UK police find source of Novichok nerve agent in small bottle

[Brunolem]

10 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

I certainly doubt the UK Government would act without taking advice and report from security and intelligence agencies.

 

Earth to CH...like all the other Western European vassals, the UK gets its marching orders from Washington!

 

And US agencies are more than willing to provide all the required "evidence", no matter how flimsy or absurd it may be...

[tumama]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Not getting anywhere with the subject under discussion I see.

 

Avoiding my question I see. 

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, tumama said:

 

Avoiding my question I see. 

No, I'm avoiding you dragging the discussion off track into some, how shall I put it, 'dark and strange theory' as to what is going on here.

 

If you  want to say the Iraq war brought the credibility of the UK and US governments into question - yes I agree.

 

If you want to say the governments of the UK and US have not been changed since and that no lessons have been learned then no I disagree. 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Earth to CH...like all the other Western European vassals, the UK gets its marching orders from Washington!

 

And US agencies are more than willing to provide all the required "evidence", no matter how flimsy or absurd it may be???

Quack!

[tumama]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

No, I'm avoiding you dragging the discussion off track into some, how shall I put it, 'dark and strange theory' as to what is going on here.

 

If you  want to say the Iraq war brought the credibility of the UK and US governments into question - yes I agree.

 

If you want to say the governments of the UK and US have not been changed since and that no lessons have been learned then no I disagree. 

 

You had no problem discussing the expulsion of the diplomats before, so why now? Did you even bother to read the following sentences after the Iraq war? 

 

You said:

 

Quote

I certainly doubt the UK Government would act without taking advice and report from security and intelligence agencies.

 

But above you agree this is what happened. But now you still doubt they would do it again. I don't see Blair locked up as he should be. If you can lie and/or commit crimes and get away with it, why wouldn't you? Hell I would. 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

You had no problem discussing the expulsion of the diplomats before, so why now? Did you even bother to read the following sentences after the Iraq war? 

 

You said:

 

 

But above you agree this is what happened. But now you still doubt they would do it again. I don't see Blair locked up as he should be. If you can commit crimes and get away with it, why wouldn't you? Hell I would. 

 

Is Blair still the PM?

 

I missed that.

 

[tumama]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Is Blair still the PM?

 

I missed that.

 

Playing dumb are we? I kinda miss you going into ad hominem attacks

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

Playing dumb are we? I kinda miss you going into ad hominem attacks

Parse that.

[tumama]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Parse that.

 

Jesus, I have to spell it out for you. You're out of arguments again. And instead of resorting to ad hominem attacks like before, which you were very much criticized for, you instead opt to play stupid. 

[Chomper Higgot]

So the police have located the poison behind the latest death (now officially designated as a murder) and the boys and girls at Portland Down will be busy analysing the poison to compare it with that used against the Skripals and against samples from other chemical  weapon attacks world wide.

 

Great news for the local people, great news for the investigation.

 

Not good news for the perpetrator(s) and their defenders. [Whosoever they may be].

[tumama]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

So the police have located the poison behind the latest death (now officially designated as a murder) and the boys and girls at Portland Down will be busy analysing the poison to compare it with that used against the Skripals and against samples from other chemical  weapon attacks world wide.

 

Great news for the local people, great news for the investigation.

 

Not good news for the perpetrator(s) and their defenders.

 

So much for you saying we shouldn't be speculating. Also love it how you try to change the subject by inserting something completely irrelevant into the discussion. 

[tumama]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

[Whosoever they may be].

 

That's better. 

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

So much for you saying we shouldn't be speculating. Also love it how you try to change the subject by inserting something completely irrelevant into the discussion. 

Post .131 is completely relevant to the topic of discussion (unlike your detour via Iraq).

[tumama]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Post .131 is completely relevant to the topic of contestation (unlike your detour via Iraq).

 

That wasn't a detour. That was an example of how your government not only lied to you, but also how they claimed they had intelligence when they didn't. But I can see how you don't like being reminded about the Iraq war, because it completely destroys your argument. 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

That wasn't a detour. That was an example of how your government not only lied to you, but also how they claimed they had intelligence when they didn't. But I can see how you don't like being reminded about the Iraq war, because it completely destroys your argument. 

