Trump invites Putin to Washington despite U.S. uproar on Helsinki summit

[heybruce]

2 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

And I'm saying, if a Russian government employee got caught saying something similar to a Trump aide, you would have viewed that as direct evidence of meddling and collusion. That's blatant hypocrisy which you clearly don't get.

 

Please do share that evidence.

No!  How many times does this have to be explained to you?  People are allowed to express opinions about foreign elections.  Putin and millions of other Russians had opinions about the 2016 Presidential election.  They have that right, and the right to communicate these opinions.  That's not collusion.  That's not election interference.  I don't know how to make that any more clear.

[tumama]

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

You don't think Russia seizing the Crimean peninsula and having "volunteers" fighting with Russian military equipment in Ukraine is interference?  You might also look into Russia's history with Georgia and Moldova.  These are some of the more blatant, recent examples that come to mind.

 

You are clearly looking for a scapegoat for "millions of refugees" which represent less than 1% of the EU population.  Europe's hands are far from clean regarding the refugee problem.  Try dealing with it instead of crying "it's somebody else's fault!"

 

No I don't think that "seizing" the Crimean peninsula was wrong for two reasons. Firstly, Crimea has been Russian for hundreds of years and was only recently given to Ukraine by the Communist dictatorship. But maybe you're a Communist and you're OK with that? Secondly, they had a public referendum where they overwhelmingly decided to join Russia. Which is hardly surprising because the overwhelming majority there are Russian. I'm a believer in the UN charter that states that people have the right to self determination. US thought Kosovo had too, so why not Crimea?

 

I don't know about Moldova, but I do know that Georgia attacked South Ossetia. And Russia briefly invaded them for that as punishment. But I really don't see anything that Russia did was illegal under the UN charter.

 

When it comes to helping the rebels in Ukraine, I also don't see a problem. If US can fund, train and arm terrorists in Syria. Then why can't Russia do the same in Ukraine? Again, blatant hypocrisy. 

[heybruce]

7 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Collecting all the emails and phone conversations worldwide, including those of Mrs Merkel is OK...and has been made public by the American authorities...

 

To sum things up:

 

The US has done some bad things, but that was all before the end of the cold war.

 

Since then, the US has become a power of goodness, distributing money to countries to help them spreading democracy (they forgot their buddy Saudi Arabia but it's probably next on the list).

 

The US has brought down a few tyrants in the Middle East, but that was for the greater good, and the populations of the concerned countries have never been more happy!

 

To make sure that everything is fine, the US flies remote controlled drones all over the world, and now and then drops a missile over a wedding party because some guests are wearing caps and cannot be clearly identified from above...Ooops...accidents happen...no hard feelings...

 

Meanwhile, Russia and the evil Putin have been hell bent on destroying the harmony brought upon the world by the benevolent US of A, and have finally managed to put their man on the emperor's seat!

 

Maybe we could use this story for the opening sequence of the next Star Wars movie...Trump is a Sith Lord!!!

 

Yeah global politics is a dirty business, if you think Russia's hands are clean you are a complete fool, and all that is off-topic.

 

Remember the title of this topic? "Trump invites Putin to Washington despite U.S. uproar on Helsinki summit"

[tumama]

3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

No!  How many times does this have to be explained to you?  People are allowed to express opinions about foreign elections.  Putin and millions of other Russians had opinions about the 2016 Presidential election.  They have that right, and the right to communicate these opinions.  That's not collusion.  That's not election interference.  I don't know how to make that any more clear.

 

The timeline goes as follows. The US state department gives 6 billion dollars to Ukraine as "aid" to help for "democratic" purposes. There is a violent coup. A US representative is recorded talking about who she wants to see as the next president. 

 

Point here if Russia did the same thing you would say that it was evidence of meddling. Again, this is blatant hypocrisy. 

[tumama]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Yeah global politics is a dirty business, if you think Russia's hands are clean you are a complete fool, and all that is off-topic.

 

Remember the title of this topic? "Trump invites Putin to Washington despite U.S. uproar on Helsinki summit"

 

Yeah I don't think Russia's hands are clean. I have no problem saying that. But you jump through hoops to defend the US government (democrat or republican).

[heybruce]

2 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

No I don't think that "seizing" the Crimean peninsula was wrong for two reasons. Firstly, Crimea has been Russian for hundreds of years and was only recently given to Ukraine by the Communist dictatorship. But maybe you're a Communist and you're OK with that? Secondly, they had a public referendum where they overwhelmingly decided to join Russia. Which is hardly surprising because the overwhelming majority there are Russian. I'm a believer in the UN charter that states that people have the right to self determination. US thought Kosovo had too, so why not Crimea?

