Put your cards on the table, EU makes last Brexit call to Britain

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, bartender100 said:

We have the walk away and give them nothing card.

Yes there is the cut off your nose to spite your face option.

Will do a great deal for UK credibility. Who, other than those out to take advantage, will want to negotiate with a country that has just proved to be incapable of negotiation.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, sandyf said:

Yes there is the cut off your nose to spite your face option.

Will do a great deal for UK credibility. Who, other than those out to take advantage, will want to negotiate with a country that has just proved to be incapable of negotiation.

Why do you always put the onus on the UK and not the EU, do you think the EU is capable of negotiating, they want to hurt us, simple as. Never once have I read from the remainers that the EU may be to blame here, or at least share some responsibility, and I guess I never will.

[stephenterry]

1 minute ago, sandyf said:

Yes there is the cut off your nose to spite your face option.

Will do a great deal for UK credibility. Who, other than those out to take advantage, will want to negotiate with a country that has just proved to be incapable of negotiation.

I agree. There are always consequences following any act, and those consequences may not be to the liking of those who committed the act.

 

For example, if the UK parliament agree that it is pointless for the UK to continue negotiations or agree a 'no deal', the government will have to admit that the consequences of this could mean, according to their own published forecasts, that the UK population will be no better off by leaving the EU. 

 

And, I. for one, believe the people will be worse off whatever fudged deal is put together. This belief is based on a collation of potential disasters, that far outweigh any potential benefits.  IMO, leaving the single market and the customs union is not what the voters voted for. 

 

But I could be wrong. And in some ways I hope that I am wrong, because otherwise the younger generation will spend the next decade paying for it, before applying to rejoin the EU.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[whatsupdoc]

9 minutes ago, vogie said:

Why do you always put the onus on the UK and not the EU, do you think the EU is capable of negotiating, they want to hurt us, simple as. Never once have I read from the remainers that the EU may be to blame here, or at least share some responsibility, and I guess I never will.

The EU did not vote for the UK to leave, the UK did. So indeed, the EU doesn't have to negotiate and is not to blame.

And in any negotiations that do take place the EU have to take care of their own interest first. It is not their duty to get the UK a good deal, just to limit the damage.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

The EU did not vote for the UK to leave, the UK did. So indeed, the EU doesn't have to negotiate and is not to blame.

And in any negotiations that do take place the EU have to take care of their own interest first. It is not their duty to get the UK a good deal, just to limit the damage.

"So indeed, the EU doesn't have to negotiate and is not to blame."

 

Well you have just hit the nail on the head, "the EU doesn't have to negotiate" so who in hell is the UK going to negotiate with. If the other side does not want to negotiate there is little option left for the UK.

[whatsupdoc]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

"So indeed, the EU doesn't have to negotiate and is not to blame."

 

Well you have just hit the nail on the head, "the EU doesn't have to negotiate" so who in hell is the UK going to negotiate with. If the other side does not want to negotiate there is little option left for the UK.

There is a clear difference between 'doesn't have to' and 'doesn't want to'. But obviously the EU will protect its own interests first.

[stephenterry]

13 minutes ago, vogie said:

Why do you always put the onus on the UK and not the EU, do you think the EU is capable of negotiating, they want to hurt us, simple as. Never once have I read from the remainers that the EU may be to blame here, or at least share some responsibility, and I guess I never will.

Vogie, it's the UK who wants to leave the EU, not the other way round. And the UK is attempting to strike a leaving deal with the EU, not the other way round. 

 

I'm pretty much sure that the EU will only concede on issues that would have reciprocal benefits to them, and reject those that don't. Wouldn't anyone? That's a rhetorical question, BTW.

 

I surmise, though, that whatever the media says, both the EU and the UK have a middle ground where a political benefit for both sides could be agreed - in other words, a win-win situation that would pacify the 'people'. 

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

There is a clear difference between 'doesn't have to' and 'doesn't want to'. But obviously the EU will protect its own interests first.

