UK police find source of Novichok nerve agent in small bottle

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

So all your arguments are based on information they might posses that we don't have. Essentially you blindly believe your government despite the fact that they lied to you in the past and they lied about the origins of the nerve agent. Fool me once, fool me twice, fool me... yeah just keep fooling me I don't care.

No.

 

I have very clearly stated that the recovery of the chemical is a great news for the investigation and the people in the local area. 

I have also explained how this can be compared to other samples (Full text at post .7).

 

I have disputed your assertions regarding requirements to provide proof, motives etc.

I've challenged off topic diversions.

I have pointed out your unfounded assertions regarding Russian Motives or lack of evidence. 

 

Let the investigation continue. 

 

 

[tumama]

3 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Because you can't exchange a dead double agent with your enemies to get some of your own agents back (which is what they did with Skripal). It's the same principle that the US used with Rudolf Abel back in the 50's. Although many in the US wanted Abel to be given the death penalty, as Abel's attorney put it:

 

Of course, you can always have the best of both worlds - keep the person alive, exchange him for one of your own then kill him later at your leisure. To make sure everybody gets the message loud and clear, leave enough clues to make it obvious you were behind it, so everyone can see what happens to traitors. 

 

It's an idea that's been around for a while - as Voltaire's Candide pointed out:

 

You conveniently left out the first argument. If they want to send a message to traitors to Russia, why only give him 18 years in prison? But I know why you left that out. Because it completely destroys your argument. 

[maximillian]

3 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

I would appear that the container is yellow, with UHU written in black.

Below the name is a small sticker where one can read:

If lost and found, please send back to Vladimir Putin, the Kremlin, Moscow, Russia.

 

Case closed.  According to The Mirror and The Sun they found Putin's passport near the scene.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, tumama said:

 

You conveniently left out the first argument. If they want to send a message to traitors to Russia, why only give him 18 years in prison? But I know why you left that out. Because it completely destroys your argument. 

I left it out because its not an argument I have made.

[maximillian]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Are Bush, Blair, Colin Powell or the CIA involved in this or was that a Quack?

 

A Quack, yes, why not Chomper ?

[GroveHillWanderer]

1 minute ago, tumama said:

 

You conveniently left out the first argument. If they want to send a message to traitors to Russia, why only give him 18 years in prison? But I know why you left that out. Because it completely destroys your argument. 

It doesn't destroy the argument at all. It didn't really matter how long they have him in prison, just so long as it was long enough to allow for the prisoner exchange to take place.

[Brunolem]

3 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

 

Of course, you can always have the best of both worlds - keep the person alive, exchange him for one of your own then kill him later at your leisure. To make sure everybody gets the message loud and clear, leave enough clues to make it obvious you were behind it, so everyone can see what happens to traitors. 

Yet, to make things a bit more convoluted, you can also:

 

- wait for 10 years before sending your message

- wait for the daughter, a Russian citizen, to be visiting her father

- send dumb and dumber to botch the operation, failing to kill their target despite using the most lethal poison available

 

Some message indeed...

[tumama]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I have disputed your assertions regarding requirements to provide proof, motives etc.

I've challenged off topic diversions.

I have pointed out your unfounded assertions regarding Russian Motives or lack of evidence. 

 

Yes you disputed it by saying:

 

Quote

Your assertion that Russia has o motive is groundless, unless of course you have some inside information.

 

Your assertion that there is no evidence is groundless, unless of course you have some inside  information.

 

So what motive and evidence do you posses? I've already stated numerous times that unless you can come with a reason why Russia wanted Skripal dead so bad that it was worth extended or new sanctions, there's no motive. And even you should be able to agree with me about there being no evidence as of yet. 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, tumama said:

 

Yes you disputed it by saying:

 

 

So what motive and evidence do you posses? I've already stated numerous times that unless you can come with a reason why Russia wanted Skripal dead so bad that it was worth extended or new sanctions, there's no motive. And even you should be able to agree with me about there being no evidence as of yet. 

 

Why do I need to produce a motive? Not even the British government need to produce a motive.

 

Your spirited defence of Russia is noted.

[tumama]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I left it out because its not an argument I have made.

 

You didn't even write that, another poster did. I'm starting to think you don't actually read what people write. 

[tumama]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

Why do I need to produce a motive? Not even the British government need to produce a motive.

 

Your spirited defence of Russia is noted.

 

You don't. But then don't come and sprout your wacky conspiracy theories here without motive or evidence. 

[ChouDoufu]

a bottle?  a vial of evil incarnate?  last time i recall that used as evidence, it was being held aloft by general powell at the united nations.

 

and then came the sexed-up dodgy dossier, which was of course used to influence allies to join the coalition of the willing.

 

that turned out so well.

 

“There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.”

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

You don't. But then don't come and sprout your wacky conspiracy theories here without motive or evidence. 

What whacky conspiracy theories?

 

Quote please.

