Rescue Diver Killed In Tham Luang Cave Complex

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, pokerface1 said:

The reality of the danger kicks in right now!! This has got to have a very negative effect on the other divers and their own confidence in getting the job done.

Regular divers should not venture into the cave only those with cave diving experience. It is a highly specialized field and only those who have the right mind set qualify.

RIP you are a hero to all of us!! 

This has got to have a very negative effect on the other divers and their own confidence in getting the job done.

Agreed about the other divers, but imagine what effect the news will have on the boys. I'd say they will be too terrified to even contemplate diving now. They'll also be extremely upset that someone died trying to rescue them, and I'm thinking the coach will be a psychological mess now. 

[Mattd]

5 minutes ago, Brewster67 said:

Why can't they rig up a system where a dive mask is connected to an air-line and air is manually pumped using a rotary pump operated by a team and one kid at a time brought through each flooded section at a time starting with the coach who got them in that situation in the first place.... I think igt is their ONLY hope.

 

Each person will need to be shepherded by experienced (NONE THAI) cave divers...

I am sure that all options have and are still be looked at based on merit and the likely hood of success.

There will be several issues with using an air hose, as this could get snagged, damaged, etc. plus there will be a percentage loss of pressure depending on the distances involved, this can be compensated for, but would require regulators and so on.

IMO they should be escorted by a Thai speaker who can communicate with them, which would make them feel more comfortable (if that is possible) and perhaps an experienced cave diver as well.

 

The very sad loss of one the divers will have made the whole task just that bit more difficult, as it has highlighted the risks massively.

[tebee]

Oh so sad . It's always a tragedy to lose a brave man, but to do so trying to rescue others is especially so.

 

Not that it will help him, but I hope he gets high military honors and his family are well taken care of   

[Toshiba66]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

This has got to have a very negative effect on the other divers and their own confidence in getting the job done.

Agreed about the other divers, but imagine what effect the news will have on the boys. I'd say they will be too terrified to even contemplate diving now. They'll also be extremely upset that someone died trying to rescue them, and I'm thinking the coach will be a psychological mess now. 

There is no way they will tell any of the kids or coach about this death. 

[Brewster67]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You said what I was going to. Those saying it was a simple matter of training to get the boys to dive through the flooded tunnels will now have to think again. If a SEAL can die, what hope young boys with no dive experience or swimming ability?

I know that I'd rather wait till the water goes down than risk it in a claustrophobic flooded tunnel, and I'm a SCUBA diver. Apparently there are places so narrow that it is single file. Way too easy for a small boy to panic and die, and that would be worse than waiting a few months. Given an electricity and phone cable and some home comforts, the time would be boring but hopefully result in success.

 

I hope they give this guy the highest medal LOS has for bravery. RIP.

If they stayed put, the reality is that the chamber where they are will be flooded when the proper rains arrive.. I think the Thai authorities should swallow their pride, step aside and let the experience of the international rescue services take over and run the show... Thai Navy Seals would literally be experienced in open water diving only and NOT restricted cave diving which is a specialist form of diving.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, Toshiba66 said:

There is no way they will tell any of the kids or coach about this death. 

I agree they shouldn't, but as the kids are able to, or will be able to talk to their parents, someone is going to let the news out. Too many people involved to keep secrets.

[webfact]

Former Navy Seal dies during Tham Luang rescue operation

 

CHIANG RAI, 6th July 2018, (NNT) - A former Navy Seal has died during the Tham Luang rescue operation, while concern rises over the reducing air supply inside the cave. 

The Navy Seal unit taking part in the rescue operation delivered news of the unfortunate development at the media briefing on Friday morning.

 

Meanwhile, a command center has just been erected inside the cave’s 3rd chamber to coordinate the rescue mission, which includes the management and delivery of various supplies and equipment from the outside world to the location of the 12 boys and their footall coach.

 

It was also pointed out that the only way to reach the survivors is to dive through murky waters; it takes a strenuous 5-6 hours to make the 1.7 kilometer underwater trip. 

The deceased, Petty Officer First Class Sman Kunan, was a 38-year-old former Navy Seal. He was responsible for placing oxygen tanks along the 1.7-kilometer airtight rough terrain linking the 3rd chamber and Nern Nom Sao, the current position of the survivors. On his way back to the command center in the 3rd chamber, Petty Officer

 

First Class Sman fell unconscious. His teammates were able to bring him back to the chamber and give him first aid treatment before sending him to the hospital, during which time he did not regain consciousness. Petty Officer First Class Sman Kunan passed away at the hospital after his arrival. The military has announced that an honorary military funeral will be held for the deceased former navy Seal. 

