Hua Hin rental market (and market in general)

[RobbyXNorway]

Hello there guys and gals!

 

My first post on ThaiVisa :-)

 

I'm a 44 year old retired (disability) guy from Norway who is planning to relocate to Thailand for the foreseeable future. I have prior short (1 month) visits to Thailand and have been married to a thai lady which didnt work out (no hard/bad feelings or trickery).

 

I have found Hua Hin to be pretty much perfect for me health wise due to temperature/climate and love that soft wind that is pretty much constant. I have absolutely zero interest in golf, although I did love minigolf as a child :-D It seems like a relaxed and cozy place where I can live and enjoy my hobbies (reading, PC gaming and perhaps even boardgames/RPGs). I have no love for bar-hopping or beer drinking so that doesnt appeal to me at all. Good food however is something I love (with proper moderation offcourse).

 

Anyway, my question is relatively simple. I intend to rent a house or villa with 3+ bedrooms preferably between Soi 88 and 112. And preferably within a development with security and communal pool. What kind of price should I expect? I have been looking at Thailand-Property and see the prices range from around 20.000 baht pr month to the stratosphere. I'm not looking for a luxury place but would like western comforts (toilets and kitchen primarily) of decent standard. Is it ok to sift through the Thailand-Property listings and pick there or should I do physical legwork and go around looking for a place? I have driven around on my last trip and seen there is a jungle of signs "for sale" and "for rent" with phone numbers. But is it worth running around looking compared to finding it online? Is there a price discrepancy? This part I have no knowledge/experience with and would love some input from guys who know the market.

 

Also, it seems the market in Hua Hin is overflowing with houses and condos for sale, with not much moving from what I see online. I have been thinking about buying but considering the land ownership rules and the impossibility of understanding "fair value" there, I feel safer renting for some time.

 

As a last note, is there any problem getting for example 3BB 200/100 mbit fiber internett installed in a rented house inside a development? I know some condos have a central wifi system which seemed "locked in" (The 88 Condo).

 

Thanks in advance!

[Mysterion]

Try searching the hua hin facebook groups for property rentals.

 

post a fee “wanted” ad, and the agents/ownera will come to you with proposals.

 

always “low ball” any offers and then work your way up.

 

buying a foreign freehold condo may be a more prudent option rather than burning cash renting over the long-term.

 

you are too young for a retirement visa. How do you plan to stay in thailand below 50 years old? Thai elite visa?

 

 

[RobbyXNorway]

I did repost this to the general Hua Hin forum also since there wasnt much response here, so I'll do a quick recap of the progress.

 

I will indeed get a PE 5 year visa (Thailand Elite Easy Access Program) which will last me until I'm 50 and can get the retirement visa.

 

I made a post on what seems the most active Facebook forum for properties in the Hua Hin area and have gotten a few decent looking houses to choose from. One thing I immediately noticed was that almost all the offers came in at the high end of my estimated rental cost (25.000) and one even wanted a 5 year contract (in lieu with my 5 year Thailand Elite visa which I mentioned).

 

The 2 houses on top of my list are both pool villas 2 beds and 2 bathroom. Look relatively new and a stone throw from Bluport mall. Both had their perks/qualities that made them very interesting. One has a larger swimming pool and the other has a small one but a rooftop terrace/patio. Both at 25.000 baht.

 

I know some people rather want to own a property like a condo, but I feel it binds me up too much and it binds up the capital. As the Thai market is not a good place to invest for future profits I find it better to just pay the rent and have the freedom to adjust on short notice. Just for a comparison I own my appartment in Norway 100% with no loans, but I still have to pay about 30.000 baht (equivalent) every month in expenses. So I will actually downgrade my monthly expenses by renting at 25.000. And trust me, I could not get half a house for rent in Norway at 25.000 baht, or even 30.000 baht ? I will sell the condo and put the money in a bank account until they might be needed for a new house/appartment in Norway at some future date. At some point I might put the money in a stock fund, but not now as I feel we are on an all time high and will go down quite a lot in the near future. So I will wait until I feel the timing is right before investing the money. Even if its a few years.

 

When I rode around Hua Hin with a friend in February/March I did get a feeling the market was extremely bloated and chaotic. There were signs everywhere about "for rent" or "for sale", and likely same in thai language. But still when we spoke to agents and develpers they made the impression that everything was rosey and on the upturn. We kind of bought into it until we found one developer to be blatantly lying to us. He told us there was just 1 house for sale in his project and we could have it for a discounted price! Later in the day when doing more research we found there were actually 5 houses in the project for sale and the great price he was offering was actually the same as was listed online. My friend also found him to have an air of desperation in his attitude, and in afterthought I had to agree with. I was just caught up a bit in the sales pitch I guess ?