My reply to you is if the EU want anything out of this, they are going to 'have' to negotiate, and hopefully the UK will protect its own interests too, but you cannot tell with a remainer running the country. Our only saviour is we have Jacob Rees Mogg keeping her in check.

[whatsupdoc]

9 minutes ago, vogie said:

My reply to you is if the EU want anything out of this, they are going to 'have' to negotiate, and hopefully the UK will protect its own interests too, but you cannot tell with a remainer running the country. Our only saviour is we have Jacob Rees Mogg keeping her in check.

Brexit is always going to be a lose-lose situation. The EU will want to minimise the damage but not everyone in the UK seems to want the same.

[stephenterry]

The one driving force behind seriously loaded, old- Etonian J R-M is to raise his profile to both parliament and the media, (which will profit his emerging markets hedge-fund business), and to eventually become a cabinet minister himself with an eye on the top jobs, which will profit his business even more - which has opened up a fund in Dublin so that he can still deal openly across the EU, when the UK leaves.

 

Whereas and good luck to him, his financial status make him and his family immune from any hardship Brexit could bring - worth thinking about when he gambles away the UK in doing so.  

 

 

[tomacht8]

29 minutes ago, vogie said:

My reply to you is if the EU want anything out of this, they are going to 'have' to negotiate, and hopefully the UK will protect its own interests too, but you cannot tell with a remainer running the country. Our only saviour is we have Jacob Rees Mogg keeping her in check.

Wonder who produced all the hate.
The referendum was almost 50:50.
There must be compromises, from both sides.
Or even more division of society, and in the end civil war or what?

[vogie]

16 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Brexit is always going to be a lose-lose situation. The EU will want to minimise the damage but not everyone in the UK seems to want the same.

Only remainers would share that view, leavers appear to have a more positive approach.

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Wonder who produced all the hate.
The referendum was almost 50:50.
There must be compromises, from both sides.
Or even more division of society, and in the end civil war or what?

"The referendum was almost 50:50." 

 

This years FA cup was almost 1 - 1, but Chelsea beat Man Utd 1 - 0. If you get my drift.

[melvinmelvin]

 

I am a strong believer in negotiations.

 

There is always room for such. And there is always room for getting some sense out of a hopeless situation.

It was said above that UK has now proven that she ain't capable of negotiations, EU was labelled likewise.

I don't agree with that way of lookin' at things - I think the answers are much much simpler - in this case, it

boils down to the personality of the two pack leaders. It has been obvious almost from day 1 that D Davis and

the French guy ain't gonna produce anything useful. Nothing fundamentally wrong with either, but they don't go together.

Just looking at the body language of these two can make you cry.

 

Major mistake of PM TM to hold on to DD. MAJOR mistake.

 

In large scale negotiations there must be some affinity between the pack leaders - otherwise, it doesn't work.

That applies to WTO - applies to Brexit and to nuclear disarmament (god knows how Trump and Kim do it - maybe they share views on hamburgers and basketball, dunno but doubt Kim is a golfer).

 

A positive and comfortable atmosphere is always a must if you want something useful from negotiations. That has been lacking all the way

as far as DD and the French counterpart are concerned.

No positive vibes - no comfort - people are not at ease - no results. In my experience - it is always like that, ALWAYS.

 

 

As far as credibility is concerned,

to me it looks like the UK conservative gov has done plenty to shave off credibility already - what a mess Westminster and D10 have become,

breakdown of talks would just be another wee nail in (whatever)..

 

I don't think there would be a problem with UK negotiations and ability,

the problem is trust. Trade agreements of size are to a large extent based on mutual trust.

Who can trust D10 and Westminster today - a true mess.

 

 

 

BTW, while I still have the floor;

 

Has UK got her act together and presented a "service profile" for/to WTO?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Only remainers would share that view, leavers appear to have a more positive approach.

