Trump invites Putin to Washington despite U.S. uproar on Helsinki summit

[xylophone]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

Now what I can't understand about the Trump supporters is their unswerving devotion to this mindless moron. Surely by now, with all that has been proven (lies, deceit, misogyny, racism, fraud) and with the constant and ongoing lies, you'd have thought that any reasonable/decent minded person would have pulled support by now, but no, still they persist...….perhaps they have the same mental capacity and low morals as this idiot??

But no-one has replied to this above which was the main point of my post.

 

All have seen and heard him lie and it has been well documented; he had to admit to the "p@ssy grabbing" quote, so proof he said it; doesn't know any porn stars who are suing him, but his lawyer paid out big dollars to one and there's a pic of him with her; in front of the world he defended a hostile foreign country whilst denigrating his own...…...his list of lies, bankruptcies, frauds, racism and lack of intelligence goes on and on.

 

So what self respecting person would support him?? No answers to the original question so far...….I wonder why?

[BB1958]

I do not do things your way, I do them the intelligent way...

[Ramen087]

Putin, Trump work out a Syria refugee deal...another step forward at the summit.Topic related, too.

 

https://nypost.com/2018/07/20/russia-trump-and-putin-worked-out-syrian-refugee-deal-during-summit/

 

Just another small step forward, but they're adding up. Go Mr. President, Go!

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, tumama said:

Yet the Russians don't mind when Putin meets with Trump after the alleged American meddling into their election.

 

 

The Time article from 1996 described how Yeltsin used US advisers to help him run a US style media campaign in the Russian election.  A bigger factor in the election was that the oligarchs who controlled the media supported Yeltsin; they didn't want to return to communism or anything like it.  Yeltsin won with a 13% margin. 

 

Not really equivalent to what Russia is being accused of, is it?

[Opl]

2 hours ago, Ramen087 said:

No.. But I am not going to help you with the inference. Have a wonderful life.

I'm helping you.. Watch Trump ( 1:05).. Don't laugh, this is serious , this was ahead of Helsinki summit , before Trump misspoke, all that you know… 

" Trump sought to reassure his Montana audience that all will be well in Helsinki, media doubts about his competence to take the Kremlin boss on tête-à-tête notwithstanding. As he explained, with the full range of bizarre Trumpian hand-gestures and mocking voice alterations: “They’re going, ‘Will President Trump be prepared, you know, President Putin is KGB and this and that’ … You know what? Putin’s fine. He’s fine. We’re all fine. We’re people. Will I be prepared? Totally prepared. I’ve been preparing for this stuff my whole life.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trump-putin-summit-us-russia-helsinki-fine-montana-rally-elizabeth-warren-finland-a8434236.html

[Opl]

4 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

Trump is obviously a moron. But anyone who thinks that a sitting US president is under the control of a foreign government, without any proof of such, is an even greater moron. People like that are no better than believers in Pizzagate. 

It is difficult to say - from the U.S part what happened behind closed doors in Finland when Trump met Putin solo, but one thing is sure, Putin is the one actually in control of the narrative of the summit, and per se this is a sort of deviancy. People who need more proof deserve what they get. 

 

[Brunolem]

8 minutes ago, Opl said:

but one thing is sure, Putin is the one actually in control of the narrative of the summit, 

Well, if Putin can be in control of the narrative in a meeting involving Trump, then maybe they could bring him to Washington where nobody appears to be able to control Trump!

 

Even more spectacular is Putin being able to frame Trump in a narrative, a guy who can't focus his attention on any subject more than a minute or so!

 

One would rather imagine Putin trying his best to constantly refocus Trump on serious issues, while the latter would be like: "what about the real estate in Sochi, I could build a hotel there...where did you get that painting, could I have a copy of it?... how is the beef here, can your chef cook a nice chesseburger?...".

[heybruce]

28 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

Right, so if Russia gave 6 billion dollars to different groups in the US, you would be ok with that? I mean you guys were all up in arms when Facebook claimed a few thousand ads originated from Russian ip addresses or computers running Russian installed operating systems. Also, if a Russian official were caught discussing with the opposition group who should be the next president after a president is impeached or ousted is also cool according to you?

 

This is offtopic according to you? So Russia's alleged meddling into other country's elections is also offtopic then?

 

If Russia wants to openly give billions to different groups in the US it is free to do so.  I assume Russian oligarchs have preferences as to who should be in charge in the US, they are free to hold and discuss these opinions.

