Is Reincarnation and Fate a Rookie Mistake

[bowerboy]

Whenever I speak to people about the shocking road death toll and Thai's general lack of safety awareness many people always quote the standard reply of "it is a Buddhist country and so they believe in fate and or reincarnation and so death and taking care to avoid it is not so important to them".

 

Given the appalling death toll on the roads, the apparent complete lack of any common sense regarding safety in general and the complete lack of willingness to adapt to safety ways I very often ask Thai's if they behave the way they do because of they are not scared of death because of reincarnation of if they simply believe in fate and that "it wont happen to me or if it does then it was meant to be". The vast majority of Thai's will look at you like you have 2 heads, like you are some kind of idiot. Of course they do not want to die and of course they are scared of dying and no they don't believe it all comes down to fate.

 

I have lived and worked here for 15 years (I just find it a convenient place and I have a good job here, I am not a Thai lover by any means and am happy to leave when my work dictates). I think this recklessness comes down to pure and utter stupidity and lack of education and nothing more.

 

Try and ask a Thai about the above and see what they say. I think it is a newbie/rookie mistake to buy into the fate/reincarnation excuse. 

 

Thoughts welcome.

[poanoi]

i think we will see a slight depreciation of baht until new year,

so dont fret it

 

[nausea]

Actually, Buddhism doesn't really need reincarnation, it was tagged on as an afterthought. You see there are three kinds of religion or philosophy  - text-based, experential, and rational. Buddihsm is experential, and there is absolutely no experential evidence for reincarnation, but it was thought a good thing for moral reasons - live a good life now, get your reward in the future.

[OmarZaid]

Buddha would be appalled at what folks have done with his teachings and so-called religion ...

[scorecard]

28 minutes ago, OmarZaid said:

Buddha would be appalled at what folks have done with his teachings and so-called religion ...

Agree. My Thai adult son studied Buddhism from a small child (his desire, not forced in any way) and he's quite knowledgeable on the Buddha' philosophies and teachings he is appalled at what he sees from his own outer family and the current corruption in temples etc etc.

 

He gave up trying to rationally discuss with his aunties, uncles, cousins years ago. They tell him he's wrong and in next breath they talk about visiting some temple hundreds of kilometres away to get lucky lottery numbers....

 

He spends time talking with his kids to ensure they have a correct understanding and he ensures as much as possible they are kept away from the rubbish attitudes and beliefs etc.

 

His view on Thai attitudes to road safety etc., adds one more word 'lazy' . Too lazy to put on a helmet, too lazy to check if there's cars coming into the intersection, before you change lanes, etc. Plus he won't allow his wife and kids to travel in many of the vehicles driven by outer circle family members. 

 

In the family outer circle there have been several accidents and death, and always the attitude 'it's fate you can't stop it so it's a waste of time to drive slowly, carefully etc., and it's too serious, have to think too much'. 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by scorecard

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, scorecard said:

His view on Thai attitudes to road safety etc., adds one more word 'lazy' . Too lazy to put on a helmet, too lazy to check if there's cars coming into the intersection, before you change lanes, etc. Plus he won't allow his wife and kids to travel in many of the vehicles driven by outer circle family members. 

Not true. Thais will put on a helmet for the "helmet check point" in Lamphun, and take it off after they pass through. They just don't like wearing them.

I wouldn't let my wife drive with me in the car, as I was terrified by her driving, especially when she was angry about something.

Plenty of terrible drivers where I come from. Just human nature, IMO.

[Hayduke]

 

Virtually all religions/belief systems are predicated on the universal fear of death. The most popular religions would never have gotten popular without somehow addressing this fear and promoting some idea of an ‘afterlife’. And buying into any ‘belief system’ can be a relatively effective way to ease the anxiety associated with dying. Once you ‘believe’ what the doctrine describes then you don’t have to worry about it. Well.…not too much.

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Hayduke

[vogie]

I don't believe in reincarnation and I didn't believe in it when I was a frog.

[Brunolem]

8 hours ago, nausea said:

Actually, Buddhism doesn't really need reincarnation, it was tagged on as an afterthought. You see there are three kinds of religion or philosophy  - text-based, experential, and rational. Buddihsm is experential, and there is absolutely no experential evidence for reincarnation, but it was thought a good thing for moral reasons - live a good life now, get your reward in the future.