Military officials are now focusing their efforts on laying down pipelines delivering air supply and a communications system. They acknowledged that the oxygen level inside the cave is noticeably reduced.

 

Meanwhile, efforts to drain water out of the cave continue, with officials being dispatched to find and redirect water sources from entering the cave.

 

-- nnt 2018-07-06

[smutcakes]

Just now, Brewster67 said:

If they stayed put, the reality is that the chamber where they are will be flooded when the proper rains arrive.. I think the Thai authorities should swallow their pride, step aside and let the experience of the international rescue services take over and run the show... Thai Navy Seals would literally be experienced in open water diving only and NOT restricted cave diving which is a specialist form of diving.

I am sure all of the International teams are there providing advice and input, and i am sure the Thai teams are listening and taking on that advice. I think you put this situation in any country in the world and you are going to have the same problem.

 

As you mention i dont think leaving them there is an option, i think they suspect it will flood there also. I presume they have tried searching deeper into the tunnel to see if there is any access/egress or different situation further down.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, Brewster67 said:

If they stayed put, the reality is that the chamber where they are will be flooded when the proper rains arrive.. I think the Thai authorities should swallow their pride, step aside and let the experience of the international rescue services take over and run the show... Thai Navy Seals would literally be experienced in open water diving only and NOT restricted cave diving which is a specialist form of diving.

Indeed, the question is whether to risk kids dying from panic, or wait and keep pumping and hope for the best. I don't think anyone has experience in a similar situation, so there is nothing in the rule book to help.

 

IMO, the South American solution is the best of a lot of bad options. Take them out by a drill hole.

[chrisinth]

Without trying to take anything away from this tragedy, I don't think anyone knows yet as to why K. Samarn fell unconscious. It could have been for numerous reasons, from medical conditions to equipment failure. Things that would not necessarily affect the extraction of the children.

 

What everybody does (or should) realize, is the extremely dangerous conditions these people are working in.

[overherebc]

12 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

This has got to have a very negative effect on the other divers and their own confidence in getting the job done.

Agreed about the other divers, but imagine what effect the news will have on the boys. I'd say they will be too terrified to even contemplate diving now. They'll also be extremely upset that someone died trying to rescue them, and I'm thinking the coach will be a psychological mess now. 

Yes. I was about to say please keep this kind of news away from the kids until they are out.

[Just1Voice]

I was a military trained diver, but even in my prime, which was a long time ago, I would have serious doubts about this dive. Cave diving of this nature is not even similar to open water diving.  

 

[simon43]

 They acknowledged that the oxygen level inside the cave is noticeably reduced.

 

Not a big surprise, considering how many extra people are now staying with the boys.

[steve73]

Another concern I have (now that this operation is involving so many other diving personel - I read somewhere there could be as many as 60-70 divers in the cave at any one time), is how they are managing all the empty tanks...  If one of the divers switches his near empty tank for a full one mid way, then that empty tank need to be removed as soon as possible (and in the meantime its needs to be marked as empty) or else a following diver may try to use it.   No way to identify with certainty whether a tank is full or only partly used until you have connected it to your kit, and can check it with your own pressure gauge..

 

I'm not even sure if you can change bottles whilst underwater, in silty water  - perhaps one of the more experience divers could comment...?

Edited July 6, 2018 by steve73

[CGW]

38 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Maybe now some serious attention will be directed towards the drilled rescue shaft option.

My retired old brain was thinking about this yesterday and just what would be involved, it would take "time?" for sure, how long - no idea- but given the resources available to them it would certainly be doable.

From what I have read they would need to drill 700 - 900m, then obviously they would have to "line" the hole with steel. The hole would have to be directionally controlled, so you would need to start off with a smaller sized hole then open the hole to ~20", you would not be able to drill into the cavern until towards the end, you would have to leave ~20m so you could get the solids out of the hole, then finally punch through, there would be a hairy moment, hydrostatic alone would be ~1,200 psi. What happens when you go from having a hole supported by 1,200 psi  to be unsupported, obviously there will be a huge amount of fill heading into the cavern!!!!!!!!!!!

Before they could even start they would need a "pad" for the rig equipment, you would need a fair sized rig with ample Horse power, capable of running 20" pipe to line the hole, weight of this minimum 250,000 rigsite would need to have ground capable of supporting ? 500,000 lbs, if a road could be cleared it would simplify things, if not logistics would be a nightmare, I'm sure there are a lot more complications that we are not aware off.