 

Equating open US aid to other countries with covert attempts to hack voter rolls and spreading fake news is BS.  That is off-topic.

[Srikcir]

7 minutes ago, heybruce said:

If Russia wants to openly give billions to different groups in the US it is free to do so.

And the US is free to prosecute.

§30121. Contributions and donations by foreign nationals

(a) Prohibition

It shall be unlawful for-

• (1) a foreign national, directly or indirectly, to make-
• (A) a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or to make an express or implied promise to make a contribution or donation, in connection with a Federal, State, or local election;
• (B) a contribution or donation to a committee of a political party; or
• (C) an expenditure, independent expenditure, or disbursement for an electioneering communication (within the meaning of section 30104(f)(3) of this title); or
• (2) a person to solicit, accept, or receive a contribution or donation described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) from a foreign national.

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:52 section:30121 edition:prelim)

The Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA) is a United States law passed in 1938 requiring that agents representing the interests of foreign powers in a "political or quasi-political capacity" disclose their relationship with the foreign government and information about related activities and finances. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Agents_Registration_Act

Failure to register is a crime.

[tumama]

10 minutes ago, heybruce said:

If Russia wants to openly give billions to different groups in the US it is free to do so.  I assume Russian oligarchs have preferences as to who should be in charge in the US, they are free to hold and discuss these opinions.

 

Equating open US aid to other countries with covert attempts to hack voter rolls and spreading fake news is BS.  That is off-topic.

 

So Russians spending money on a few thousand Facebook ads is OK? Because it certainly seems a whole lot of other people don't think so. 

 

Also, I don't see how a number such as 6 billion would be necessary in a country like Ukraine. Especially given they said it was for "democratic" reasons. I mean do they normally spend that much money in other countries where people are starving? 

[tumama]

4 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

And the US is free to prosecute.

§30121. Contributions and donations by foreign nationals

(a) Prohibition

It shall be unlawful for-

• (1) a foreign national, directly or indirectly, to make-
• (A) a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or to make an express or implied promise to make a contribution or donation, in connection with a Federal, State, or local election;
• (B) a contribution or donation to a committee of a political party; or
• (C) an expenditure, independent expenditure, or disbursement for an electioneering communication (within the meaning of section 30104(f)(3) of this title); or
• (2) a person to solicit, accept, or receive a contribution or donation described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) from a foreign national.

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:52 section:30121 edition:prelim)

The Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA) is a United States law passed in 1938 requiring that agents representing the interests of foreign powers in a "political or quasi-political capacity" disclose their relationship with the foreign government and information about related activities and finances. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Agents_Registration_Act

Failure to register is a crime.

 

They sure are. But I'm also free to call out the blatant hypocrisy when I see it. 

[heybruce]

4 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

And the US is free to prosecute.

§30121. Contributions and donations by foreign nationals

(a) Prohibition

It shall be unlawful for-

• (1) a foreign national, directly or indirectly, to make-
• (A) a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or to make an express or implied promise to make a contribution or donation, in connection with a Federal, State, or local election;
• (B) a contribution or donation to a committee of a political party; or
• (C) an expenditure, independent expenditure, or disbursement for an electioneering communication (within the meaning of section 30104(f)(3) of this title); or
• (2) a person to solicit, accept, or receive a contribution or donation described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) from a foreign national.

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:52 section:30121 edition:prelim)

The Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA) is a United States law passed in 1938 requiring that agents representing the interests of foreign powers in a "political or quasi-political capacity" disclose their relationship with the foreign government and information about related activities and finances. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Agents_Registration_Act

Failure to register is a crime.

I was replying to a post about aid to US groups.  Obviously the aid would have to be for legal purposes.

[heybruce]

3 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

So Russians spending money on a few thousand Facebook ads is OK? Because it certainly seems a whole lot of other people don't think so. 

 

Also, I don't see how a number such as 6 billion would be necessary in a country like Ukraine. Especially given they said it was for "democratic" reasons. I mean do they normally spend that much money in other countries where people are starving? 

Stop deflecting, or, if you think that is a legitimate question, pull your head out.

 

If Russia had publicly announced it was funding Facebook ads and opinion pieces that would have been ok.  Doing so covertly is not ok.  Planting fake news is not ok.  Hacking voter databases is not ok.  Do you really not understand this?

 

Your opinion of Ukraine's needs is irrelevant.  Your knowledge of how free societies operate is clearly lacking.  Where are you from?