 

I don't know about Moldova, but I do know that Georgia attacked South Ossetia. And Russia briefly invaded them for that as punishment. But I really don't see anything that Russia did was illegal under the UN charter.

 

When it comes to helping the rebels in Ukraine, I also don't see a problem. If US can fund, train and arm terrorists in Syria. Then why can't Russia do the same in Ukraine? Again, blatant hypocrisy. 

Crimea had a referendum during a Russian military takeover that was not recognized by most of the world.  South Ossetia is a rebellious part of Georgia and Russia has been supporting the rebels. 

 

I thought you were opposed to foreign governments supporting rebels.  Clearly you think it is sometimes ok.  Since Russia was doing this long before the US got involved in Syria, isn't it you who are being a hypocrite by stating it's wrong for the US but acceptable for Russia?

[heybruce]

5 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

The timeline goes as follows. The US state department gives 6 billion dollars to Ukraine as "aid" to help for "democratic" purposes. There is a violent coup. A US representative is recorded talking about who she wants to see as the next president. 

 

Point here if Russia did the same thing you would say that it was evidence of meddling. Again, this is blatant hypocrisy. 

Aid over twenty years requested and accepted by different Ukrainian governments, a coup against a blatantly corrupt government seen as a Russian puppet, and a US official expressing a preference for who should lead Ukraine. 

 

Only in a delusional, paranoid mind is this election interference.

[tumama]

Just now, heybruce said:

Crimea had a referendum during a Russian military takeover that was not recognized by most of the world.  South Ossetia is a rebellious part of Georgia and Russia has been supporting the rebels. 

 

I thought you were opposed to foreign governments supporting rebels.  Clearly you think it is sometimes ok.  Since Russia was doing this long before the US got involved in Syria, isn't it you who are being a hypocrite by stating it's wrong for the US but acceptable for Russia?

 

Sure it wasn't recognized by most of the world, because they are just as hypocritical. If Kosovo can have independence, why not Crimea? Again, you ignore the blatant hypocrisy here. 

 

Actually I'm not against a foreign state supporting rebels. I do however have a problem with US supporting terrorists. After 9/11 they said never forgive, never forget. But then they are right back funding terrorism again. And by terrorism I mean groups like the Al-Nusra Front. Hell, the academy awards even gave their propaganda arm an oscar.

 

 

[heybruce]

6 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

Yeah I don't think Russia's hands are clean. I have no problem saying that. But you jump through hoops to defend the US government (democrat or republican).

No, I jump through hoops explaining how US and USSR actions during the cold war, US aid over decades, and officials expressing opinions are in no way equivalent to what Russia did during the US election.

[Brunolem]

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

Yeah global politics is a dirty business, if you think Russia's hands are clean you are a complete fool, and all that is off-topic.

 

Remember the title of this topic? "Trump invites Putin to Washington despite U.S. uproar on Helsinki summit"

But of course it's off topic!

 

We can only discuss the reasons for the "uproar"...talk about a one-sided discussion!

 

What matters is what Russia (allegedly) did, not what the US has done that could help explain Russia's actions.

 

It's like a trial where the prosecuted is not allowed to present a defense...something the US knows all too well, with its special tribunals, indefinite detentions, black sites and all the paraphernalia of a model democracy!

[tumama]

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

Aid over twenty years requested and accepted by different Ukrainian governments, a coup against a blatantly corrupt government seen as a Russian puppet, and a US official expressing a preference for who should lead Ukraine. 

 

Only in a delusional, paranoid mind is this election interference.

 

So every year they gave Ukraine 6 billion dollars? Please do share that evidence. 

 

And so how is Ukraine doing right now? How's eradicating that corruption doing? 

 

You keep stating that. But people like you jumped to the conclusion that a few thousand Facebook ads were proof election meddling. Still waiting for you clarify about that. 

[heybruce]

2 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

Sure it wasn't recognized by most of the world, because they are just as hypocritical. If Kosovo can have independence, why not Crimea? Again, you ignore the blatant hypocrisy here. 

 

Actually I'm not against a foreign state supporting rebels. I do however have a problem with US supporting terrorists. After 9/11 they said never forgive, never forget. But then they are right back funding terrorism again. And by terrorism I mean groups like the Al-Nusra Front. Hell, the academy awards even gave their propaganda arm an oscar.

You accuse most of the world of being hypocritical for not supporting the Russian takeover of Crimea.  Enough said.

[tumama]

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

No, I jump through hoops explaining how US and USSR actions during the cold war, US aid over decades, and officials expressing opinions are in no way equivalent to what Russia did during the US election.