PTT have been part of the team since day one, sure there experts can figure out a way, but a lot of unique problems would need to be solved.

Seems to me the only viable option is to take them out via the tunnel, we are also now being told that where they are situated could also flood, could they move them to a area where they could guarantee no flooding? Difficult  decisions to be made...................

 

[Ks45672]

1 hour ago, NCC1701A said:

lets hope this phase of the operation is not starting to go sideways.

 

 

Thais Should have stepped back and let the brits or the Americans handle the whole thing... 

[thaibeachlovers]

6 minutes ago, steve73 said:

Another concern I have (now that this operation is growing so many arms and legs), is how they are managing all the empty tanks...  If one of the divers switches his near empty tank for a full one mid way, then that empty tank need to be removed as soon as possible (and in the meantime its needs to be marked as empty) or else a following diver may try to use it.   No way to identify with certainty whether a tank is full or only partly used until you have connected it to your kit, and can check it with your own pressure gauge..

 

I'm not even sure if you can change bottles whilst underwater, in silty water  - perhaps one of the more experience divers could comment...?

They should have the regulator and tubing etc already connected. It's been a long while since I last dived, but I don't think one can change the regulator underwater, plus it could take a long time to change the regulator over and if it didn't go easily, what would you be breathing? I also think it would be difficult training kids without any experience to change mouthpiece in such a situation. Doing it when able to surface would be very different psychologically from doing it in a tunnel. We must remember that we are talking about young children, not adults.

[lanista]

As a former diver myself those caves look perilous. Diving in zero viz,even shallow depths  is fraught with danger. Not surprised someone has lost their life in those complex cave systems.

Maybe it should be eventually closed to the public although that would cost revenue. Money will win out.

Edited July 6, 2018 by lanista

[steve73]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

They should have the regulator and tubing etc already connected. It's been a long while since I last dived, but I don't think one can change the regulator underwater, plus it could take a long time to change the regulator over and if it didn't go easily, what would you be breathing? I also think it would be difficult training kids without any experience to change mouthpiece in such a situation. Doing it when able to surface would be very different psychologically from doing it in a tunnel. We must remember that we are talking about young children, not adults.

I had the impression that there were supplies of just the tanks along the route.. not already connected to its own regulator and mouthpiece, etc. There must be a way to fit a 2nd bottle before removing the first... i.e. like when using a dual tank arrangement..  

[Brewster67]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

They should have the regulator and tubing etc already connected. It's been a long while since I last dived, but I don't think one can change the regulator underwater, plus it could take a long time to change the regulator over and if it didn't go easily, what would you be breathing? I also think it would be difficult training kids without any experience to change mouthpiece in such a situation. Doing it when able to surface would be very different psychologically from doing it in a tunnel. We must remember that we are talking about young children, not adults.

You don't need tanks.... have you not seen bering sea gold?.... they have a fixed mask attached to a long hose which is connected to a rope and also has a communication line... the whole thing is called an umbilical and divers can stay under for hours at a time, not only do they have unlimited air as long as the compressor is running, but can also communicate....

 

personally i would have this setup already in place even if it is a last resort in case the cavern is in danger of flooding, then they are all dead anyway.

 

The flooded sections are not so long that each one can't be negotiated one at a time.... Even if you had to tie the kid's arms and legs together and pulled them through with ropes and other divers guiding them by pulling them through.

 

yes the kid will panic, but as he gets pulled through each section at a time his trust and confidence will grow.... i would start with the idiot coach as the guinea pig seeing as he got them into this mess in the fist place.

 

get all thirteen kids through the first section, then start getting them through the next and so on.

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Brewster67 said:

You don't need tanks.... have you not seen bering sea gold?.... they have a fixed mask attached to a long hose which is connected to a rope and also has a communication line... the whole thing is called an umbilical and divers can stay under for hours at a time, not only do they have unlimited air as long as the compressor is running, but can also communicate....

 

personally i would have this setup already in place even if it is a last resort in case the cavern is in danger of flooding, then they are all dead anyway.

 

The flooded sections are not so long that each one can't be negotiated one at a time.... Even if you had to tie the kid's arms and legs together and pulled them through with ropes and other divers guiding them by pulling them through.

 

yes the kid will panic, but as he gets pulled through each section at a time his trust and confidence will grow.... i would start with the idiot coach as the guinea pig seeing as he got them into this mess in the fist place.

 

get all thirteen kids through the first section, then start getting them through the next and so on.

