas, such as agreeing on the division of quotas for goods where the EU currently has agreed quotas at EU level. 

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/no-deal-the-wto-option/

[tebee]

35 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

tebee, let me remind you of what you said

 

The Government never legislated anything yesterday ??

 

A Bill ( Customs Bill ) was introduced to Parliament, it was debated and various amendments were introduced, which were accepted by the Government.

 

The Bill and subsequent amendments will now be passed to the House of Lords, where it will be discussed again, more amendments may be added and then it will be passed back to the House of Commons.

 

Only then can it be passed into LAW.

 

Yesterday, the UK Government legislated nothing.

 

Your lack of knowledge on how the UK Parliamentary system works is embarrassing.

To legislate is the act of producing laws, not just implementing them, so I disagree with your interpretation.

 

But as the government didn't oppose this presumably it is now government policy  and they will finish enacting it in due course, so your hair splitting  is irrelevant.  

[bristolboy]

12 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You mean like the brexit referendum.

 

Insofar as legal force goes yes. But people who voted for Brexit voted for something that they wanted to happen. It was the issue. Whereas in 1975 the issue was joining the EEC. The other stuff was not central to the vote and there was no urgency or imminence about it. And there still isn't.

[CG1 Blue]

8 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

50 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Interesting. Can you show us proof of this fact please? Presumably Theresa May as PM and leader of the Tories has said this - or perhaps you read it in the Tory manifesto?

 

Or have you just been brainwashed by project fear?

11 Tory Brexiteers Opposed To The Working Time Directive

Conservatives have long campaigned against the 48-hour working week rule

The Government has come under fire for suggestions it wants to scrap the Working Time Directive, the EU rule which restricts the working week to 48 hours and protects other employment rights.

Stories in the Sunday newspapers signalled getting rid of the Brussels edict that trade unions say protect everything from holidays to rest breaks would be one of the benefits of quitting the EU.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/working-time-directive_uk_5a38f926e4b0860bf4aaee7f?guccounter=1

I can't open that link, but I'm not sure it proves a fact - I assume it's just conjecture?

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, tebee said:

They have no reasons left, they just repeat the mantras "sovereignty" and "will of the people" and hope their deity will give them what they want, even though they have no understanding of why they desire it.

 

The will of the people. Well what ever transpires, this is irrelevant to your way of thinking. Let’s go one step further, stop having elections, leave everything in the hands of the establishment “Oh” sorry that’s what is happening now. 

A repeat of the farce that took place in the Irish Republic, when they democratically voted against the Lisbon treaty. Off course they did’t repeat that mistake for the Maastricht treaty, as the establishment saw fit, not to allow the people a vote.The referendum was cancelled, the same happened in the Czech Republic, Denmark, Poland and Portugal. In France they did allow a vote on this so called treaty, and the vote went against 55%. Ignored.

Is democracy in Europe now an illusion, this is what many thinking people,have now understandably concluded.

 

 

[sandyf]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

Insofar as legal force goes yes. But people who voted for Brexit voted for something that they wanted to happen. It was the issue. Whereas in 1975 the issue was joining the EEC. The other stuff was not central to the vote and there was no urgency or imminence about it. And there still isn't.

It is my understanding that the UK joined the EEC on 1st Jan 1973 but no doubt you will come up with something else.

 

Do you really think the UK joined the EEC without the government taking their plans for the future into consideration. Like buying a house on the basis the survey problems may not come to anything.

[The Renegade]

13 minutes ago, tebee said:

To legislate is the act of producing laws, not just implementing them, so I disagree with your interpretation.

 

But as the government didn't oppose this presumably it is now government policy  and they will finish enacting it in due course, so your hair splitting  is irrelevant.  

And NO Law has been produced ?? Government Policy does not need to become Law either ??

 

It is a proposed Government policy, and will not become Government Policy until it has been to the House of Lords and then comes back to Parliament.

 

Try reading Faisal's tweet again

 

Quote

Government passes Rees Mogg amendment making it illegal for HMRC to apply Governments own White Paper FCA without reciprocal tariff collection by the EU.

Only makes it illegal for HMRC to collect tariffs on behalf of the EU if the EU are not willing to do likewise.

 

Which is pretty sensible - Unless you are a remainer and struggle to read English, are totally loved up with the EU and think that the EU should be able to walk all over the UK.

Edited July 17, 2018 by The Renegade

[stephenterry]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

I don't think you have a clear idea of what the WTO does. It would have absolutely no say in this.

I think you don't. What should happen is most likely not the case, in reality - as is most things in life. Just wait and see if the UK has to resort to accept WTO rules, which is one of the worst outcomes of Brexit according to many economic editorials including the FT and similar.

 

Please do not bother to respond to this post, as there are more important issues to discuss on Brexit - the most recent and alarming being a lack of any plan on both sides of the Channel to prevent chaos erupting at both Calais and Dover. A two-minute delay, according to the Calais spokesman could result in a 45 kilo tailback. Now that's a reality in the making, BB,  unless both the UK and France by-pass the EU regulations and open up a bilateral negotiation.  

[The Renegade]

15 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I can't open that link, but I'm not sure it proves a fact - I assume it's just conjecture?

Not sure why people keep posting stuff about The Working Time Directive.

 

You can opt out of the WTD and in many cases an offer of Employment will be subject to you opting out of the WTD and will be stipulated in the Contract of Employment.

