UPDATE: Four boys have left the cave so far: Chiang Rai governor

[Sheryl]

How many anaethatists  just happen to be cave diving experts?

It is a common background for specialists in dive medicine.

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[newnative]

1 minute ago, Just1Voice said:

From all the reports I've read, this coach gave up his own food and water for the boys.  He kept them together and tried his best to keep their spirits up.  In other words, he sacrificed his own health to help these boys.  

But you have some sort of childish, petting vindictiveness that would rather see him stay till last, and possibly die because it was "his fault" they were in there in the first place. 

 

You must live a miserable life full of disappointments.

 

Sorry, disagree.  All the boys first, then the coach.  

[berybert]

2 minutes ago, newnative said:

Sorry, disagree.  All the boys first, then the coach.  

Good job what you think means nothing then.

 

[dannyman]

That is what the Bangkok Post is reporting. Apparently the coach was brought out because he was deemed one of the weaker ones.  Weak or not, I think the coach should have been last out, only after all the boys he was responsible for had been taken out.  

Are you serious




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[chrisinth]

6 minutes ago, Just1Voice said:

From all the reports I've read, this coach gave up his own food and water for the boys.  He kept them together and tried his best to keep their spirits up.  In other words, he sacrificed his own health to help these boys.  

But you have some sort of childish, petting vindictiveness that would rather see him stay till last, and possibly die because it was "his fault" they were in there in the first place. 

 

You must live a miserable life full of disappointments.

 

All these reports, and there have been excellent ones throughout the drama, don't get me wrong.

 

But has anyone actually read them properly? When it states that the coach gave up his food and drink for the kids, how much did they have with them when they entered the cave complex? How long were they intending staying in the caves?

 

Was the coach even with them when they entered, we don't even know this for a fact. And I am one of the ones who don't think the coach should be blamed.

[Dario]

39 minutes ago, ozzydom said:

How many anaethatists  just happen to be cave diving experts?

German BILD newspaper reported that Danish diving instructor Ivan Katadzic (who was holidaying in Krabi province) escorted one of the boys out and they were sedated. Must have been done by the Australian doctor mentioned earlier in this thread. He said that the divers took out four boys, the rest would be escorted out on Monday and Tuesday.  No mentioning about two more.

[newnative]

2 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

But he was physically too weak as he had given all the food he brought on the ill-timed camping mission to the boys. I can imagine of any of the 13 trapped, the coach will be the one having the worst  nightmares, PTSD or whatever as he is totally aware that he was solely responsible for what happened.

 

If there was a problem with the extraction plan and it took much longer to complete the mission and the coach had died, some here may have relished the som nam nah of it all.

 

The SEAL doctor made the correct call.

And, how's he going to feel if he got out and some of the boys didn't because maybe the conditions worsened?  I still say all the boys should have gone first.

[cmsally]

1 minute ago, chrisinth said:

All these reports, and there have been excellent ones throughout the drama, don't get me wrong.

 

But has anyone actually read them properly? When it states that the coach gave up his food and drink for the kids, how much did they have with them when they entered the cave complex? How long were they intending staying in the caves?

 

Was the coach even with them when they entered, we don't even know this for a fact. And I am one of the ones who don't think the coach should be blamed.

With a rescue mission as tricky and precarious as this one, do people seriously think it is up to those trapped as to "who goes first". Other people are putting their lives on the line to rescue the group and will have made detailed judgements/assessments as to the order they will go in. It is their call as to who they take out first and last and theirs only.

[NanLaew]

18 minutes ago, Megasin1 said:

precisely why if I was running this operation I would lock it down until it was all over. When it is all over nobody will care. You can add up many things like their swimming and diving ability and the safety of the rescuers, the black out and finally the parents lock out and come to your own conclusions. 

I read in a chronology of the rescue mission that the parents were all summonsed for a personal briefing with the ex-Governor 2 hours before the launch of the rescue mission. It was a 1 hour meeting. I am fairly confident that the parents had the reasons for 'radio silence' explained and equally confident that they accepted it. Then the media was kicked off the site 1 hour before the rescue mission started. Even with a black-out, the media is still managing to get unofficial snippets... or make things up. Imagine what it had been like if they were not barred?