[tumama]

3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I was replying to a post about aid to US groups.  Obviously the aid would have to be for legal purposes.

 

Well since we know for a fact that Nuland discussed who should be the next Ukranian president, we can assume it wasn't. US gives Ukraine 6 billion dollars in "aid". A couple of months later there's a coup. Incidentally, the same thing happened in Venezuela. Snipers killed protesters on both sides and then used that as a pretext to instigate a coup. The only problem was back then, they sent out the video denouncing the killings to TV stations before they had even happened. 

[tumama]

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

Stop deflecting, or, if you think that is a legitimate question, pull your head out.

 

If Russia had publicly announced it was funding Facebook ads and opinion pieces that would have been ok.  Doing so covertly is not ok.  Planting fake news is not ok.  Hacking voter databases is not ok.  Do you really not understand this?

 

Your opinion of Ukraine's needs is irrelevant.  Your knowledge of how free societies operate is clearly lacking.  Where are you from?

 

Well so far we have seen exactly no evidence that Russia have meddled in anything. But yeah, I'm sure US would just spend 6 billion dollars on ensuring democracy in Ukraine for nothing. Then a coup happened and we had that leaked phone conversation tape. But I mean since you can jump to conclusions, why can't I?

 

[heybruce]

3 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

Well since we know for a fact that Nuland discussed who should be the next Ukranian president, we can assume it wasn't. US gives Ukraine 6 billion dollars in "aid". A couple of months later there's a coup. Incidentally, the same thing happened in Venezuela. Snipers killed protesters on both sides and then used that as a pretext to instigate a coup. The only problem was back then, they sent out the video denouncing the killings to TV stations before they had even happened. 

You continue to maintain that when an official privately states a preference for a candidate in an upcoming election that is election interference.  Well Putin publicly stated that he preferred that Trump win the 2016 election,  So by your standards, we have clear evidence of Russian interference.

 

The rest of your post is nonsense, misrepresentation, and off-topic.

[heybruce]

5 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

Well so far we have seen exactly no evidence that Russia have meddled in anything. But yeah, I'm sure US would just spend 6 billion dollars on ensuring democracy in Ukraine for nothing. Then a coup happened and we had that leaked phone conversation tape. But I mean since you can jump to conclusions, why can't I?

Once again, your paranoid conspiracy theories about the purpose of US aid is off-topic. 

 

Your refusal to allow people to hold and express opinions about candidates for election shows a profound ignorance about how a free society works.

 

You've stated you're European.  Let me guess, Belarus, right?

[tumama]

4 minutes ago, heybruce said:

You continue to maintain that when an official privately states a preference for a candidate in an upcoming election that is election interference.  Well Putin publicly stated that he preferred that Trump win the 2016 election,  So by your standards, we have clear evidence of Russian interference.

 

The rest of your post is nonsense, misrepresentation, and off-topic.

 

No, that would be the equivalent of a taped phone conversation with a Trump aide and Putin discussing what to do after he wins. Even worse because this happened after the state department having injected 6 billion dollars ensuring this would happen.

 

The rest of the post is not nonsense. It's just another example of US meddling, albeit an unproven one. But since you have no problem peddling things that are unproven, surely it shouldn't upset you. 

[tumama]

9 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Once again, your paranoid conspiracy theories about the purpose of US aid is off-topic. 

 

Your refusal to allow people to hold and express opinions about candidates for election shows a profound ignorance about how a free society works.

 

You've stated you're European.  Let me guess, Belarus, right?

 

Oh but your paranoid conspiracy theories about Russian meddling are not? 

 

Never said I US are not allowed to spend 6 billion dollars to influence the Ukrainian elections. I am however pointing out the blatant hypocrisy when you assert that Russia is guilty of meddling even before we've seen any evidence of it.

 

No, I'm Swedish. But thanks for judging. I have no agenda to defend Russia. I just hate the hypocrisy. And my country is flooded with refugees, so shipping them back to their home countries that were illegally attacked by US is on my agenda. 

[heybruce]

6 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

No, that would be the equivalent of a taped phone conversation with a Trump aide and Putin discussing what to do after he wins. Even worse because this happened after the state department having injected 6 billion dollars ensuring this would happen.

 

The rest of the post is not nonsense. It's just another example of US meddling, albeit an unproven one. But since you have no problem peddling things that are unproven, surely it shouldn't upset you. 