The Iraq war is completely irrelevant, as is Tony Blair, Assange etc, post .131 is absolutely  relevant to the latest developments in the ongoing murder investigation.

 

Read it and tell me which bits you disagree with.

 

 

[tumama]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The Iraq war is completely irrelevant, as is Tony Blair, Assange etc, post .131 is absolutely  relevant to the latest developments in the ongoing murder investigation.

 

Read it and tell me which bits you disagree with.

 I would read it if you posted a link. Every post has one. It's not hard to right click and paste you know.

 

So an example where your government not only lied to you, but also how they claimed they had intelligence when they didn't isn't relevant? So using the same logic, whatever Russia or Putin has done before is also not relevant, right?

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, tumama said:

 I would read it if you posted a link. Every post has one. It's not hard to right click and paste you know.

 

So an example where your government not only lied to you, but also how they claimed they had intelligence when they didn't isn't relevant? So using the same logic, whatever Russia or Putin has done before is also not relevant, right?

Where is your evidence that the UK government does not have intelligence regarding this attack?

 

Just because they never sent it to you.

 

They certainly convinced a number of other nations to act against Russia - what's your explanation for that?

[tumama]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Where is your evidence that the UK government does not have intelligence regarding this attack?

 

Just because they never sent it to you.

 

They certainly convinced a number of other nations to act against Russia - what's your explanation for that?

 

I don't. But I know your government lied to you in the past. So why believe them now? Especially in a case like this where Russia has zero motive to carry out such an attack. You know, one English woman just died. One would think you would want the police to find the culprits and for your government not to use this as a political tool. 

 

Sure they did, but like I demonstrated earlier, that was based on a lie. Which is probably why they lied about it to begin with, because most likely, without that lie they wouldn't have gotten other countries to expel those diplomats. 

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, tumama said:

 

I don't. But I know your government lied to you in the past. So why believe them now? Especially in a case like this where Russia has zero motive to carry out such an attack. You know, one English woman just died. One would think you would want the police to find the culprits and for your government not to use this as a political tool. 

 

Sure they did, but like I demonstrated earlier, that was based on a lie. Which is probably why they lied about it to begin with, because without that lie they wouldn't have gotten other countries to expel those diplomats. 

Quote

I don't.....

Your assertion that Russia has no motive is unfound, but I am sure is an assertion  Russia would itself make.

 

Yes one would think you would want the police to find the culprits - hence the ongoing police investigation (now a murder inquiry).

 

Your assertion that the UK government convinced other nations to act on the basis of a lie, flies in the face of your arguments regarding Iraq.

 

 

 

[Spidey]

2 hours ago, tumama said:

 

If they want to send a message, then why give Skripal only 18 years? In US you'd get life without the possibility of parole. Not a very harsh message they're sending there. 

 

Russia has a history of using Novichok? Really? Have anything to back that up with or did you just make it up?

 

Poisoning of Ivan Kivelidi and Zara Ismailova

 

Supposed Novichok agent formula from the forensic analysis in the Kivelidi case^[73]

The forerunner of Novichok agents, substance-33 (frequently also referred to simply as "Novichok")^[74] has been reportedly used in 1995 to poison Russian banker Ivan Kivelidi (ru), the head of the Russian Business Round Table, with close ties to the then Russian Prime Minister Viktor Chernomyrdin,^[75] and Zara Ismailova, his secretary.^{[76][77][78][79][80]}Russian opposition-linked historians Yuri Felshtinsky and Vladimir Pribylovsky speculated that the murder became "one of the first in the series of poisonings organized by Russia's security services". The Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs analysed the substance and announced that it was "a phosphorus-based military-grade nerve agent"^[81] "whose formula was strictly classified".^[81] According to Nesterov, the administrative head of Shikhany, he did not know of "a single case of such poison being sold illegally" and noted that the poison "is used by professional spies".^[81]