 

Unless I missed an official press release saying as much, I reckon maybe it's the media, struggling to work with no real information, that are claiming the parents haven't been told anything.

[lannarebirth]

11 minutes ago, newnative said:

Sorry, disagree.  All the boys first, then the coach.  

Sure, if the coach were healthy and there were no other responsible adults to turn their care over to. But that isn't the case. You seem punitive and vindictive towards someone who risked his own health to ensure, for as long as he could, the health of those in his care.

[Sheryl]

Are you aware that people die from anaesthesia and that it is a highly risky procedure? It  is the reason why surgeons do their utmost to use local anaesthesia.
As I explained above,  the  physician  doesn't just give drugs to put people under. He is a specialist in understanding the best mix of air for a person because he can measure some vital signs and even do tests to determine the oxygen levels in the blood. He might provide a mild sedative to a child in a state of panic, but even that is a dangerous procedure as one needs the coherent and awake to follow instructions and to breath normally. Any cessation of breathing will result in a burst lung as the air will be trapped and will expand as the child surfaces and the water pressure drops.

As above.

Any type of sedation would introduce significant risk and would be done only as a last resort.

The skill set of anesthetists includes quite a lot more than administration of anesthesia and this is a common background for a number of highly specialized fields, including dive medecine.

It has been interesting to me to observe the difference, from the onset, in the Thai assessment of the kids' likely behavior and that of foriegners. The Thais don't have great expertise in cave diving but they do have the competitive edge in psychological insight into the boys, there are some things that can't well be assessed using a translator nor by someone of a different culture. Right at the onset they interviewed the people who knew the kids well, the team members who did not join the trip that day, the chief coach, parents, teachers, friends. This led them to believe there was a very good likelihood that the boys had sought high ground and stayed put there, while foreigners were less confident, fearing they would have panicked and gone into the water seeking a way out etc. Info from local informants also led them to expect to find the boys around Pattaya Beach area and not off in other directions as some outsiders who knew the cave thought might be the case. The Thai assessment proved correct on both grounds.

Then after some 5 days of direct interaction with the boys, the Thai assessment was that they were mentally up to the challenge of being dived out. So far this has also proven true.

Fingers crossed it continues to. I do have more confidence in the assessment of Thais in direct contact with the boys and their families, friends and teachers than in broad assessments made by experts who do not have that exposure. Certainly people habe been known to panic in situations like this and certainly the risk of that is a major concern in operations like this. But the likelihood in a specific case/with specific people is highly variable and best calculated by people of the same culture and language and with direct contact.

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[neeray]

4 minutes ago, chrisinth said:

All these reports, and there have been excellent ones throughout the drama, don't get me wrong.

 

But has anyone actually read them properly? When it states that the coach gave up his food and drink for the kids, how much did they have with them when they entered the cave complex? How long were they intending staying in the caves?

 

Was the coach even with them when they entered, we don't even know this for a fact. And I am one of the ones who don't think the coach should be blamed.

+ one

And we will all be looking forward to so many details, things we have all been guessing about, debating (or arguing) about all along. For example, I want to know if those 4 sandals were placed to form an arrow or if they just looked like an arrow (unintentionally).

Looking forward to a successful conclusion for now.

[chrisinth]

4 minutes ago, cmsally said:

With a rescue mission as tricky and precarious as this one, do people seriously think it is up to those trapped as to "who goes first". Other people are putting their lives on the line to rescue the group and will have made detailed judgements/assessments as to the order they will go in. It is their call as to who they take out first and last and theirs only.

Oh please don't get me wrong, if the coach was one of the ones needing medical assistance more than the others, then certainly he should have been one of the first to go. IMO the decision to send the weakest ones first was definitely the correct decision.

 

If it was one of the support group that needed help, then they should be taken out first ahead of the medically fit.

[NanLaew]

9 minutes ago, Dario said:

German BILD newspaper reported that Danish diving instructor Ivan Katadzic (who was holidaying in Krabi province) escorted one of the boys out and they were sedated. Must have been done by the Australian doctor mentioned earlier in this thread. He said that the divers took out four boys, the rest would be escorted out on Monday and Tuesday.  No mentioning about two more.