 

Well first of all Russia is not the Soviet Union. You think it was right that the USSR gave Crimea to Ukraine so you really have no business talking about what bad things they did. Secondly, you still haven't presented a valid argument that proves that Russia is the boogey man in all this. But you keep jumping through hoops to defend US's illegal wars that keeps leading to us Europeans to pay for it through the massive amount of refugees that it causes. 

[heybruce]

1 minute ago, tumama said:

 

So every year they gave Ukraine 6 billion dollars? Please do share that evidence. 

 

And so how is Ukraine doing right now? How's eradicating that corruption doing? 

 

You keep stating that. But people like you jumped to the conclusion that a few thousand Facebook ads were proof election meddling. Still waiting for you clarify about that. 

I didn't give a figure for the amount of Ukraine aid, you did.

 

Ukraine is doing poorly.  Endemic corruption is difficult to eliminate.

 

Russian interference went way beyond Facebook ads.  Stop denying facts.

[heybruce]

3 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

But of course it's off topic!

 

We can only discuss the reasons for the "uproar"...talk about a one-sided discussion!

 

What matters is what Russia (allegedly) did, not what the US has done that could help explain Russia's actions.

 

It's like a trial where the prosecuted is not allowed to present a defense...something the US knows all too well, with its special tribunals, indefinite detentions, black sites and all the paraphernalia of a model democracy!

Your defense of Russian election interference is on-topic, provided you can show Russia interfered in response to specific past US actions.  Please proceed.

[tumama]

3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

You accuse most of the world of being hypocritical for not supporting the Russian takeover of Crimea.  Enough said.

 

But you have no problem when NATO bombed Belgrade to force them to hand over control to the rebels in Kosovo. You really think that's not hypocritical? I mean do you see Russia bomb Kiev?

[tumama]

4 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I didn't give a figure for the amount of Ukraine aid, you did.

 

Ukraine is doing poorly.  Endemic corruption is difficult to eliminate.

 

Russian interference went way beyond Facebook ads.  Stop denying facts.

 

Yes I did, and you didn't dispute it. So again, please show me this alleged evidence of yours.

 

The Facebook ads is literally the only "evidence" we've seen. And that's all it took for people like you to come to the conclusion Russia meddled. Again, this is blatant hypocrisy. 

[heybruce]

1 minute ago, tumama said:

 

Well first of all Russia is not the Soviet Union. You think it was right that the USSR gave Crimea to Ukraine so you really have no business talking about what bad things they did. Secondly, you still haven't presented a valid argument that proves that Russia is the boogey man in all this. But you keep jumping through hoops to defend US's illegal wars that keeps leading to us Europeans to pay for it through the massive amount of refugees that it causes. 

Ok, I will not longer defend myself against bogus accusations you make about what I think or defend unless you cite specific posts of mine to justify your accusations.  In future I will simply reply with "BS".

 

Starting now.  BS.

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, tumama said:

 

Yeah I don't think Russia's hands are clean. I have no problem saying that. But you jump through hoops to defend the US government (democrat or republican).

 I don't think people in this thread are defending the US government, I think people are condemning the Russian government for its actions and  the US government for its recent relationship with Russia. The fact that the US has done many bad things also (no argument there) does not detract from Russia's  negative behaviour, or means that the US should not take steps to defend itself against it, as I am sure  Russia should and does.

 Let's get real here, Russia is doing bad things . should stop , the US should try to make them stop and not cuddle them and encourage it.The same applies toward the US .

Remember who the victims of such behaviour are , You and Me ! Why people would defend their Oppressors is beyond me. Perhaps a bit of stockholm syndrome?.

[heybruce]

4 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

But you have no problem when NATO bombed Belgrade to force them to hand over control to the rebels in Kosovo. You really think that's not hypocritical? I mean do you see Russia bomb Kiev?

BS.

[tumama]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Ok, I will not longer defend myself against bogus accusations you make about what I think or defend unless you cite specific posts of mine to justify your accusations.  In future I will simply reply with "BS".

 

Starting now.  BS.

 

Do you know how I know you're out of arguments?

[heybruce]

2 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

Yes I did, and you didn't dispute it. So again, please show me this alleged evidence of yours.

 

The Facebook ads are literally the only "evidence" we've seen. And that's all it took for people like you to come to the conclusion Russia meddled. Again, this is blatant hypocrisy. 

I'm supposed to defend your unreferenced post about the amount of US aid to Ukraine?   Major BS!

 

I will not dig up the extensive sources of evidence about Russian hacking, you wouldn't read them the last time I did.

[heybruce]

1 minute ago, tumama said:

 

Do you know how I know you're out of arguments?

You have an endless supply of off-topic deflections, generally presented with the claim "You think...."