There was a time when there was a popular belief that if you had a positive attitude about your cancer, you would do better than someone with a negative attitude. Scientific studies debunked that. But I guess if the facts are too grim, why not distract yourself with happy thoughts?

[The Renegade]

I shall post this from today's Guardian Archive.

 

It is posted for those that keep harking back to the '75 Referendum and how everyone knew that they were voting for ever closer Monetary & Political Integration ??

 

It covers the build up to Thatchers 1988 Bruges speech.

 

2 things that stand out

 

Thatcher was a proponent of the Single Market ( Which as a stand alone idea ) was a great idea.

 

Quote

Margaret Thatcher was not a proto-Brexiter but an enthusiastic supporter of the single market, according to draft versions of her celebrated 1988 Bruges speech.

But she also had this to  say

 

Quote

But he shared the prime minister’s clear direction, declaring: “We did not vote in 1973 for the creation of a new European union super state.” 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/21/margaret-thatcher-backed-single-market-in-draft-bruges-speech

 

The UK joined the Common Market ( EEC ) in '73 and at a subsequent Referendum in '75 voted to stay in the Common Market ( EEC )

 

Not as some would try to have us believe ?? That we were all informed that the UK was having a Referendum in '75 that would lead us towards an EU Superstate.

[tebee]

34 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

 

 

Has UK got her act together and presented a "service profile" for/to WTO?

 

 

Don't be silly - that would mean having to do some real work and might need the help of some experts - we got rid of all them, remember? They didn't agree with us.

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

I shall post this from today's Guardian Archive.

 

It is posted for those that keep harking back to the '75 Referendum and how everyone knew that they were voting for ever closer Monetary & Political Integration ??

 

It covers the build up to Thatchers 1988 Bruges speech.

 

2 things that stand out

 

Thatcher was a proponent of the Single Market ( Which as a stand alone idea ) was a great idea.

 

But she also had this to  say

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/21/margaret-thatcher-backed-single-market-in-draft-bruges-speech

 

The UK joined the Common Market ( EEC ) in '73 and at a subsequent Referendum in '75 voted to stay in the Common Market ( EEC )

 

Not as some would try to have us believe ?? That we were all informed that the UK was having a Referendum in '75 that would lead us towards an EU Superstate.

Once again some other person unuacquainted with the facts telling us that the aspirations of some towards creating a single superstate is somehow close to being a reality without a clue as to how this could actually be achieved.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

There was a time when there was a popular belief that if you had a positive attitude about your cancer, you would do better than someone with a negative attitude. Scientific studies debunked that. But I guess if the facts are too grim, why not distract yourself with happy thoughts?

I like to take to take a more pragmatic approach. Still blaming the UK for everything, shouldn't the EU take any blame.

[The Renegade]

11 minutes ago, tebee said:

Don't be silly

???

 

Comedy at it's finest.

[candide]

13 hours ago, Spidey said:

We will get exactly the same deal from the EU whether it's a remainer or a brexiteer doing the negotiations. The only possible difference for the UK might be that we would leave with no deal at all, which government brexiteers and remainers both agree would be a disaster for the UK.

And the options are already known (with minor alterations): EEA or CETA models. These models have been approved by member states, including by UK governments. The EU cannot diverge significantly from these models.

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, candide said:

CETA models. These models have been approved by member states, including by UK governments. The EU cannot diverge significantly from these models.

You better ask tebee about that one.

 

According to him that would be illegal, so cannot have happened.

[melvinmelvin]

14 minutes ago, tebee said:

Don't be silly - that would mean having to do some real work and might need the help of some experts - we got rid of all them, remember? They didn't agree with us.

 

too bad, no profile no WTO dealing

 

maybe DD could hack that

 

[tebee]

19 minutes ago, tebee said:

Don't be silly - that would mean having to do some real work and might need the help of some experts - we got rid of all them, remember? They didn't agree with us.

 

6 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

???

 

Comedy at it's finest.