 

I also found posts about people trying to sell their properties for several years with no luck. So it definitely seems to be a house on quagmire where I dont really know how far below the stable ground is. There is no way to know what something is worth or what a fair price is. But after looking around, reading a lot and asking I think I have a little bit of a "lay of the land" now.

 

So I will rent one of the houses for 25000 pr month and take it from there. If I can find something better at a lower price, I will move. But if its pennies and the house I rent is nice then I dont really care too much. Rental seems to be the smart way to go these days with all the available properties.

[Mysterion]

Renting is smart indeed if you need to be flexible with your living arrangements because you may want to move to a new city in a year or two.

 

However, buying an exisiting foreign freehold condo can also be a great investment if you buy for the right price and the potential rental yield is attractive. Just like any market in the world, the key to success is to buy for the right price to begin with.

 

Many condos(bought at the right price) can make  5%-10% annualized yield if they are only rented out in the high season for 3-4 months. It is very hard, if not impossible, to get that kind of rental yield in most western markets. 

 

Thai freehold or leasehold properties are a market unto themselves. Much less liquid than the foreign freehold market. Buyer beware.

 

remember to “lowball” offer wether you rent or buy. 

Edited July 28, 2018 by Mysterion

[David Walden]

58 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

Try searching the hua hin facebook groups for property rentals.

 

post a fee “wanted” ad, and the agents/ownera will come to you with proposals.

 

always “low ball” any offers and then work your way up.

 

buying a foreign freehold condo may be a more prudent option rather than burning cash renting over the long-term.

 

you are too young for a retirement visa. How do you plan to stay in thailand below 50 years old? Thai elite visa?

 

 

Depends how much money you have to live on but in and around Heu Hin you can get a 2 b/r town house A/C  nicely furnished not much to buy, not far from the beach and Market Village and lots of shops, basic but nice.  Traffic in Heu Hin is crazy.  If it's only for you Bt 10,000 P/M it will be very nice, nice kitchen and furniture incl TV lounge etc  ( lots of lovely Thai ladies they'll get you, you'll be  marked man?).  Also same in Cha-am, traffic also crazy but not so bad,  good but smaller town.  Beautiful beach better then Hue Hin,  Makro is being built now.  Magnificent Wednesday night market.  Take a Thai lady friend with you to the negotiating to rent, it most likely will save you money.   landlords  they try to increase the price for Farangs if on there own.  There are about 20,000 unsold never occupied condos for sale, some 3/4 years old between Hue Hin and Cha-am (30 km distance) Huge buildings never occupied and thousands of rentals...go for it

Edited July 28, 2018 by David Walden

[RobbyXNorway]

I have a monthly pension of about 110.000 baht net (after tax) so a 25.000 rental is fine on my budget. From what I have gathered its a fair price for a nice house with a private swimming pool (with regular pool-cleaning and gardening). Perhaps I could try to get it down to 20.000 but I think I will ask for a reduced price for rent after the 1st year. So I pay 25.000 pr month this first year and then get a discount going forward after that.

 

20.000 unsold condos is crazy! But it kind of fits into the pattern that I see. Extremely oversaturated market both with houses and condos. Right now people/companies can hold on to them as there isnt much tax, but if the government invokes the tax on unused properties it will create hell in the housing market!

 

I wonder what will happen to the Thai housing market if/when chinese "hot money" starts leaving. There could be some rather dire indirect effects from the escalating trade war between China and the US.

[David Walden]

2 minutes ago, RobbyXNorway said:

I have a monthly pension of about 110.000 baht net (after tax) so a 25.000 rental is fine on my budget. From what I have gathered its a fair price for a nice house with a private swimming pool (with regular pool-cleaning and gardening). Perhaps I could try to get it down to 20.000 but I think I will ask for a reduced price for rent after the 1st year. So I pay 25.000 pr month this first year and then get a discount going forward after that.

 

20.000 unsold condos is crazy! But it kind of fits into the pattern that I see. Extremely oversaturated market both with houses and condos. Right now people/companies can hold on to them as there isnt much tax, but if the government invokes the tax on unused properties it will create hell in the housing market!