I guess "Danish diving instructor Ivan Katadzic (who was holidaying in Krabi province)" didn't understand what keeping his own counsel meant or maybe he missed the briefing?

 

In my book, so far that's a couple of foreign volunteers from the south end of the Realm that have sh!t in their nest when it comes to not keeping their traps shut.

[Sheryl]

Both local and international news this morning report that parents are with the boys in the hospital.

It was also reported that parents were waiting at the cave entrance during the extraction. Not specified if that was parents of all the kids or selected kids i.e. if they knew which ones were coming out.

Rescue operations actions such as trying to set up telephone contact, ferrying letters back and forth etc suggest they viewed contact with patents as a priority important to the boys' wellbeing

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[holy cow cm]

31 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

What's your issue with the air tanks? There was no trial run to assess air tank redundancy; it was a hot-start mission. This isn't a 'business', it is a rescue mission.

 

So you would have all the kids in the water, on a first blind-run? What if there was a physical or technical issue at the front of the 'convoy' on this untested extraction plan?

 

There are enough rescue divers and dive support to make this a 24/7 extraction but you forget that the kids and the coach have been trapped underground for over 2 weeks in total darkness so their normal circadian rhythms will be all over the shop. They are the ones that don't have a well-rested backup team 'on-shift' when the rescue divers get them ready for diving out. They will go when the Australian Navy SEAL doctor who has been with them since shortly after their discovery says they are ready to go.

 

Otherwise your 20/20 hindsight and arrogance is appreciated.

S

 

52 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

What's your issue with the air tanks? There was no trial run to assess air tank redundancy; it was a hot-start mission. This isn't a 'business', it is a rescue mission.

 

So you would have all the kids in the water, on a first blind-run? What if there was a physical or technical issue at the front of the 'convoy' on this untested extraction plan?

 

There are enough rescue divers and dive support to make this a 24/7 extraction but you forget that the kids and the coach have been trapped underground for over 2 weeks in total darkness so their normal circadian rhythms will be all over the shop. They are the ones that don't have a well-rested backup team 'on-shift' when the rescue divers get them ready for diving out. They will go when the Australian Navy SEAL doctor who has been with them since shortly after their discovery says they are ready to go.

 

Otherwise your 20/20 hindsight and arrogance is appreciated.

Sorry don't concur with your thoughts on timing or the top Thai playing with his baton leading the circus parade in the lime light of the media. The tank supply was crucial to having an easy flow for a start to go to the finish and yet another crucial overlooked detail that had potential err for fatality. And yes your question of what if there was a problem in the convoy. It is all in timing so things don't get tangled or muddled up and that again should be left to the foreign team to decide and not the Thai side.. 

 

The Australian physician gave an all ok on Saturday which could have been Friday as far as we know, and it has nothing to do who is the strongest fittest to the weakest as you can see now. That is a variable call for the health and safety of keeping all of them alive as the assistant coach needed to get out fast as we heard.

 

Saturday was the clear open weather window and the baton leader baulked to have all ready and prepared. If you are going to lead and want to play chief, then lead or you are just lame almost like Cos Play pretending.

 

Foreigners have no time say in this matter, and again it somehow has to sit on a Thai face thing. The only great thing they did was relinquish control of divers to the real pros, the real experienced professional foreign cave divers. This was a brilliant call. I have many reservations for how Thai run things, and over my many o many years here is just cause for the concern. Evidently if the cave was off limits and closed when real rains start and not on opening day of the rainy or monsoon season we would not be looking at this emergency at all. And it is not the first time a cave death from a down pour has happened.

 

All of what I stated will not help at present as all we can do is look forward to what will come.

 

The one good thing we ( you and me and everyone) all have in common is that we want all of the kids and emergency rescue help to be safe.

[berybert]

6 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

I guess "Danish diving instructor Ivan Katadzic (who was holidaying in Krabi province)" didn't understand what keeping his own counsel meant or maybe he missed the briefing?