Vladimir Khutsishvili, a former business partner of the banker, was subsequently convicted of the killings.^[76] According to The Independent, "A closed trial found that his business partner had obtained the substance via intermediaries from an employee of the State Research Institute of Organic Chemistry and Technology (ru) (GosNIIOKhT),^[82] which was involved in the development of Novichoks. However, Khutsishvilli, who claimed that he was innocent, had not been detained at the time of the trial and freely left the country. He was only arrested in 2006 after he returned to Russia, believing that the ten-year old case was closed.^[81] According to Felshtinsky and Pribylovsky, Khutsishvilli was framed for the murder by Russia's security services, which had access to the chemical agent, and used it to organise the murder on the orders of a senior Russian state official.^[81]

The employee of GosNIIOKhT, Leonard Rink, received a one-year suspended sentence for selling Novichok agents to unnamed buyers "of Chechen ethnicity" soon after the poisoning of Kivelidi and Izmailova."^[83][84]

[maximillian]

6 hours ago, smedly said:

not sure what your point is exactly but this stuff definitely is not sold in Tesco 

 

Wodka miniature bottles not sold at Tesco ?

[tumama]

12 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Your assertion that Russia has no motive is unfound, but I am sure is an assertion  Russia would itself make.

 

Yes one would think you would want the police to find the culprits - hence the ongoing police investigation (now a murder inquiry).

 

Your assertion that the UK government convinced other nations to act on the basis of a lie, flies in the face of your arguments regarding Iraq.

 

Unless the British authorities can demonstrate why Russia wanted this guy dead so bad that it was worth the cost of more or extended sanctions, there really is no motive. Any prosecutor would agree. There's no motive and no evidence, it would not even lead to prosecution. Yeah of course Russia comes to the same conclusion as me, because it's the only reasonable one.

 

Great, you want that. The problem with that though is that your government has already concluded who the culprit is without waiting for the investigation to be over.

 

How does it fly in the face of my argument? Boris said, we know for sure it originated from Russia, Porton Down told us so. The other countries took his word for it before the lied was exposed. The two countries that did expel diplomats after that Porton Down announcement, could possibly have made that decision before, but announced it later. 

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, tumama said:

 

Unless the British authorities can demonstrate why Russia wanted this guy dead so bad that it was worth the cost of more or extended sanctions, there really is no motive. Any prosecutor would agree. There's no motive and no evidence, it would not even lead to prosecution. Yeah of course Russia comes to the same conclusion as me, because it's the only reasonable one.

 

Great, you want that. The problem with that though is that your government has already concluded who the culprit is without waiting for the investigation to be over.

 

How does it fly in the face of my argument? Boris said, we know for sure it originated from Russia, Porton Down told us so. The other countries took his word for it before the lied was exposed. The two countries that did expel diplomats after that Porton Down announcement, could possibly have made that decision before, but announced it later. 

Where is the obligation  for the British authorities to produce a Russian motive?

[tumama]

19 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Poisoning of Ivan Kivelidi and Zara Ismailova

 

Supposed Novichok agent formula from the forensic analysis in the Kivelidi case^[73]

The forerunner of Novichok agents, substance-33 (frequently also referred to simply as "Novichok")^[74] has been reportedly used in 1995 to poison Russian banker Ivan Kivelidi (ru), the head of the Russian Business Round Table, with close ties to the then Russian Prime Minister Viktor Chernomyrdin,^[75] and Zara Ismailova, his secretary.^{[76][77][78][79][80]}Russian opposition-linked historians Yuri Felshtinsky and Vladimir Pribylovsky speculated that the murder became "one of the first in the series of poisonings organized by Russia's security services". The Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs analysed the substance and announced that it was "a phosphorus-based military-grade nerve agent"^[81] "whose formula was strictly classified".^[81] According to Nesterov, the administrative head of Shikhany, he did not know of "a single case of such poison being sold illegally" and noted that the poison "is used by professional spies".^[81]