"Comedy is about telling the truth in a funny way"

[The Renegade]

Quote

Barnier dismisses Theresa May's Brexit white paper demands

EU’s Brexit negotiator raises concerns over smuggling, red tape and competition

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/20/france-minister-nathalie-loiseau-brexit-concessions-theresa-may-commons

 

???

 

No smuggling goes on the within the EU, especially people smuggling ??

 

EU complaining about red tape ??

 

Worried about competition ? No cheating goes on within the EU ?? 

 

If this article is true. It must be, it comes from the remainers handbook. Then Barnier is an even bigger idiot than I gave him credit for.

[melvinmelvin]

8 minutes ago, candide said:

And the options are already known (with minor alterations): EEA or CETA models. These models have been approved by member states, including by UK governments. The EU cannot diverge significantly from these models.

 

I might be daft - but don't really understand what you say.

EEA model? You mean UK accessing EU/Single market through EEA?

Would in my view require, as a start, an UK EFTA membership of EFTA, not sure UK would be welcome in EFTA.

Assuming UK in EFTA would still require the agreement of ALL EU member states to see UK in EEA.

 

Mind you, when UK pisses off in March next year she also opts out of EEA.

 

 

 

[The Renegade]

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

Comedy is about telling the truth in a funny way"

You should try it sometime.

 

That permanent cloud of doom and gloom with the buckets of pessimism that pours down on you is not funny.

 

You also have to be able to understand the articles that you post to determine whether they are true or not.

 

So you are not doing too well, when it comes down to your definition of comedy.

[tomacht8]

27 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/20/france-minister-nathalie-loiseau-brexit-concessions-theresa-may-commons

 

???

 

No smuggling goes on the within the EU, especially people smuggling ??

 

EU complaining about red tape ??

 

Worried about competition ? No cheating goes on within the EU ?? 

 

If this article is true. It must be, it comes from the remainers handbook. Then Barnier is an even bigger idiot than I gave him credit for.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/08/uk-faces-2bn-fine-over-chinese-imports-scam-say-eu-anti-fraud-investigators

 

UK faces €2bn fine over Chinese imports scam, say EU investigators

Customs officials are accused of negligence for failing to crack down on criminal gangs flooding Europe with illegal goods

[Jip99]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

You are quite right, the UK government holds the 'cards' of a large percentage of the industrial workforce.

 

As far as the negotiations are concerned, the UK chose to leave and the only thing they have on their side of the table are money and disruption to the operation of the EU.

The money is important to the EU but they can get by without it. Disruption is the main concern and which they will be keen to minimise, but within reason. They are not going to compromise on fundamental issues, and why should they, the problem is not of their making. The sooner that TM gets on the same page the better.

The EU has been taking steps to deal with the disruption for some time, appears the UK is waiting for some sort of divine intervention.

 

 

I can't argue with that......................I still find it a shame that the whole thing as become so polarising and confrontational.

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

Why do you always put the onus on the UK and not the EU, do you think the EU is capable of negotiating, they want to hurt us, simple as. Never once have I read from the remainers that the EU may be to blame here, or at least share some responsibility, and I guess I never will.

I cannot understand why people choose to ignore this statement from Article 50.

"That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. "

 

When the UK invoked article 50 they did so in the knowledge that the negotiations would be related to the Functioning of the European Union, not the functioning of the UK.

Those that want to leave seem to have the idea that it is the other way round, no more so than TM who seems to think rules are only for someone else. She thought she could circumvent parliament and look how that panned out, trying to do the same with the EU.

 

While Article 50 governs a country’s departure from the bloc, Article 218 describes how the EU makes agreements with “third countries or international organizations.” So while Article 50 will get the U.K. out the door — the indisputably crucial first step — experts on EU law say an agreement on the future relationship between the U.K. and the EU can only be brokered under Article 218, once Britain returns to third country status.

https://www.politico.eu/article/forget-article-50-heres-article-218/