Once again, your ignorance of how free societies work is on display.  Had Trump and Putin talked before the election and Putin had expressed a desire for Trump to do certain things if he were elected, that would be legal.  Stupid but legal, so long as Putin were not taking any covert action to get Trump elected.

 

"unproven" is the only pertinent word in the rest of your post.

[tumama]

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

Once again, your ignorance of how free societies work is on display.  Had Trump and Putin talked before the election and Putin had expressed a desire for Trump to do certain things if he were elected, that would be legal.  Stupid but legal, so long as Putin were not taking any covert action to get Trump elected.

 

"unproven" is the only pertinent word in the rest of your post.

 

You could keep arguing this point as much as you like. But fact of the matter is:

 

1. There is zero evidence of Russian meddling that we have seen so far.

2. US has a long history of meddling in other countries. And keep doing it to this day, even going so far as illegally attacking sovereign nations. 

 

I can see why you don't like these two facts. 

[heybruce]

2 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

Oh but your paranoid conspiracy theories about Russian meddling are not? 

 

Never said I US are not allowed to spend 6 billion dollars to influence the Ukrainian elections. I am however pointing out the blatant hypocrisy when you assert that Russia is guilty of meddling even before we've seen any evidence of it.

 

No, I'm Swedish. But thanks for judging. I have no agenda to defend Russia. I just hate the hypocrisy. And my country is flooded with refugees, so shipping them back to their home countries that were illegally attacked by US is on my agenda. 

But by your standards, an official stating a preference for a candidate in a foreign election is meddling, and Putin has done that.  So by your standards meddling has been proven.

 

By my standards, the long list of indictments by Mueller is evidence of probable election interference.  Proof will come after convictions, which is unlikely in the case of Russian citizens.

[tumama]

Just now, heybruce said:

But by your standards, an official stating a preference for a candidate in a foreign election is meddling, and Putin has done that.  So by your standards meddling has been proven.

 

By my standards, the long list of indictments by Mueller is evidence of probable election interference.  Proof will come after convictions, which is unlikely in the case of Russian citizens.

 

No. She got caught discussing who should be the next president with an opposition member. That's very different from having an official stance. If Putin was caught saying the same thing with a Trump aid you would have considered that definite proof of meddling and collusion. That's blatant hypocrisy.

 

We've already seen how biased the FBI are in the case of the FBI agent saying they would ensure Trump wouldn't win. If there's evidence, I will review it and come to a conclusion. Again, I have no Russian bias. It could very well be that Russia did in fact hack the DNC servers. But I'm not just going to assume that before I see the evidence. And I'm still going to point out the blatant hypocrisy involving US meddling in other country's elections. 

[heybruce]

3 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

You could keep arguing this point as much as you like. But fact of the matter is:

 

1. There is zero evidence of Russian meddling that we have seen so far.

2. US has a long history of meddling in other countries. And keep doing it to this day, even going so far as illegally attacking sovereign nations. 

 

I can see why you don't like these two facts. 

There is ample evidence of Russia meddling in the US election, as explained many times.  Russia and the USSR also have a long history of meddling in other countries, and keeps doing it to this day, including illegally attacking sovereign nations.

 

Since the end of the cold war US has done some stupid things, but nothing like what Russia was doing during the 2016 Presidential election. 

[tumama]

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

There is ample evidence of Russia meddling in the US election, as explained many times.  Russia and the USSR also have a long history of meddling in other countries, and keeps doing it to this day, including illegally attacking sovereign nations.

 

Since the end of the cold war US has done some stupid things, but nothing like what Russia was doing during the 2016 Presidential election. 

 

No, there is none. There is US intelligence agencies saying they did. But that's obviously not evidence. Please do share if you think you have something that I haven't seen.

 

Russia has a history of meddling? Please do share because I haven't heard of any case where that's proven.

 

US has done some bad stuff? But not worse than the 2016 election? That's funny because all you got was another <deleted> president. Like Hillary would have been so much better. We Europeans got millions of refugees. 

[heybruce]

2 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

No. She got caught discussing who should be the next president with an opposition member. That's very different from having an official stance. If Putin was caught saying the same thing with a Trump aid you would have considered that definite proof of meddling and collusion. That's blatant hypocrisy.

 

We've already seen how biased the FBI are in the case of the FBI agent saying they would ensure Trump wouldn't win. If there's evidence, I will review it and come to a conclusion. Again, I have no Russian bias. It could very well be that Russia did in fact hack the DNC servers. But I'm not just going to assume that before I see the evidence. And I'm still going to point out the blatant hypocrisy involving US meddling in other country's elections. 

