tumama Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 17 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: In other words, you're not prepared to name the posters you say are "Russian propaganda merchants"...., but prefer to rely on smear tactics, hoping to incriminate everyone that dares ask questions ☹️. If you're not prepared to name posters that are "Russian propaganda merchants" - perhaps it would be better to discuss the topic in a civil manner, rather than resorting to the childish, playground tactics of name-calling? i.e. anyone with a different opinion is a "Russian propaganda merchant"..... It's a classic technique to do this when you're out of arguments. Shows what kind of level of maturity and brain cells we are dealing with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, tumama said: It's a classic technique to do this when you're out of arguments. Shows what kind of level of maturity and brain cells we are dealing with. I'll refer you to post .7 See how you get along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smedly Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 2 hours ago, tumama said: The point is, just because it's a nerve agent invented by the Soviet Union, doesn't mean Russia was behind it. The formula is freely available on the Internet. While it's not difficult to make, it is highly dangerous to. oh dear, sure set up an ebay shop and sell it, I'm sure you will have plenty of customers ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overherebc Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 3 hours ago, mtls2005 said: Polonium-210 martini, shaken not stirred. Shaken not stored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 Just now, tumama said: It's a classic technique to do this when you're out of arguments. Shows what kind of level of maturity and brain cells we are dealing with. Just now, Chomper Higgot said: I'll refer you to post .7 See how you get along. 3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said: Appart from securing a highly toxic substance (good news for everyone in the area), the substance can now be analysed. Analysis by chromatography will reveal trace impurities (chemical fingerprints) that may be compared with the chemical samples recovered from the original attack on the Skripals and with samples from any other attack/source world wide. In the first instance this will confirm or otherwise if the Skripal attack and this latest death are linked by a poison from the same source. Comparison with other samples will provide further cross references increasing certainty on where the chemical came from. This is very good news for the people in the area, excellent news for the investigation. It would have been so much easier if you had made the effort to quote your own post 7, rather than making the rest of us trawl back to find it.... Putting this aside, I've no idea how this exempts you from blame for accusing other posters of being "Russian propaganda merchants" because they dare to ask questions.... I've no doubt that your post 7 is extremely informative as to chemical analysis, but it goes nowhere near explaining how this chemical ended up in the latest victims' house or, come to that, anything else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 8 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: It would have been so much easier if you had made the effort to quote your own post 7, rather than making the rest of us trawl back to find it.... Putting this aside, I've no idea how this exempts you from blame for accusing other posters of being "Russian propaganda merchants" because they dare to ask questions.... I've no doubt that your post 7 is extremely informative as to chemical analysis, but it goes nowhere near explaining how this chemical ended up in the latest victims' house or, come to that, anything else! "It would have been so much easier if you had made the effort to quote your own post 7, rather than making the rest of us trawl back to find it...." From sensitive to precious was not an improvement. Post .7 observes that with access to samples from the Skripal case and the recent murder case, the investigators can first determine if there is an actual link (ie that the exact same poison from the same source was applied). The investigators can also compare these samples with those from other poisonings and other samples from around the world. [Technical note: Once the elements of the compound have been examined by Chromatography, the analysis trace itself is a record of the compound. Much like a DNA test provides a result that is recordable and shareable. Therefore once the analysis is complete this can be compared with results from around the world.] I look forward to comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 10 minutes ago, tumama said: It's a classic technique to do this when you're out of arguments. Shows what kind of level of maturity and brain cells we are dealing with. I seem to have spent my life repeating that most people are incapable/prefer not to think for themselves ☹️. To be fair, I can understand this as most aren't particularly intelligent and have more than enough of their own problems to deal with - so it's easier to rely on whichever source of media/political party suits their mind-set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tumama Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said: I look forward to comments. What's there to comment about? You're just pointing out the obvious. I'd be extremely surprised if this batch is not the same used against Skripal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said: I seem to have spent my life repeating that most people are incapable/prefer not to think for themselves ☹️. To be fair, I can understand this as most aren't particularly intelligent and have more than enough of their own problems to deal with - so it's easier to rely on whichever source of media/political party suits their mind-set. If you've gone through life observing a common difficulty you have with others it may not be them but the common factor in each encounter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 Just now, tumama said: What's there to comment about? You're just pointing out the obvious. I'd be extremely surprised if this batch is not the same used against Skripal. And if its the same as used in other attacks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brunolem Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 10 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: i.e. anyone with a different opinion is a "Russian propaganda merchant".... ? People who confuse emotions with facts generally have few or no arguments to defend their position. Thus, they quickly become angry, resort to belittling, name