SURVEY: Is Russia the enemy?

[bristolboy]

3 hours ago, 1337markus said:

Try watching RT run and spoken by Yanks ?

Ever hear of Lord Haw-Haw or Tokyo Rose?

[dick dasterdly]

4 minutes ago, upu2 said:

The concept of Russia being an enemy is in my opinion something made up to detract from the real problems with the country

I'd amend this to russia being an enemy that is used as 'a bogeyman' when western countries need an immediate enemy "to detract from the real problems" within their own country.

Edited July 30, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[balo]

As a European I feel that Trump is our Enemy , not Putin . That's just how I feel . 

 

[Opl]

28 minutes ago, balo said:

As a European I feel that Trump is our Enemy , not Putin . That's just how I feel . 

 

As a European, I feel that Trump is Putin's best ally. 

[upu2]

1 minute ago, Opl said:

As a European, I feel that Trump is Putin's best ally. 

Not so sure Putin would agree with that but he is using Trump's naivety to his benefit so he will pretend they are friends

[Opl]

12 minutes ago, upu2 said:

Not so sure Putin would agree with that but he is using Trump's naivety to his benefit so he will pretend they are friends

Both dislike Europe. Both showed off how they favour far-right movements in Europe.  Regarding Europe, I think they are allies with the same aims.  

[TumblinDice]

12 hours ago, balo said:

As a European I feel that Trump is our Enemy , not Putin . That's just how I feel . 

 

As a Canadian, I feel that Trudeau is our countries enemy, not Putin or that American orange clown. Thats just how many Canadians feel.

[friendofthai]

"There has been the on-going investigations into election interference in the US"

To say the truth, we are living in the unipolar world with the single center of real power - USA. All the countries in this world are just vassals of the US. So it would be strange if the dependent countries would not have tried to influence the elections. Of course they did this. All of the 100+ countries in this world tried to interfere. Because their real boss sits in Washington DC and their future depends on who will be sitting there. But we see that only Russia was mentioned. So it is just a formal reason for sanctions, not the real one. The real reason is that Russia is a competitor. And some people think they will help the US to win the competition.

"and another case of poisoning in the UK which is being blamed on Russia."

 
Death is a very scary and terrifying thing for most of us. But the military men think totally different. You can see that an average war means that 10 thousands of Americans will die. Does this stop them to start new wars? No. Because for the military men, all these victims of war - they are just "acceptable loses" for getting geopolitical benefits - nothing more.
So 10 thousands of Americans are "acceptable loses" for getting geopolitical benefits at any war. But what about 2 - 4 British victims for an opportunity to attack Russia? Are they "acceptable loses" or not? They sure are.

[bristolboy]

4 hours ago, TumblinDice said:

As a Canadian, I feel that Trudeau is our countries enemy, not Putin or that American orange clown. Thats just how many Canadians feel.

When some uses a vague word like "many" in a context like this, you know that what they're saying is insignificant. 

[friendofthai]

Now the US has an unique historical chance to finish Russia and to cut it into several small pseudo-countries. The only problem is that American people just don't think that several millions of deaths in a short nuclear war can be called "acceptable loses". Military men from the pentagon will survive for sure because they have good bunkers.
But what about the others? There are 2 options for them:
1. Build millions of bunkers all over the US.
2. Use the press to urge the American people to support this war.

Looks like we are on the second route.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, friendofthai said:

Now the US has an unique historical chance to finish Russia and to cut it into several small pseudo-countries. The only problem is that American people just don't think that several millions of deaths in a short nuclear war can be called "acceptable loses". Military men from the pentagon will survive for sure because they have good bunkers.
But what about the others? There are 2 options for them:
1. Build millions of bunkers all over the US.
2. Use the press to urge the American people to support this war.

Looks like we are on the second route.

 

Other than in your mind - what war?

[friendofthai]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Other than in your mind - what war?

"isidious enemy" along with other similar things in press sound like war preparations for me. A kind of mobilization. Very similar to what can be noticed before any other war.

[Opl]

On ‎7‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 8:35 AM, upu2 said:

The concept of Russia being an enemy is in my opinion something made up to detract from the real problems with the country

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Opl

[TumblinDice]

19 hours ago, bristolboy said:

When some uses a vague word like "many" in a context like this, you know that what they're saying is insignificant. 

OK. You go ahead and take a poll. I know for a fact that it is more than "many". 

Here's a start from what I just googled...

Discontent with the Trudeau Liberals has grown to such a level that if a federal election were held tomorrow, the Conservatives would romp to a comfortable win.

That’s according to a new Ipsos poll that found the Liberals to be hemorrhaging support even among their target demographics, namely the middle class, women and millennials, with many progressives increasingly weighing up a vote for the NDP.