Now you are stating that an official expressing an opinion in a private conversation is election interference. 

 

I've explained many times before how expressing opinions in a free society works.  You clearly don't get it.

 

The evidence of Russian hacking into the DNC servers is available, but when I gave you links earlier you made it clear you don't read links, you need to be spoon fed information.  No.  Educate yourself and come back when you can post informed opinions.

[tumama]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Now you are stating that an official expressing an opinion in a private conversation is election interference. 

 

I've explained many times before how expressing opinions in a free society works.  You clearly don't get it.

 

The evidence of Russian hacking into the DNC servers is available, but when I gave you links earlier you made it clear you don't read links, you need to be spoon fed information.  No.  Educate yourself and come back when you can post informed opinions.

 

And I'm saying, if a Russian government employee got caught saying something similar to a Trump aide, you would have viewed that as direct evidence of meddling and collusion. That's blatant hypocrisy which you clearly don't get.

 

Please do share that evidence.

[Brunolem]

12 minutes ago, heybruce said:

 Hacking voter databases is not ok

 

Your knowledge of how free societies operate is clearly lacking.  Where are you from?

Collecting all the emails and phone conversations worldwide, including those of Mrs Merkel is OK...and has been made public by the American authorities...

 

To sum things up:

 

The US has done some bad things, but that was all before the end of the cold war.

 

Since then, the US has become a power of goodness, distributing money to countries to help them spreading democracy (they forgot their buddy Saudi Arabia but it's probably next on the list).

 

The US has brought down a few tyrants in the Middle East, but that was for the greater good, and the populations of the concerned countries have never been more happy!

 

To make sure that everything is fine, the US flies remote controlled drones all over the world, and now and then drops a missile over a wedding party because some guests are wearing caps and cannot be clearly identified from above...Ooops...accidents happen...no hard feelings...

 

Meanwhile, Russia and the evil Putin have been hell bent on destroying the harmony brought upon the world by the benevolent US of A, and have finally managed to put their man on the emperor's seat!

 

Maybe we could use this story for the opening sequence of the next Star Wars movie...Trump is a Sith Lord!!!

 

[heybruce]

Just now, tumama said:

 

No, there is none. There is US intelligence agencies saying they did. But that's obviously not evidence. Please do share if you think you have something that I haven't seen.

 

Russia has a history of meddling? Please do share because I haven't heard of any case where that's proven.

 

US has done some bad stuff? But not worse than the 2016 election? That's funny because all you got was another <deleted> president. Like Hillary would have been so much better. We Europeans got millions of refugees. 

You don't think Russia seizing the Crimean peninsula and having "volunteers" fighting with Russian military equipment in Ukraine is interference?  You might also look into Russia's history with Georgia and Moldova.  These are some of the more blatant, recent examples that come to mind.

 

You are clearly looking for a scapegoat for "millions of refugees" which represent less than 1% of the EU population.  Europe's hands are far from clean regarding the refugee problem.  Try dealing with it instead of crying "it's somebody else's fault!"

[tumama]

1 minute ago, Brunolem said:

Collecting all the emails and phone conversations worldwide, including those of Mrs Merkel is OK...and has been made public by the American authorities...

 

To sum things up:

 

The US has done some bad things, but that was all before the end of the cold war.

 

Since then, the US has become a power of goodness, distributing money to countries to help them spreading democracy (they forgot their buddy Saudi Arabia but it's probably next on the list).

 

The US has brought down a few tyrants in the Middle East, but that was for the greater good, and the populations of the concerned countries have never been more happy!

 

To make sure that everything is fine, the US flies remote controlled drones all over the world, and now and then drops a missile over a wedding party because some guests are wearing caps and cannot be clearly identified from above...Ooops...accidents happen...no hard feelings...

 

Meanwhile, Russia and the evil Putin have been hell bent on destroying the harmony brought upon the world by the benevolent US of A, and have finally managed to put their man on the emperor's seat!

 

Maybe we could use this story for the opening sequence of the next Star Wars movie...Trump is a Sith Lord!!!

 

 

Good points. Let's not forget the lies Obama told us that the NSA isn't spying on Americans. It took a patriot like Edward Snowden to tell us about that. And ironically he's in exile in Russia of all places. So much for the land of the free.