[maximillian]

2 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

Yes you disputed it by saying:

 

 

So what motive and evidence do you posses? I've already stated numerous times that unless you can come with a reason why Russia wanted Skripal dead so bad that it was worth extended or new sanctions, there's no motive. And even you should be able to agree with me about there being no evidence as of yet. 

 

 

People living in their bubbles are not susceptible for any arguments but their own.

Nowadays accusations are same as proof and even the most farfetched motives are clear evidence for them. Save your time, not worth argueing, it's useless anyway.

[tumama]

12 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

It doesn't destroy the argument at all. It didn't really matter how long they have him in prison, just so long as it was long enough to allow for the prisoner exchange to take place.

 

I love watching people jumping through hoops to defend their pre-conceived opinions. This is a perfect example of this. 

 

Yeah like when you want to send a message to people, you don't make it mandatory life in prison without the possibility of parole.  No, that's too easy. Let's assassinate people abroad. And while we're at it, let's use an old Soviet nerve agent so our enemies can blame us and impose more sanctions on us. 

 

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

Let's keep in mind this is a murder investigation.

 

More evidence has been found. No need to leap to the defence of anyone if they are innocent. 

[Brunolem]

20 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Let's keep in mind this is a murder investigation.

 

More evidence has been found. No need to leap to the defence of anyone if they are innocent. 

I was surprised that the UK doctors had searched for poisoning substances so early in the investigation in the Skripal case, and even more that they were able to identify Novichok so quickly...as if they had been looking for it...

 

After all, in such cases, the hypothesis of poisoning often come much later...remember the Arafat case...

 

Having said that, in the Skripal case, the UK had no evidence, just deductions: Russia only manufactures Novichok, so Russia did it!

(The US only manufactures Smith and Wesson guns, so any crime commited with such a gun is automatically attributed to the US government!).

 

Anyway, these deductions, worthy of a 10 year old, or of a Boris Johnson, were enough to send Russian diplomats packing.

 

Let's jump to now, where we have a dead victim AND a poison container, that is, much more than in the Skripal case.

 

And yet...nothing!

Should we worry?

Maybe...

 

Maybe the UK is waiting for confirmation that the poison in the container is the same as the one used with Skripal, and if confirmed the UK will send missiles flying toward Moscow...

[ChouDoufu]

7 minutes ago, Spidey said:

...the government has evidence that proves that the Novichok was made in Russia....

really?  all i've seen are some reports from early april saying british authorities "believe" they have identified a lab where the agent was manufactured, however on the same day the research head at porton down said they were unable to confirm that the agent was in fact of russian origin.

 

the ocpw report stated simply that the agent was of a group of chemical agents developed by the soviets in the 70's and 80's.  they agreed with the "of a type" formulation.

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, tumama said:

 

Which is exactly what someone with no arguments would say. We've been over this before in this thread if you had bothered to read it. 

I've given the arguments and facts and evidence. You don't accept them because they don't fit in with your absurd conspiracy theories.

[tumama]

Just now, Spidey said:

I've given the arguments and facts and evidence. You don't accept them because they don't fit in with your absurd conspiracy theories.

 

No. All you have given are lies and disinformation. Let's review what you said shall we:

 

Quote

I've given a cast iron reason why the Russians would do this, I've given evidence that they have done this before, the government has evidence that proves that the Novichok was made in Russia but still some posters are in complete denial of the facts. They'd rather stick to their absurd conspiracy theories and believe Trump, a proven habitual liar and a fraud who has cast iron motives for keeping sweet with Vlad the Poisoner.

 

Good luck, you've had all the evidence, no point in arguing with whack job keyboard warriors who have the debating power of a ten year old. I'm out.

 

Cast irons reasons why they would do this, really? Can you please indulge me why they wanted this guy dead so bad it was worth all that hassle?

 

You say you don't believe in conspiracy theories, but you somehow think that Trump has a reason to be pro Russian, care to elaborate?

 

You said you were out, did you not? So why are you still here?

[Chomper Higgot]

5 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Just look for behaviour and posting that is indicative of pro-Russian propaganda (and conspiracy theories).

 

Especially look to see if the same individuals post pro-Russia propaganda (and conspiracy theories) across multiple threads.

 

Know them by their own words.

 

#WalksLike 

#QuacksLike 

 

My personal views on this latest development in this case are expressed in post #7, I base these on my own in-depth knowledge of chemical analysis and in particular Chromatography.

 

 

I'm sticking to the above.

[ChouDoufu]

8 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Appart from securing a highly toxic substance (good news for everyone in the area), the substance can now be analysed.

 

Analysis by chromatography will reveal trace impurities (chemical fingerprints) that may be compared with the chemical samples recovered from the original attack on the Skripals and with samples from any other attack/source world wide.

 

In the first instance this will confirm or otherwise if the Skripal attack and this latest death are linked by a poison from the same source.

 

Comparison with other samples will provide further cross references increasing certainty on where the chemical came from.