Overall, 56 per cent of the 1,003 Canadians surveyed for the poll said the Liberals have fallen short of expectations, with 60 per cent saying it’s time for them to make way for another federal party.

Only five per cent said the Trudeau government exceeded their expectations.

 

I suppose you think Trump knows what he is talking about when he uses the words "many", "great", "tremendous" without backing it up with actual numbers? 

 

Have a nice day. 

[nontabury]

On 7/30/2018 at 7:46 AM, bristolboy said:

Ever hear of Lord Haw-Haw or Tokyo Rose?

Yes, and I would put those who do not accept the democratic vote of the British electorate in the same mold. Thus you being an ardent remainer, would feel at home.

Edited July 31, 2018 by nontabury

[nontabury]

On 7/30/2018 at 7:57 AM, balo said:

As a European I feel that Trump is our Enemy , not Putin . That's just how I feel . 

 

That’s how many of us Brits think about those Bureaucrats in Brussels.

[mikebike]

On 7/12/2018 at 11:41 AM, Morch said:

 

Both my replies were in reference to posts you made on this topic (nevermind parallel ones). But since you pretend otherwise....

 

The notion that Western governments' use of propaganda is equivalent or on-par with practices by the likes of Russia is incorrect. Not that the former doesn't engage in such, just that the extent to which Western governments can control media is limited in comparison. The narrative claiming equivalency (for example, such as in "can trust neither", "all are the same") is essentially a Russia propaganda construct. Since it cannot be claimed that Russian media is not restricted or that the level of freedom of information is similar, the next best argument is to discredit the "opposition" by asserting it is "the same". Adopting this narrative is essentially embracing Russian propaganda talking points.

 

Criticizing Western governments is all very well (and  that we can engage in such, actually makes the point) - without losing sight of the fact that for all their faults they are not the same as, say, Russia.

Media is media and whether the propaganda is state controlled or ideologically controlled is of little significance. As a consumer of media of any ilk one must be prepared to understand bias and nuance digesting content from multiple, conflicting, sources.

[mikebike]

On 7/30/2018 at 1:46 PM, bristolboy said:

Ever hear of Lord Haw-Haw or Tokyo Rose?

Does this guy remind you of those two?

 

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/06/08/jesse-venturas-new-russian-state-tv-show-i-am-working-for-the-enemy-of-mainstream-media-now/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ef2c158d0eef

[bristolboy]

4 hours ago, TumblinDice said:

OK. You go ahead and take a poll. I know for a fact that it is more than "many". 

Here's a start from what I just googled...

Discontent with the Trudeau Liberals has grown to such a level that if a federal election were held tomorrow, the Conservatives would romp to a comfortable win.

That’s according to a new Ipsos poll that found the Liberals to be hemorrhaging support even among their target demographics, namely the middle class, women and millennials, with many progressives increasingly weighing up a vote for the NDP.

Overall, 56 per cent of the 1,003 Canadians surveyed for the poll said the Liberals have fallen short of expectations, with 60 per cent saying it’s time for them to make way for another federal party.

Only five per cent said the Trudeau government exceeded their expectations.

 

I suppose you think Trump knows what he is talking about when he uses the words "many", "great", "tremendous" without backing it up with actual numbers? 

 

Have a nice day. 

Let me remind you of what you actually wrote since you seem somewhat confused about that:

"As a Canadian, I feel that Trudeau is our countries enemy, not Putin or that American orange clown. Thats just how many Canadians feel."

In fact there's good evidence to show that your contention is a load of s***te:

Liberals rise in polls as Canadians rally behind Trudeau in spat with Trump: Ipsos poll

"As the weather gets warmer, Canadians are also warming back up to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and the Liberals — with their approval rating jumping by five points this month.

According to an exclusive Ipsos poll for Global News, 55 per cent of Canadian respondents approve of Justin Trudeau’s government, up from 50 per cent in June...

Pollster Mike Colledge, president of Ipsos Canada public affairs, explained the uptick in approval has to do with the timing — Canadians are rallying around Trudeau after public disagreements with U.S. President Donald Trump."

https://globalnews.ca/news/4342222/liberals-polls-canadians-trudeau-trump/

You'll notice that this poll was taken 2 weeks after the poll you cited. You might also take note of the fact that this latest poll shows the liberals ahead of the conservatives.

And even in relation to the Ipsos poll you cited were any questions asked if Canadians considered Trudeau to be Canada's enemy and not Trump or Putin? Somehow I doubt it. But if you can produce that question for me, I'll concede you have a point. 

I await your response with interest.