 

In my book, so far that's a couple of foreign volunteers from the south end of the Realm that have sh!t in their nest when it comes to not keeping their traps shut.

The German newspaper Bild reported...……… If you believe stuff the newspapers write there is little hope. 

[newnative]

1 minute ago, lannarebirth said:

Sure, if the coach were healthy and there were no other responsible adults to turn their care over to. But that isn't the case. You seem punitive and vindictive towards someone who risked his own health to ensure, for as long as he could, the health of those in his care.

Not punitive or vindictive. Certainly don't blame the coach or think he should be charged with anything.  I'm just saying the 12 young boys should have been assessed health-wise and rescued first before the adult as nobody knows if conditions will deteriorate. The adult took a rescue slot that could have gone to one of the young boys.

[berybert]

1 minute ago, newnative said:

Not punitive or vindictive. Certainly don't blame the coach or think he should be charged with anything.  I'm just saying the 12 young boys should have been assessed health-wise and rescued first before the adult as nobody knows if conditions will deteriorate. The adult took a rescue slot that could have gone to one of the young boys.

Maybe the people in the cave are looking at them all as human beings. You should try it.

[lannarebirth]

3 minutes ago, newnative said:

Not punitive or vindictive. Certainly don't blame the coach or think he should be charged with anything.  I'm just saying the 12 young boys should have been assessed health-wise and rescued first before the adult as nobody knows if conditions will deteriorate. The adult took a rescue slot that could have gone to one of the young boys.

Well, when you think about it, there all really just boys, aren't they?

[tingtongtourist]

3 minutes ago, Just1Voice said:

From all the reports I've read, this coach gave up his own food and water for the boys.  He kept them together and tried his best to keep their spirits up.  In other words, he sacrificed his own health to help these boys.  

But you have some sort of childish, petting vindictiveness that would rather see him stay till last, and possibly die because it was "his fault" they were in there in the first place. 

 

You must live a miserable life full of disappointments.

 

yes i also find this spite and laying blame very disfasteful. 

Displays farang thinking at its worst and i am ashamed to admit i was guilty also in my former western life.

 

off the topic, but the way people talk about this coach, is like the way they treat people in car accidents in a nanny state.

 

 A driver in accident, passenger (are his family) killed,

but all police are interested is laying legal charges of whatever they can on the poor bสstard to get big fines.

Sometimes an accident, its not really the driver fault but the law says he automatically get a "negligency of driving" charge

dont worry that the guy already suffer from guilt and in his own hell from a terrible loss 

is ok,  we just kick him a bit more to teach him a lesson.

( i am talking of just accident of course, not involving a drunk driver)

 

disgusting part of western life IMO,

and glad Thais think and do a bit different.

 

[newnative]

3 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

Well, when you think about it, there all really just boys, aren't they?

Umm.  No.

[jossthaifarang]

Since you fellows have gone so far off topic, check out this capsule, It will probably be too big for some of the narrower parts but I'ts still an impressive build in just a few days.. 

 

19ef4425d6ab1f6f0345136a04290ff2

 

[HHTel]

20 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Both local and international news this morning report that parents are with the boys in the hospital.

It was also reported that parents were waiting at the cave entrance during the extraction. Not specified if that was parents of all the kids or selected kids i.e. if they knew which ones were coming out.

Rescue operations actions such as trying to set up telephone contact, ferrying letters back and forth etc suggest they viewed contact with patents as a priority important to the boys' wellbeing

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A short while ago, it was confirmed by an official on Thai TV that names of those rescued have been withheld from even their parents in consideration of the reaction from parents whose children are still trapped.

 

Regarding the Australian doctor, his presence was requested by the British cave divers.  Apparently, he's well known in this field and has been involved in other rescue operations.

 

[Yann55]

5 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

I heard it was just 24 hours before family are allowed to see them. I really hope they are able to evacuate the other kids safely tomorrow, but the rescue teams have performed magnificently so far so I have a lot of confidence.