 

BS.

[tumama]

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

 I don't think people in this thread are defending the US government, I think people are condemning the Russian government for its actions and  the US government for its recent relationship with Russia. The fact that the US has done many bad things also (no argument there) does not detract from Russia's  negative behaviour, or means that the US should not take steps to defend itself against it, as I am sure  Russia should and does.

 Let's get real here, Russia is doing bad things . should stop , the US should try to make them stop and not cuddle them and encourage it.The same applies toward the US .

Remember who the victims of such behaviour are , You and Me ! Why people would defend their Oppressors is beyond me. Perhaps a bit of stockholm syndrome?.

 

I just have two problems with that. Firstly the hypocrisy. Secondly people stating that Russia meddled in the election before we have seen any proof of it. 

[tumama]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I'm supposed to defend your unreferenced post about the amount of US aid to Ukraine?   Major BS!

 

I will not dig up the extensive sources of evidence about Russian hacking, you wouldn't read them the last time I did.

 

I thought you were just gonna say BS to everything I said. Already flip flopping are we? 

 

Common, let's get real here:

 

1. There is no proof of Russian meddling. If there was you would have provided it already.

2. You can't even admit that US is meddling all the time. Your blatant hypocrisy is just mind boggling. 

[heybruce]

3 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

I thought you were just gonna say BS to everything I said. Already flip flopping are we? 

 

Common, let's get real here:

 

1. There is no proof of Russian meddling. If there was you would have provided it already.

2. You can't even admit that US is meddling all the time. Your blatant hypocrisy is just mind boggling. 

Once again, links you won't read.  In advance, I will not summarize the information into bite size pieces you can then question, refuse to believe, or deflect on.  You're on your own.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/07/13/timeline-how-russian-agents-allegedly-hacked-the-dnc-and-clintons-campaign/?utm_term=.7958b79345e0

 

https://www.wired.com/2016/07/heres-know-russia-dnc-hack/

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russian-government-hackers-penetrated-dnc-stole-opposition-research-on-trump/2016/06/14/cf006cb4-316e-11e6-8ff7-7b6c1998b7a0_story.html?utm_term=.7e7aa44c42d4

 

Obviously there is much more on this topic for those who want to be informed.  Obviously you aren't one of those people.

 

 

[Opl]

11 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

I thought you were just gonna say BS to everything I said. Already flip flopping are we? 

 

Common, let's get real here:

 

1. There is no proof of Russian meddling. If there was you would have provided it already.

2. You can't even admit that US is meddling all the time. Your blatant hypocrisy is just mind boggling. 

Why are you constantly repeating the same "there is no proof" , answers have been given multiple times, but you keep on denying, do you hope lies that have long lived finally become truth? 

[tumama]

3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Once again, links you won't read.  In advance, I will not summarize the information into bite size pieces you can then question, refuse to believe, or deflect on.  You're on your own.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/07/13/timeline-how-russian-agents-allegedly-hacked-the-dnc-and-clintons-campaign/?utm_term=.7958b79345e0

 

https://www.wired.com/2016/07/heres-know-russia-dnc-hack/

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russian-government-hackers-penetrated-dnc-stole-opposition-research-on-trump/2016/06/14/cf006cb4-316e-11e6-8ff7-7b6c1998b7a0_story.html?utm_term=.7e7aa44c42d4

 

Obviously there is much more on this topic for those who want to be informed.  Obviously you aren't one of those people.

 

So let me get this straight. All the info in these three articles say that US intelligence agencies made that claim. In other words no evidence. 

[tumama]

1 minute ago, Opl said:

Why are you constantly repeating the same "there is no proof" , answers have been given multiple times, but you keep on denying, do you hope old long lived lies finally become truth? 

 

Because there is none. Saying that the CIA says it's so doesn't constitute as evidence. The Iraq war should have taught you that lesson. 

[sirineou]

5 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

I just have two problems with that. Firstly the hypocrisy.

 No one likes hypocrisy, and it is good to point it out ,but also god to stay on point, and not be distracted  .  The Russians can not cry  hypocrisy to justify their  actions , Just because someone is bad it does not  excuse someone else to be bad also. Same applies for the US

 

10 minutes ago, tumama said:

Secondly people stating that Russia meddled in the election before we have seen any proof of it. 

. Tones of meddling proof, russian  agents have being indicted, their names indicated in the indictments along with proof of the involvement. 

Don't you think that Trump should have asked Putin. Hey there is an indictment of election meddling by Russian agents under your command. Here are their names and proof, Do you know these people? are they indeed under your command? No you don't know about it? Have lost control of your military? Now that you know about heads will roll right?