 

 

[Scott]

Troll post removed.  

 

[Morch]

On 8/1/2018 at 4:37 AM, mikebike said:

Media is media and whether the propaganda is state controlled or ideologically controlled is of little significance. As a consumer of media of any ilk one must be prepared to understand bias and nuance digesting content from multiple, conflicting, sources.

 

No, it isn't "same same" at all.

 

State-owned media outlets in democratic countries are free to criticize government conduct and policy. This is not the case with regard to their counterparts in non-democratic countries.

 

As for "ideologically controlled" - with regard to most media outlets in democratic countries, that's more an issue of ideological bent or core positions. And people can reference different points of view quite easily and freely. So there isn't really all that much "control" involved, on the meta-level.

 

When talking about state level intervention, Russia's media outlets are a direct tool of the state. Media on the West is nothing like that. There is no equivalence in terms of level of control. The former is a propaganda machine, the latter is only sometimes played/used as such.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Morch

[Morch]

On 7/31/2018 at 10:56 PM, friendofthai said:

"isidious enemy" along with other similar things in press sound like war preparations for me. A kind of mobilization. Very similar to what can be noticed before any other war.

 

Ah, so you decide some bellicose statements imply impeding war. That's not particularly convincing - if this was the standard, there's be wars all over the place. What "mobilization" would that be? And how are these statements different from many others made?

 

 

[mikebike]

51 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

No, it isn't "same same" at all.

 

State-owned media outlets in democratic countries are free to criticize government conduct and policy. This is not the case with regard to their counterparts in non-democratic countries.

 

As for "ideologically controlled" - with regard to most media outlets in democratic countries, that's more an issue of ideological bent or core positions. And people can reference different points of view quite easily and freely. So there isn't really all that much "control" involved, on the meta-level.

 

When talking about state level intervention, Russia's media outlets are a direct tool of the state. Media on the West is nothing like that. There is no equivalence in terms of level of control. The former is a propaganda machine, the latter is only sometimes played/used as such.

You are correct. The incidious propaganda of the western media and who controls it (and why) is much better veiled.

 

No different, but much better concealed.

Edited August 2, 2018 by mikebike

[Morch]

14 minutes ago, mikebike said:

You are correct. The incidious propaganda of the western media and who controls it (and why) is much better veiled.

 

No different, but much better concealed.

 

Until you can demonstrate that "Western media" speaks in one voice, avoids criticizing Western governments and generally acts like lousy government spokespersons, your nonsense opinion will remain just that. Of course, according to some conspiracy theory minds, the very fact that this cannot be demonstrated is the proof itself. Try harder, will ya?

[mikebike]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Until you can demonstrate that "Western media" speaks in one voice, avoids criticizing Western governments and generally acts like lousy government spokespersons, your nonsense opinion will remain just that. Of course, according to some conspiracy theory minds, the very fact that this cannot be demonstrated is the proof itself. Try harder, will ya?

What does "one voice" have to do with disseminating propaganda?

 

Your focus on "government(s)" is laughable. Governments ARE NOT the only actors in society wishing to propagate information which is counter-productive to society in general.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, mikebike said:

What does "one voice" have to do with disseminating propaganda?

 

Your focus on "government(s)" is laughable. Governments ARE NOT the only actors in society wishing to propagate information which is counter-productive to society in general.

 

This topic is about Russia. Hence the relevance of the focus on "government(s)". If you wish to talk about "other actors in society" supposedly dealing in propaganda, that's all very well - but not quite what the topic is about.

 

The significance of "one voice" is that while Russia's efforts on this front are coordinated and streamlined, Western governments have a harder time getting the media (as a whole) to play along. That's got something to do with democracy and such. You are the one trying to lump together "Western media" - so the question presented doesn't make much sense.

 

Spin this however you like, there is no equivalency.

[mikebike]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

This topic is about Russia. Hence the relevance of the focus on "government(s)". If you wish to talk about "other actors in society" supposedly dealing in propaganda, that's all very well - but not quite what the topic is about.

 

The significance of "one voice" is that while Russia's efforts on this front are coordinated and streamlined, Western governments have a harder time getting the media (as a whole) to play along. That's got something to do with democracy and such. You are the one trying to lump together "Western media" - so the question presented doesn't make much sense.

 

Spin this however you like, there is no equivalency.

The equivalence is that all national media, whether state-controlled or not, are disseminators of propaganda antithetical to the majority of society. My point is it is easier to spot in countries with state-controlled media therefore, potentially easier to filter. "One Voice" actually makes the propaganda weaker.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, mikebike said:

The equivalence is that all national media, whether state-controlled or not, are disseminators of propaganda antithetical to the majority of society. My point is it is easier to spot in countries with state-controlled media therefore, potentially easier to filter. "One Voice" actually makes the propaganda weaker.