calling, or sometime something worse. If you don't share their opinion, not only you are wrong, but you are the enemy! If you don't believe in God, then you are with Satan...if you criticize Antifa, then you are with the White Supremacists...if you don't support Hillary, then you are a Russian stooge...if you don't believe that Putin is bent on destroying the UK by poisoning its population, then you are paid by the Kremlin... Fanatics are just people who push such "reasoning" one step further. Wise people, on the other hand, stick to the facts, not on assumptions such as "if Russia is the only country manufacturing this poison (totally wrong by the way), then it is obviously the culprit!". Just imagine how many innocent people would end up in jail if the justice system was delivering sentences based on such kind of "evidence"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tumama Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said: And if its the same as used in other attacks? Then I'd be extremely surprised. Really have nothing else to add other than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, Brunolem said: People who confuse emotions with facts generally have few or no arguments to defend their position. Thus, they quickly become angry, resort to belittling, name calling, or sometime something worse. If you don't share their opinion, not only you are wrong, but you are the enemy! If you don't believe in God, then you are with Satan...if you criticize Antifa, then you are with the White Supremacists...if you don't support Hillary, then you are a Russian stooge...if you don't believe that Putin is bent on destroying the UK by poisoning its population, then you are paid by the Kremlin... Fanatics are just people who push such "reasoning" one step further. Wise people, on the other hand, stick to the facts, not on assumptions such as "if Russia is the only country manufacturing this poison (totally wrong by the way), then it is obviously the culprit!". Just imagine how many innocent people would end up in jail if the justice system was delivering sentences based on such kind of "evidence"... Like the fact that this is a diplomatic spat relating to an attack that took place in the UK and the British government is under absolutely no duty of burden of proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tumama Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said: Like the fact that this is a diplomatic spat relating to an attack that took place in the UK and the British government is under absolutely no duty of burden of proof. They are if they want the OPCW to pin it on Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 21 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: It would have been so much easier if you had made the effort to quote your own post 7, rather than making the rest of us trawl back to find it.... Putting this aside, I've no idea how this exempts you from blame for accusing other posters of being "Russian propaganda merchants" because they dare to ask questions.... I've no doubt that your post 7 is extremely informative as to chemical analysis, but it goes nowhere near explaining how this chemical ended up in the latest victims' house or, come to that, anything else! 13 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said: "It would have been so much easier if you had made the effort to quote your own post 7, rather than making the rest of us trawl back to find it...." From sensitive to precious was not an improvement. Post .7 observes that with access to samples from the Skripal case and the recent murder case, the investigators can first determine if there is an actual link (ie that the exact same poison from the same source was applied). The investigators can also compare these samples with those from other poisonings and other samples from around the world. [Technical note: Once the elements of the compound have been examined by Chromatography, the analysis trace itself is a record of the compound. Much like a DNA test provides a result that is recordable and shareable. Therefore once the analysis is complete this can be compared with results from around the world.] I look forward to comments. Firstly, it's not "precious" pointing out that you should have quoted your own post, rather than expecting everyone else to trawl back to find your post.... Secondly, as far as I can see, nobody is disputing your chemical analysis techniques. Thirdly ? (yes, I'm finding this funny) - you're ignoring everything other than chemical analysis techniques! No attempt to defend your accusing other (un-named) posters of being "Russian propaganda merchants". No attempt at explaining any of the other questionable points about this fiasco either..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 Just now, tumama said: They are if they want the OPCW to pin it on Russia. No. And you've failed to demonstrate that to be true in the past. Russia are however under the OPCW required to respond to the UK's assistance when the UK asks for such assistance in the aftermath of an attack in the UK. The OPCW provides absolutely no reason for Russia to demand 'proof' or 'evidence' from the UK before meeting their (Russia's) obligations under OPCW. Since there is no possible arbitration the whole thing remains a diplomatic spat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tumama Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said: No. And you've failed to demonstrate that to be true in the past. Russia are however under the OPCW required to respond to the UK's assistance when the UK asks for such assistance in the aftermath of an attack in the UK. The OPCW provides absolutely no reason for Russia to demand 'proof' or 'evidence' from the UK before meeting their (Russia's) obligations under OPCW. Since there is no possible arbitration the whole thing remains a diplomatic spat. I'm not referring to that. OPCW's role has never been to assign blame, until recently when U.K put forward a vote that changes that (after Sulisbury), and the vote passed. So if they want OPCW to assign blame to Russia, they would need to present evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: Firstly, it's not "precious" that pointing out that you should have quoted your own post, rather than expecting everyone else to trawl back to find your post.... Secondly, as far as I can see, nobody is disputing your chemical analysis techniques. Thirdly ? (yes, I'm finding this funny) - you're ignoring everything other than chemical analysis techniques! No attempt to defend your accusing other (un-named) posters of being "Russian propaganda merchants". No attempt at explaining any of the other questionable points about this fiasco either..... Forgive me not cluttering the board by repeating