Reincarnation is to be seen as a punishment, a sign of failure, and not as a reward.

 

The ultimate objective of those who follow the Buddha's teachings is to escape the cycle of rebirth.

 

Reincarnation is like some kind of graduation system:

 

If one has been a good student, living a right life, one may be reincarnated in a position that will help one to reach higher, say as a monk for example.

 

At the other extremity, those who have been bad students, or did not study at all, may be reincarnated in a lower life form, say as a dog for example.

 

What the story doesn't say is how those reincarnated as animals can ever escape their plight since they are unlikely to become good Buddhist students...

 

Having said that, there are extremely few (real) Buddhist in Thailand, maybe less than in Germany or England for that matter.

 

[smotherb]

It seems to me to be more of a public awareness cause than a philosophical one. In more developed countries nanny-like laws mandate safety rules and beliefs. In less-developed countries there is less concern for protecting people. Note the lack of enforcement of traffic rules in Thailand. If the rules they have were better enforced; there would be fewer reckless drivers a fewer road accidents/deaths.

[LukKrueng]

3 hours ago, OmarZaid said:

Buddha would be appalled at what folks have done with his teachings and so-called religion ...

as would Jesus, Mohammad and Moses....

[OmarZaid]

2 hours ago, LukKrueng said:

as would Jesus, Mohammad and Moses....

ditto .... indeed

[OmarZaid]

5 hours ago, scorecard said:

Agree. My Thai adult son studied Buddhism from a small child (his desire, not forced in any way) and he's quite knowledgeable on the Buddha' philosophies and teachings he is appalled at what he sees from his own outer family and the current corruption in temples etc etc.

 

He gave up trying to rationally discuss with his aunties, uncles, cousins years ago. They tell him he's wrong and in next breath they talk about visiting some temple hundreds of kilometres away to get lucky lottery numbers....

 

He spends time talking with his kids to ensure they have a correct understanding and he ensures as much as possible they are kept away from the rubbish attitudes and beliefs etc.

 

His view on Thai attitudes to road safety etc., adds one more word 'lazy' . Too lazy to put on a helmet, too lazy to check if there's cars coming into the intersection, before you change lanes, etc. Plus he won't allow his wife and kids to travel in many of the vehicles driven by outer circle family members. 

 

In the family outer circle there have been several accidents and death, and always the attitude 'it's fate you can't stop it so it's a waste of time to drive slowly, carefully etc., and it's too serious, have to think too much'. 

 

 

Smart man .... a bit lonely though eh?

[Ks45672]

5 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Reincarnation is to be seen as a punishment, a sign of failure, and not as a reward.

 

The ultimate objective of those who follow the Buddha's teachings is to escape the cycle of rebirth.

 

Reincarnation is like some kind of graduation system:

 

If one has been a good student, living a right life, one may be reincarnated in a position that will help one to reach higher, say as a monk for example.

 

At the other extremity, those who have been bad students, or did not study at all, may be reincarnated in a lower life form, say as a dog for example.

 

What the story doesn't say is how those reincarnated as animals can ever escape their plight since they are unlikely to become good Buddhist students...

 

Having said that, there are extremely few (real) Buddhist in Thailand, maybe less than in Germany or England for that matter.

 

Religion in thailand is thb..... 

[duanebigsby]

I think smotherb was on the right track with public awareness. To expand on his ideas,  education in schools should include traffic safety. Driving/riding schools should be encouraged for driver training before getting licenses. Police enforcement and moving traffic violations issued with consequences, not these crap roadside fines. But foremost, police corruption needs to be eradicated and it will NEVER happen.

 

[gentlemanjackdarby]

15 hours ago, Hayduke said:

 

Virtually all religions/belief systems are predicated on the universal fear of death. The most popular religions would never have gotten popular without somehow addressing this fear and promoting some idea of an ‘afterlife’. And buying into any ‘belief system’ can be a relatively effective way to ease the anxiety associated with dying. Once you ‘believe’ what the doctrine describes then you don’t have to worry about it. Well.…not too much.