 

No, that's just an general assertion you toss in without much (if any) corroboration and support. Either that, or maybe your understanding of "propaganda" is that it includes any opinionated point of view. The bit about the "majority of society" is, again, not something which you can demonstrate.

 

You keep trying to claim that there is no difference between state-controlled media outlets in non-democratic countries, and independent (as in not state-controlled) media outlets in democratic countries. That is not the case. The latter can (and do) criticize relevant governments, publish stories which aren't to governments' interests and so forth.

 

Your "point" relies on your faulty assertions, hence, not much of a "point". As posted earlier, seems like you're one of those that see the proof for the "argument" in the absence of such "proof".

[TumblinDice]

On 7/31/2018 at 6:52 PM, bristolboy said:

Let me remind you of what you actually wrote since you seem somewhat confused about that:

"As a Canadian, I feel that Trudeau is our countries enemy, not Putin or that American orange clown. Thats just how many Canadians feel."

In fact there's good evidence to show that your contention is a load of s***te:

Liberals rise in polls as Canadians rally behind Trudeau in spat with Trump: Ipsos poll

"As the weather gets warmer, Canadians are also warming back up to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and the Liberals — with their approval rating jumping by five points this month.

According to an exclusive Ipsos poll for Global News, 55 per cent of Canadian respondents approve of Justin Trudeau’s government, up from 50 per cent in June...

Pollster Mike Colledge, president of Ipsos Canada public affairs, explained the uptick in approval has to do with the timing — Canadians are rallying around Trudeau after public disagreements with U.S. President Donald Trump."

https://globalnews.ca/news/4342222/liberals-polls-canadians-trudeau-trump/

You'll notice that this poll was taken 2 weeks after the poll you cited. You might also take note of the fact that this latest poll shows the liberals ahead of the conservatives.

And even in relation to the Ipsos poll you cited were any questions asked if Canadians considered Trudeau to be Canada's enemy and not Trump or Putin? Somehow I doubt it. But if you can produce that question for me, I'll concede you have a point. 

I await your response with interest.

 

 

Trudeau is a spineless, stuttering, Mr. Dress-up pu$$y. He's scared of standing up to Trump & Putin & is a danger to the future generations and culture (whatever is left) of Canada.

It is the ignorant, pot smoking, teary eyed, liberal millennials that think he is so cool & will waste their votes on him. His father sure <deleted> the country up & Justin continues to do so.

He's a pansy azz part time drama teacher for gawd sake, good for costume parties & photo ops only! The manchild can't put a sentence together without multiple "uhhhms" while his brain catches up to his mouth and he cries like a baby! What kind of leader is that? Toronto & Surrey is a mini India and Vancouver is referred to as Hongcouver and in between is rapidly growing little Syrias scattered all over. 

"People kind". Good gawd he's a flaming idiot.

You go ahead & vote for him along with all the newly arrived Syrian refugees & east Indians who he freely lets in. Thats pretty much all who will support him.

I really don't care if you think my comments are insignificant. I don't mind & you don't matter.

I certainly am not confused when it comes to Mr. Dress-up. 

We'll see at the next election what the polls say.

[bristolboy]

5 minutes ago, TumblinDice said:

Trudeau is a spineless, stuttering, Mr. Dress-up pu$$y. He's scared of standing up to Trump & Putin & is a danger to the future generations and culture (whatever is left) of Canada.

It is the ignorant, pot smoking, teary eyed, liberal millennials that think he is so cool & will waste their votes on him. His father sure <deleted> the country up & Justin continues to do so.

He's a pansy azz part time drama teacher for gawd sake, good for costume parties & photo ops only! The manchild can't put a sentence together without multiple "uhhhms" while his brain catches up to his mouth and he cries like a baby! What kind of leader is that? Toronto & Surrey is a mini India and Vancouver is referred to as Hongcouver and in between is rapidly growing little Syrias scattered all over. 

"People kind". Good gawd he's a flaming idiot.

You go ahead & vote for him along with all the newly arrived Syrian refugees & east Indians who he freely lets in. Thats pretty much all who will support him.

I really don't care if you think my comments are insignificant. I don't mind & you don't matter.

I certainly am not confused when it comes to Mr. Dress-up. 

We'll see at the next election what the polls say.

Trudeau is scared of standing up to Trump? So he didn't impose retaliatory tariffs on American imports? 

But thanks for letting me know that Toronto is now a mini-India. Another good reason to visit. As is the Chinese presence in Vancouver.