whole texts that I have already posted, and sorry that navigating back to a post for which you have the post number is such a problem for you. The only new development in this now murder case is the recovery of the poison, my post .7 makes observations on what good news that is to the local people and the investigation. I can't see a lot else to focus on. If I name people then absolutely I should provide evidence and an explanation. If I point out behaviours then either those behaviours exist or they do not. I'm either right or wrong. Know the pro-Russia propaganda and Conspiracy theorists by their own words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, tumama said: I'm not referring to that. OPCW's role has never been to assign blame, until recently when U.K put forward a vote that changes that (after Sulisbury), and the vote passed. So if they want OPCW to assign blame to Russia, they would need to present evidence. Has the UK asked the OPCW to blame Russia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tumama Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said: Has the UK asked the OPCW to blame Russia? Not that I know. First they need to present evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brunolem Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said: Know the pro-Russia propaganda and Conspiracy theorists by their own words. You have turned the facts on their head here! Russia and its so-called "propagandists" have no theory, even less a conspiracy theory...they simply reject the UK's theory, which is based on nothing else than assumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 Just now, Chomper Higgot said: Forgive me not cluttering the board by repeating whole texts that I have already posted, and sorry that navigating back to a post for which you have the post number is such a problem for you. The only new development in this now murder case is the recovery of the poison, my post .7 makes observations on what good news that is to the local people and the investigation. I can't see a lot else to focus on. If I name people then absolutely I should provide evidence and an explanation. If I point out behaviours then either those behaviours exist or they do not. I'm either right or wrong. Know the pro-Russia propaganda and Conspiracy theorists by their own words. "Know the pro-Russia propaganda and Conspiracy theorists by their own words." Which brings us back to asking you to name those posters that are "Russian propaganda merchants". ? Understandably, you have no intention of doing so as it's pure smear tactics - lacking any reasonable response to the obvious questions raised..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, tumama said: Not that I know. First they need to present evidence. Putting aside that I know of no requirement for the UK to produce evidence (link if you do). I'm not sure why the UK would produce evidence first, surely even by your own argument below, the UK would present a complain with the evidence. Until, by your argument, the UK makes a complaint there can be no requirement for evidence (link if you know of one). "So if they want OPCW to assign blame to Russia, they would need to present evidence." 11 minutes ago, tumama said: I'm not referring to that. OPCW's role has never been to assign blame, until recently when U.K put forward a vote that changes that (after Sulisbury), and the vote passed. So if they want OPCW to assign blame to Russia, they would need to present evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene1960 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 No telling what the FSB capable of doing, certainly planting stuff in many places to deflect accusations against them, been done before so no surprises there...I would add a couple of three letters for you to google. GRU and SVR. FSB is a sort of MI5, a homeland security service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tumama Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, Brunolem said: You have turned the facts on their head here! Russia and its so-called "propagandists" have no theory, even less a conspiracy theory...they simply reject the UK's theory, which is based on nothing else than assumptions. Actually, by definition U.K's theory is also a conspiracy theory. And a baseless one at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: "Know the pro-Russia propaganda and Conspiracy theorists by their own words." Which brings us back to asking you to name those posters that are "Russian propaganda merchants". ? Understandably, you have no intention of doing so as it's pure smear tactics - lacking any reasonable response to the obvious questions raised..... DD, I'm not naming people - accept that. I have pointed out behaviours - accept that. If I name someone then yes that might be a smear, but if someone spends their own time and effort spreading conspiracy theories and pro-Russia propaganda then they expose themselves by their own words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, tumama said: Actually, by definition U.K's theory is also a conspiracy theory. And a baseless one at that. Erm no. Its actually and on going murder investigation. Perhaps as good a reason to avoid hair brained speculation as any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tumama Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said: Putting aside that I know of no requirement for the UK to produce evidence (link if you do). I'm not sure why the UK would produce evidence first, surely even by your own argument below, the UK would present a complain with the evidence. Until, by your argument, the UK makes a complaint there can be no requirement for evidence (link if you know of one). "So if they want OPCW to assign blame to Russia, they would need to present evidence." I don't know why you are arguing about this. Yes, they would have to present the evidence when they make the complaint I presume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tumama Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said: Erm no. Its actually and on going murder investigation. Perhaps as good a reason to avoid hair brained speculation as any. Quote con·spir·a·cy the·o·ry noun a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event. I very much agree that speculation should be avoided. I only wish the British government would agree with that. Glad to see that this second "attack" they didn't jump to blame Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammieuk1 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said: The Russian propaganda merchants are going to be all over you like a nasty rash. Its ok I took my door knob off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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