 

 

 

I thought long and hard before deciding to reply to your post, mostly because I don't want to get involved in a debate and I don't want to act as a teacher, but I do want to point out a few things that might be of interest to the more contemplative folks who read the thread:

 

There are many different 'schools' of Buddhism and it's reasonably safe to say that all of the major schools have as their basis the teachings of the Buddha, although many of the later schools have added, for lack of a better word, 'additional' teachings or beliefs.

 

So far as such labels are valid in Buddhism and so that others can understand my perspective, I can be thought of as a 'Theravada Buddhist' which is 'different' from 'Tibetan Buddhism'.

 

The major difference between Buddhism and Middle Eastern religions is that there is no such thing as 'birth' or 'death' and the things that humans label 'birth' and 'death' are nothing more than natural events in a continuum and therefore 'death' is not something to be feared since, when the body stops functioning, there is no 'everlasting soul' that need to 'go' anywhere.

 

The reason Buddhism became popular is because it explained the nature of 'suffering' (craving) and offered a way to stop it in this life and to end the continuum of 'birth', 'death' and suffering; it also probably helped that it wasn't spread at the point of a sword.

 

As far as 'buying into' Buddhism, Buddhism is unique among the religions in that the Buddha taught that one should not believe his teachings simply because he said they were so; the Buddha encouraged his disciples to test his teachings for themselves and see for themselves that they were so. In that spirit, unlike Middle Eastern religions, in Buddhism there is no profession of faith by whose mere utterance of and 'belief' in, one can achieve something 'eternal'.

 

Speaking from experience, Buddhism is not something that one just reads about, believes, and suffering ceases - it takes reading and study to understand the Buddha's teachings, which he likened to a 'signpost' on the road to enlightenment, and continuous practice and mindfulness of them.

[Brunolem]

9 hours ago, gentlemanjackdarby said:

 

There are many different 'schools' of Buddhism and it's reasonably safe to say that all of the major schools have as their basis the teachings of the Buddha, although many of the later schools have added, for lack of a better word, 'additional' teachings or beliefs.

 

As far as the Thai version of Buddhism is concerned, instead of adding, they have rather substracted, a lot!...so much so that what remains has nothing to do with the original message of the Buddha.

 

The average Thai has never heard about the pillars of the Buddha's teachings, such as the Four Noble Truths, or the Noble Octuple Path!

 

Actually, most Thais don't even know the Buddha's name!

 

Finally, at the core of Buddhism is meditation, something unknown and even less practiced by anyone in the country.

 

It is as if Catholics had never heard about praying!

 

Buddhism in Thailand is some kind of chamanism that has been built around the image of the Buddha, maybe because this image was available and there was no need to look for another one.

 

 

[kannot]

On 7/2/2018 at 7:54 AM, OmarZaid said:

Buddha would be appalled at what folks have done with his teachings and so-called religion ...

if there actually was "one" Buddha, as usual a  load of ole  claptrap its reckoned its a mix of many different Buddhas.

Also like many religions nothing was written down until 400 years afterwards....in this case...........imagine  its actually  true and no changes have occurred been embellished and probably bare no resemblance to the truth in those 400 yrs

Edited July 7, 2018 by kannot

[bert bloggs]

You die ,you rot and become another part of the earth ,there is no God ,no heaven ,no afterlife ,nothing . just the here and now ,enjoy it while you can . i am

[OmarZaid]

11 hours ago, kannot said:

if there actually was "one" Buddha, as usual a  load of ole  claptrap its reckoned its a mix of many different Buddhas.

Also like many religions nothing was written down until 400 years afterwards....in this case...........imagine  its actually  true and no changes have occurred been embellished and probably bare no resemblance to the truth in those 400 yrs

Apparently, a few centuries after the first one died, King Ashoka erected about 200 iron steele proclaiming he & Buddha were monotheists, some are still standing I've read ... dunno -- I met a monk from Sri Lanka who has since been thrown out of Thailand some years back for trying to get folks to ditch the statues ...