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, sandyf said:

A statement from the heads of government may be nothing to you but it was what Edward Heath agreed to and what the people voted for in 1975.

 

As one of those who voted to join the EEC in the seventies, I now realise that I was completely conned, into thinking we were joining a trading block. However the politicians and the Establishment then decided that it must be changed into an overbearing political so called Union. Unfortunately for them, the thinking people became more aware of what was intended, due to being better informed, mainly due to the the mass information available over the internet, rather than solely relying on the Now outmoded established media.

 As a matter of interest Sandy, what are your thoughts on the EEC as against the E.U. Pros and cons,would be a good starting point.

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

 unless both the UK and France by-pass the EU regulations and open up a bilateral negotiation.  

Which is exactly what today's chimp's tea party in the House of Commons is all about.

 

Yesterday it was the Customs Bill

 

Today it is the Trade Bill

 

Quote

Tuesday’s vote will be on the trade bill, which is focused on converting trade deals between the EU and third countries into bilateral deals with Britain. It is a technical bill and was not originally intended to define new trade policy.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu/after-reprieve-britains-may-faces-brexit-battle-in-parliament-on-trade-idUSKBN1K70UN?il=0

 

 

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, stephenterry said:

DD - which ever way you look at it, leaving the EU will also result in higher prices for the consumer, for the same reasons as joining, and the impact of inflation and scarcity of goods. I cannot imagine any scenario when prices will fall as a result of Brexit - oh, maybe fish.  

 

 

 

We will be able to make trading agreements with many countries,regarding a full range of goods,especially food. This will result in even lower food cost, allthough I’m sure the inefficient French farmers will not be so happy.

[melvinmelvin]

this brexit stuff is hardly about the price of s&k pie or marmite - but about implementing the outcome of the referendum

 

[bristolboy]

37 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I can't open that link, but I'm not sure it proves a fact - I assume it's just conjecture?

It's not conjecture about the 11 Brexiteers opposing it. And it's not conjecture that May refused to say that she would protect the directive.

[stephenterry]

1 minute ago, nontabury said:

 

We will be able to make trading agreements with many countries,regarding a full range of goods,especially food. This will result in even lower food cost, allthough I’m sure the inefficient French farmers will not be so happy.

Maybe we can, but how long will that take to implement? And would we be held over a barrel, regarding cost? Probably, as over 90% of our goods come from the EU. Already the UK government is stocking up on (unhealthy) processed foods, which doesn't inspire any confidence that it will be 'alright on the night', does it?

 

As I have been at pains today to emphasise - and becoming a pain with it - what should happen is not necessarily what will happen, in reality. Not without a cost, at the very least.

 

If I was a French farmer, I'd be delighted to offer starving British my inefficient produce - ha, ha.

 

 

 

 

[stephenterry]

7 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

this brexit stuff is hardly about the price of s&k pie or marmite - but about implementing the outcome of the referendum

 

You should read the other 1600+ posts to gain a better understanding of the issues arising from Brexit, before commenting on what could be post of the day. 

[melvinmelvin]

13 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

You should read the other 1600+ posts to gain a better understanding of the issues arising from Brexit, before commenting on what could be post of the day. 

yawn!!

 

I actually think I have a pretty good understanding of brexit related issues, far better than most people on the foggy islands,

 

I still maintain that brexit/no brexit is not about higher or lower food prices or cost of living for that sake

 

 

[stephenterry]

20 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

yawn!!

 

I actually think I have a pretty good understanding of brexit related issues, far better than most people on the foggy islands,

 

I still maintain that brexit/no brexit is not about higher or lower food prices or cost of living for that sake

 

 

Well, to a lot of people on the breadline, it's an important factor - and probably their main concern. Maslow pyramid.of needs would explain. 

[bristolboy]

21 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Well, to a lot of people on the breadline, it's an important factor - and probably their main concern. Maslow pyramid.of needs would explain. 

And are most Britons on the breadline? Were most people who voted for Brexit on the breadline?

[tomacht8]

EU and Japan seal their largest trade agreement to date.
Stronger growth, new jobs, more freedom: Japan and Europe have signed a new trade Agreement.
This agreement will create an open trade zone covering nearly a third of the world's GDP.

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/world/1505058/eu-japan-to-sign-massive-trade-deal-as-us-puts-up-barriers#cxrecs_s

 

[stephenterry]

2 hours ago, bristolboy said:

And are most Britons on the breadline? Were most people who voted for Brexit on the breadline?

It might surprise you, but far north of the Watford gap, are counties where unemployment reigned. People living on benefits who voted leave because it was better than their current situation, and all because successive UK governments let British industry die which put them out of work with no prospects.

 

You really ought to keep up, BB, with the realities of life. Ever been out of work? You'll vote for anything that could change your miserable existence. And that's being polite. 

[stephenterry]

2 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

EU and Japan seal their largest trade agreement to date.
Stronger growth, new jobs, more freedom: Japan and Europe have signed a new trade Agreement.
This agreement will create an open trade zone covering nearly a third of the world's GDP.

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/world/1505058/eu-japan-to-sign-massive-trade-deal-as-us-puts-up-barriers#cxrecs_s

 

But Betfreders won't budge from their jaundiced view that the UK would be better off outside the EU.