 

I do hope the recuperation process is fast and they can be released and escorted to the world cup final - this would be a dream come true for the boys and the coach both, and may even be medically prudent in aiding their recovery and reassimilation. I can't imagine how the kids must feel after such a traumatising experience, but I can say one thing for sure - if the love of my life was football, and I was feeling much better, but was prevented from attending a private invitation to the world cup final due to over-cautious doctors saying I needed to remain in hospital for observation, I'm not sure if I could forgive them.

 

I am sooooo with you on that one .... For these kids, I bet watching the World Cup Final live would beat any kind of medicine ! Anyway... everyone's still holding their breath as 9 of them are still inside.

 

Reading your reference to 'over-cautious doctors' gets me thinking too... When I saw the first images of the kids trapped in that narrow cave, beyond the overwhelming emotion, I was struck by the fact that they are obviously strong, resilient, and courageous. In their letters, too, you could sense how polite and considerate they are, and how keen they were to put up a brave and happy face even though they were tired, hungry, scared at heart, and surely aware that their ordeal was far from over.

 

These are obviously 'country kids', meaning that their education and environment are waaaay different from what children in Bangkok are accustomed too. How would Bangkok (or Western) kids have gone through such a trial ? This certainly raises deep and challenging questions about education.

 

I also find the general response of the families in this situation quite admirable, poised, full of common sense and tolerance. So much for those of us who never miss a chance to lash out at Thais for their supposed 'immaturity'. Oh sure, their reactions are often radically different from ours, but different doesn't mean better or worse, it just means ... different. If Westerners, and especially expats here, could keep that in mind before passing judgment on all and everything Thai, this Forum, for one thing, would be a whole lot more civilized.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Yann55

[ttrd]

porters..https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/first-boys-emerge-thailand-cave-rescue-mission-enters-final-act-n889646

[Sheryl]

A short while ago, it was confirmed by an official on Thai TV that names of those rescued have been withheld from even their parents in consideration of the reaction from parents whose children are still trapped.
 
Regarding the Australian doctor, his presence was requested by the British cave divers.  Apparently, he's well known in this field and has been involved in other rescue operations.
 

Names and ages of the 4 rescued have been reported in the international press.

Though no official confirmation


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[Toshiba66]

So many conflicting stories and what appears to be lots of guesswork.

 

Facts appear to be:

4 out of the cave and 9 to go.

 

I am sure those involved are making the right decisions about who goes out  in what order.

 

I just want to read about the numbers out. Not interested in names or speculation about Anaesthetists, who is leading the recovery, who  should come out last or anything else. Most of the truth will come out in time. Not today that's for sure.

 

I just want everyone out alive and well. Give me numbers please!

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by Toshiba66

[Sheryl]

56 minutes ago, newnative said:

Not punitive or vindictive. Certainly don't blame the coach or think he should be charged with anything.  I'm just saying the 12 young boys should have been assessed health-wise and rescued first before the adult as nobody knows if conditions will deteriorate. The adult took a rescue slot that could have gone to one of the young boys.

There is no reason at all to think that occurred.

 

Reports that he was one of the 4 are at best unconfirmed. The names of the 4 listed in Australian pres do not include the coach.

[newnative]

40 minutes ago, tingtongtourist said:

yes i also find this spite and laying blame very disfasteful. 

Displays farang thinking at its worst and i am ashamed to admit i was guilty also in my former western life.

 

off the topic, but the way people talk about this coach, is like the way they treat people in car accidents in a nanny state.

 

 A driver in accident, passenger (are his family) killed,

but all police are interested is laying legal charges of whatever they can on the poor bสstard to get big fines.

Sometimes an accident, its not really the driver fault but the law says he automatically get a "negligency of driving" charge

dont worry that the guy already suffer from guilt and in his own hell from a terrible loss 

is ok,  we just kick him a bit more to teach him a lesson.

( i am talking of just accident of course, not involving a drunk driver)

 

disgusting part of western life IMO,

and glad Thais think and do a bit different.

 

    My thinking on this has nothing to do with the nationality involved.  If this was an American story, with an American adult Boy Scout leader and his 12 American children in his care, my thinking would be exactly the same--kids first, especially if there is uncertainty with the cave flooding.