 

 

I doubt the air supply option would be viable over the distance they are diving. I believe it's around a mile. No way they could drag a line that long anyway.

[Basil B]

Very sad news...

 

As a diver myself I feel the plan to train them boys to swim and dive or staying put to November (may be a lot later than November when the flood waters subside enough) as being not the right move.

 

I have already heard the oxygen level is down to 15%, (if the oxygen level is depleted that much then more importantly what is the CO2 level?).

 

Why have the not started drilling or tunneling their way in as a back up option? are they really going to wait until there is no other option before starting?

[Brewster67]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I doubt the air supply option would be viable over the distance they are diving. I believe it's around a mile. No way they could drag a line that long anyway.

Lol..... you use sections and connect them one at a time till it reaches.

 

it isn't rocket science.... Air is pumped for miles through mine shafts using that method.

 

You don't go out and get a 1 mile hose. ?

 

[thaibeachlovers]

12 minutes ago, steve73 said:

I had the impression that there were supplies of just the tanks along the route.. not already connected to its own regulator and mouthpiece, etc. There must be a way to fit a 2nd bottle before removing the first... i.e. like when using a dual tank arrangement..  

While I haven't used a dual tank myself, I believe they are already joined, with a single regulator attachment point.

If there is a way to attach a 2nd tank before removing the first I never learned of one when I was dive training, which of course doesn't mean there isn't one.

 

Google has the answer.

 

https://www.scubaboard.com/community/threads/can-you-swap-a-tank-underwater.309644/

Typically though, anyone who is bringing multiple tanks on a dive, is bringing multiple regs, pre-attached to those tanks. The regulator would certainly have to be serviced after.

Edited July 6, 2018 by thaibeachlovers

[steve73]

32 minutes ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

Not a big surprise, considering how many extra people are now staying with the boys.

As well as the chamber where the boys (and their supporting rescue team) are, possibly suffering with oxygen depletion, there is a high probability that any or all of the dry sections between the totally flooded sumps will similarly be getting depleted, especially with the number of divers taking in supplies etc.

At some point they will need to use masks or mouthpieces along the entire route, which will use even more bottled air. 

Not sure if I saw them taking real oxygen bottles (with a green band around the top..??) into the cave on Thai TV this morning.

How many O2 bottles would they need to last 4 months...?

[Mattd]

2 minutes ago, Brewster67 said:

they have a fixed mask attached to a long hose which is connected to a rope and also has a communication line... the whole thing is called an umbilical and divers can stay under for hours at a time, not only do they have unlimited air as long as the compressor is running, but can also communicate....

The only way that this would have any chance of success would be if it could be done in short stages, especially in a confined cave environment, remember it is horizontal movement, not vertical.

They would need tenders for the umbilical, it is cumbersome and heavy and people checking it a long the way to stop it getting snagged or damaged.

The compressors would have to be electrically driven, fossil fueled could cause air contamination.

I have worked for many years with commercial saturation divers and I'm quite sure that none of these would relish the thought of this type of dive.

[scubascuba3]

Quite possible Thai navy divers are underestimating how scary these dives are, breathing much faster and using too much air

[Brewster67]

1 minute ago, Mattd said:

The only way that this would have any chance of success would be if it could be done in short stages, especially in a confined cave environment, remember it is horizontal movement, not vertical.

They would need tenders for the umbilical, it is cumbersome and heavy and people checking it a long the way to stop it getting snagged or damaged.

The compressors would have to be electrically driven, fossil fueled could cause air contamination.

I have worked for many years with commercial saturation divers and I'm quite sure that none of these would relish the thought of this type of dive.

It is increasingly becoming one of their only options, and if the setup is handled right, there is no reason why it can't work.....

 

When the monsoon arrives and reality sets in that all could die, they may have no choice.

 

Diving with tanks in very constricted conditions is just as risky and i will throw my hat into the ring here and say the reason this hero died is because he was snagged because of his bulky equipment and ran out of air.

 

'became unconscious'... to me, means suffocated through lack of air.

[Mattd]

3 minutes ago, Basil B said:

I think they used to call that keel hauling... 

Indeed, as they bash and scrape alongside the cave walls.................... impossible to control.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 minutes ago, Brewster67 said:

Lol..... you use sections and connect them one at a time till it reaches.

 

it isn't rocket science.... Air is pumped for miles through mine shafts using that method.

 

You don't go out and get a 1 mile hose. ?

 

Ever tried dragging a mile long tube? I certainly couldn't do it on dry land, and absolutely not underwater in a tunnel.