Vladimir Khutsishvili, a former business partner of the banker, was subsequently convicted of the killings.^[76] According to The Independent, "A closed trial found that his business partner had obtained the substance via intermediaries from an employee of the State Research Institute of Organic Chemistry and Technology (ru) (GosNIIOKhT),^[82] which was involved in the development of Novichoks. However, Khutsishvilli, who claimed that he was innocent, had not been detained at the time of the trial and freely left the country. He was only arrested in 2006 after he returned to Russia, believing that the ten-year old case was closed.^[81] According to Felshtinsky and Pribylovsky, Khutsishvilli was framed for the murder by Russia's security services, which had access to the chemical agent, and used it to organise the murder on the orders of a senior Russian state official.^[81]

The employee of GosNIIOKhT, Leonard Rink, received a one-year suspended sentence for selling Novichok agents to unnamed buyers "of Chechen ethnicity" soon after the poisoning of Kivelidi and Izmailova."^[83][84]

 

That's one case. And the Wikipedia article clearly uses the word "speculates". Back in 1995, Russia was bordering on a failed state. Not saying it couldn't have been the government who did it. But I'm saying it could have been anyone. And it certainly doesn't back up the assertion that the Russian government has a history of using Novichok.

 

 

[Brunolem]

4 minutes ago, tumama said:

Boris said, we know for sure it originated from Russia

Is Russia also responsible for his haircut?

[tumama]

10 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Where is the obligation  for the British authorities to produce a Russian motive?

 

There is no obligation. My point is that there's no motive and no evidence, so there's no reason to think that the Russians were behind it. You on the other hand, will just swallow anything blindly. If Porton Down didn't release that statement you would be arguing right here that it's a fact the nerve agent was produced in Russia. 

 

And I mentioned kudos to Porton Down before. They deserved that. We all saw what happened to Dr Kelly. 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, tumama said:

 

There is no obligation. My point is that there's no motive and no evidence, so there's no reason to think that the Russians were behind it. You on the other hand, will just swallow anything blindly. If Porton Down didn't release that statement you would be arguing right here that it's a fact the nerve agent was produced in Russia. 

 

Correct, there is no obligation. 

 

Your assertion that Russia has o motive is groundless, unless of course you have some inside information.

 

Your assertion that there is no evidence is groundless, unless of course you have some inside  information.

 

My thoughts on where  the nerve agent came from are expressed in post .7

 

 

[tumama]

11 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Correct, there is no obligation. 

 

Your assertion that Russia has o motive is groundless, unless of course you have some inside information.

 

Your assertion that there is no evidence is groundless, unless of course you have some inside  information.

 

My thoughts on where  the nerve agent came from are expressed in post .7

 

So all your arguments are based on information they might posses that we don't have. Essentially you blindly believe your government despite the fact that they lied to you in the past and they lied about the origins of the nerve agent. Fool me once, fool me twice, fool me... yeah just keep fooling me, I don't care.

[GroveHillWanderer]

6 hours ago, tumama said:

Can't tell if that's sarcasm. If not, what would be the motive to do that? If they wanted to send a message to traitors, then why did they only give him 18 years in jail? Or why not just kill him in prison? Makes no sense whatsoever. 

Because you can't exchange a dead double agent with your enemies to get one of your own agents back (which is what they did with Skripal). It's the same principle that the US used with Rudolf Abel back in the 50's. Although many in the US wanted Abel to be given the death penalty, as Abel's attorney put it:

 

Quote

 "It is possible that in the foreseeable future an American of equivalent rank will be captured by Soviet Russia or an ally; at such time an exchange of prisoners through diplomatic channels could be considered to be in the best national interests of the United States." 

Of course, you can always have the best of both worlds - keep the person alive, exchange him for one of your own then kill him later at your leisure. To make sure everybody gets the message loud and clear, leave enough clues to make it obvious you were behind it, so everyone can see what happens to traitors. 

 

It's an idea that's been around for a while - as Voltaire's Candide pointed out:

 

Quote

il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres.  (it's good to kill an admiral from time to time, to encourage the others).

 

[Brunolem]

20 minutes ago, maximillian said:

 

Wodka miniature bottles not sold at Tesco ?

I would appear that the container is yellow, with UHU written in black.

Below the name is a small sticker where one can read:

If lost and found, please send back to Vladimir Putin, the Kremlin, Moscow, Russia.