[kannot]

No its a mistake of the masses

[RocketDog]

On 7/1/2018 at 7:55 PM, Hayduke said:

 

Virtually all religions/belief systems are predicated on the universal fear of death. The most popular religions would never have gotten popular without somehow addressing this fear and promoting some idea of an ‘afterlife’. And buying into any ‘belief system’ can be a relatively effective way to ease the anxiety associated with dying. Once you ‘believe’ what the doctrine describes then you don’t have to worry about it. Well.…not too much.

 

 

 

Thank you so much Hayduke. I have said that to hundreds of people. Mostly I get a blank look and the quick dismisal from their minds. I did get a few to finally admit that regardless of ANY lack evidence for belief in an afterlife, it makes them feel better.

There you have it.

Christopher Hitchens said it all in the title of his book: "God is not great. How religion spoils everything."

 

People simply cannot accept that the pitiless universe gives not a hoot for any of us. They make up a higher being that cares for them and then swear unswerving loyalty to such being so as to hide from their own fear of dying..

 

All of this being so obvious to any casual observer is what finally put me off from arguing with them. If they finally agree with you then they feel hopeless and miserable.

 

If they would only keep it to themselves I would be happy.. But no, they are compelled to pull the rest of the world into their own mental weakness and insanity.

 

Gods save us all from God!

[Ctkong]

On 7/2/2018 at 11:15 AM, Brunolem said:

Reincarnation is to be seen as a punishment, a sign of failure, and not as a reward.

 

The ultimate objective of those who follow the Buddha's teachings is to escape the cycle of rebirth.

 

Reincarnation is like some kind of graduation system:

 

If one has been a good student, living a right life, one may be reincarnated in a position that will help one to reach higher, say as a monk for example.

 

At the other extremity, those who have been bad students, or did not study at all, may be reincarnated in a lower life form, say as a dog for example.

 

What the story doesn't say is how those reincarnated as animals can ever escape their plight since they are unlikely to become good Buddhist students...

 

Having said that, there are extremely few (real) Buddhist in Thailand, maybe less than in Germany or England for that matter.

 

If you reincarnate into an animal, it meant in your past life, you did not do much merit, partake carnal delight, do harmful deeds like killing living things,... a discredit to Buddhism. You may then downgraded to animal or ghost or Hell realms. To upgrade from one realm to another may take many reincarnations.  

Animals may also upgrade into human realm after many reincarnations as animals.. there are various grade of animals too. 

[NCC1701A]

[NCC1701A]

On 7/8/2018 at 9:48 AM, bert bloggs said:

You die ,you rot and become another part of the earth ,there is no God ,no heaven ,no afterlife ,nothing . just the here and now ,enjoy it while you can . i am

When one of my old girlfriends was six months old she began speaking in her crib in a strange language her parents could not understand. Her father was a engineer who made a recording and took it to UCLA in Los Angeles where the language was identified as a dead language (I can't remember which one).

 

Isn't that interesting?

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

And then there are some people who sit alone somewhere and pray to god that they and maybe their families are safe and don't have any accidents - that is not much smarter than the Thai version.

[marko kok prong]

What is the point,as far as i know you don't remember any of your past lives anyway,so what is the damn point.At least i know i will be in Valhalla,i have already the boat,which we shall set adrift on the pond,and machete in my hand they will fire an arrow and set it afire and Odin will welcome me to his hall.

[Enoon]

 

"The vast majority of Thai's will look at you like you have 2 heads, like you are some kind of idiot."

 

As do Western "atheists" who fail to see, when it is suggested to them, the extent to which they have internalised and subliminated certain Christian beliefs (as opposed to Christian morality) and made them a fundamental (but unrecognised/unacknowleged) part of their "independent" world view.

 

Greeks, Romans, Christians.........without them no Western Civilisation.

 

Without them.......Thailand and the rest of the "East".

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Enoon

[Emster23]

Clearly OP is an old soul. Or a young one. Or maybe middle level. You could look it up.

I like what Anthony Burgess once said: "Don't fly on an airline where the pilots believe in reincarnation".

[IssanMichael]

Reincarnation is real, after my Father died a few months later i had a reading with a medium, the message was that he could not stand the sex and violence in his new life, evidently he was now a rabbit on Salisbury plain.

 

My Thai wife recently borrowed some money for an exorcism, and she is now worried that if she can't pay it back she could be re-possessed.