 

This is very good news for the people in the area, excellent news for the investigation.

does this mean the authorities have NOT identified the source? 

 

the ocpw report stated the samples were of high purity with no impurities, and no way to link to any country, much less specific laboratory.

 

that would explain why the rules change is needed to allow the ocpw to assign blame.

[tumama]

2 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

does this mean the authorities have NOT identified the source? 

 

the ocpw report stated the samples were of high purity with no impurities, and no way to link to any country, much less specific laboratory.

 

that would explain why the rules change is needed to allow the ocpw to assign blame.

 

Yeah the only way to identify the source would be to have samples to compare it to. Since Russia claims they have none, it's impossible to tie them to this attack from a chemistry point of view. Unless, an inspection would locate it at a Russian facility. Which is highly unlikely. 

 

The new rules are interesting. I'm hoping whatever the evidence that U.K provide to OCPW will become public.

[Brunolem]

20 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I've given the definitive reason why they would want this guy dead. I'm not in the habit of repeating myself to someone who is incapable of comprehension.

Your "definitive reason":

 

 

"The Russians released Skripal on a spy exchange. Something the Russians did begrudgingly. Putin wants to send a message to Russian defectors that his arms are very long and will reach them, wherever they are."

 

I would call that an assumption, at best, not a convincing argument, and obviously not a proof.

In matters of conflict resolution and in trials, things are a bit more complicated than that.

Bold statements, involving attributing thoughts or intentions to others, aren't enough to make a point.

 

You have not given a definitive reason, but only a possible reason, and a very debatable one at that.

 

[ChouDoufu]

29 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

Yeah the only way to identify the source would be to have samples to compare it to. Since Russia claims they have none, it's impossible to tie them to this attack from a chemistry point of view. Unless, an inspection would locate it at a Russian facility. Which is highly unlikely. 

 

The new rules are interesting. I'm hoping whatever the evidence that U.K provide to OCPW will become public.

wonder if they will let the ocpw compare the contents of the vials to the samples maintained at porton down.

 

agree the new rules are interesting.  allows blame to be assigned by popular vote, rather than evidence based, which would come in handy for the debunked syrian attacks.

 

as to russian motive, why kill an ex-spy already traded?  wouldn't that go against the convention of exchanged spies being off limits?  that would preclude russia from ever exchanging spies in the future.  certainly more effective ways of getting the point across that won't result in sanctions or other negative consequences.

[kannot]

5 hours ago, sammieuk1 said:

Its ok I took my door knob off.

Im even more secure I removed the whole front door!! Thatll stop em, cunning  eh

[ChouDoufu]

6 minutes ago, Spidey said:

...Finally, the OCPW wouldn't apportion blame for the attack to any party as it wasn't "within their remit"

I suspect that they will do the same with the Novichuk attack, they may well confirm that it was Novichuk but will refuse to confirm the source. Bunch of wusses....

only bothering to respond to this bit.....

 

it's not in their remit.  exactly.  to avoid politicizing the results.  otherwise political blocs will hijack the organization for nefarious purposes, like justifying regime change operations.  as it currently stands, regimes have to create their own "dossiers" for their disinformation campaigns without support from the ocpw.

 

"confirming the source" does not equate to confirming the responsible party.  it's additional evidence, but not definitive. however, seeing as how they admit they are unable to identify the source, we're nowhere near that point.  all we have is a substance within a group of substances that were first developed nearly 50 years ago.

 

[Spidey]

Just now, ChouDoufu said:

only bothering to respond to this bit.....

 

it's not in their remit.  exactly.  to avoid politicizing the results.  otherwise political blocs will hijack the organization for nefarious purposes, like justifying regime change operations.  as it currently stands, regimes have to create their own "dossiers" for their disinformation campaigns without support from the ocpw.

 

"confirming the source" does not equate to confirming the responsible party.  it's additional evidence, but not definitive. however, seeing as how they admit they are unable to identify the source, we're nowhere near that point.  all we have is a substance within a group of substances that were first developed nearly 50 years ago.

 

It was the Russians wot did it! Get over it!

[Brunolem]

25 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

 

 

"confirming the source" does not equate to confirming the responsible party.  it's additional evidence, but not definitive. however, seeing as how they admit they are unable to identify the source, we're nowhere near that point.  all we have is a substance within a group of substances that were first developed nearly 50 years ago.

 

As if on cue...this from the former UK ambassador to Russia...obviously he doesn't know as much as some TV members, but it is always interesting to know his position...

 

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/07/14/holes-in-official-skripal-story.html

[chickenslegs]

5 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

As if on cue...this from the former UK ambassador to Russia...obviously he doesn't know as much as some TV members, but it is always interesting to know his position...

 

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/07/14/holes-in-official-skripal-story.html

Is "Strategic Culture Foundation" some sort of credible independent news source?

 

I think not - Look at its list of authors ... https://www.strategic-culture.org/authors.html?l=A