 

I wonder what will happen to the Thai housing market if/when chinese "hot money" starts leaving. There could be some rather dire indirect effects from the escalating trade war between China and the US.

This housing situation appears to occur in many places in Thailand.  Huge new unoccupied buildings along the beach with 1200/1500 units I can see from my 13th floor window up the road a bit, never any lights at night.  Been like that for 3 years,  just near these vacant condos they are in the process of building 3000 more units adjacent to them  The room in the condotel on the Cha-am Beach I rent costs Bt 8000 p/m plus power and water, it's only 34 sq/m air cond. en suite, nice little kitchen, fridge, small cooker for when I  like to cook, as I do.  When I rent it for 6 months the last month is free.  So if I rent it for 12 months I only pay for 10 months the last 2 months free.  This is a common way of discounting rental properties in Thailand.  12 months up front payment will usually cost you for 10 months only, likely sometimes even bigger discount for up front payments.  Your could certainly live a very happy and comfortable life in Thailand with your income.  good luck.

PS...lots of happy Norwegians live in Cha-am not sure about Hue Hin.

[4MyEgo]

I agree with you about renting in Thailand (anywhere), the main reason is that you can up and go if your sick of it, or need to get away, property here takes forever to sell and developments keep happening day in day out saturating the markets, also don't forget the Junta are in power and for ho much longer, that said I would expect the property market to get some interest/increases when we know what the country is doing, but personally for someone who lives here and has 25 years of property background from Sydney, I wouldn't be investing in property in Thailand.

 

I cannot guide you into the rental market or selling market, besides sounds like you have your head screwed on pretty much in the right place, but just wanted say don't forget a couple of things.

 

A) What impact if any there will be tax wise in your country if you keep your place and any Capital Gains Tax in the future

I say that not knowing the laws of your country

 

B) What impact your status residency wise will have on you regarding taxes, social security benefits/disability pension ?

I am pretty sure in Australia they cut it after you have been out of the country for more than a period of time, but don't quote me on that.

 

C) Last but not least, private health cover, please do take out cover for at least Thailand, just for emergency and elective surgery as outpatient is cheap enough, i.e. I went to a private hospital 3 times in the last month to sort out a chest infection, X-rays, medications, Specialist visits etc etc 12,000 baht very affordable in my opinion, but emergency and elective I have read can be in the hundreds if not millions of baht which could cause you a problem, and will eat into your nest egg if you require surgery or have an emergency situation, and as you are under 50 it shouldn't cost you too much annually, probably the equivalent of 2 months rent that your looking at paying here for some good health cover and some do cover pre-existing conditions if you shop around.

 

Good luck with it all, been to just about everywhere in Thailand excluding Hua Hin and Chang Mai which I will get too in the next year.

Edited July 29, 2018 by 4MyEgo

[RobbyXNorway]

"A) What impact if any there will be tax wise in your country if you keep your place and any Capital Gains Tax in the future

I say that not knowing the laws of your country"

 

- My appartment in Norway is in sort of a coop management where I have to pay a monthly fee of about 30.000 baht just for living there. I own it 100% but still have to pay the fees. So its not a good property to keep if I live abroad. There are also rules that limit a rental period for max 3 years. Then I have to live there for 1 year before I can again rent it out 3 years. So its not a practical place to keep.

 

"B) What impact your status residency wise will have on you regarding taxes, social security benefits/disability pension ?

I am pretty sure in Australia they cut it after you have been out of the country for more than a period of time, but don't quote me on that."

 

Norwegians can not stay out of the country more then 6 months a year over extended periods of time and keep their national healthplan. If I just up and go I will loose my rights to free healthcare in Norway. But one can apply for a volunteered membership where we pay an additional 2,3% tax to keep our membership even if we move abroad. We also have to apply for "export of pension rights" so we dont loose those. I have done all of this and have my bases covered ? If I get ill I can hop on a plane back home to Norway for free healthcare. And if I get so ill or injured in Thailand that I can not travel immediately my national healtplan covers about 15000 baht pr day in hospital.

 

As for taxes, Norway has a tax agreement with Thailand where we can deduct the income taxed in Thailand on our tax in Norway. So we actually get a large benefit there. I can pay taxes for about 840.000 baht in Thailand and get that deducted on my taxed income in Norway. On a yearly basis that saves me about 200.000 baht net (which I havent included in my net income I listed as this money will go straight into a savings account instead).

 

"C) Last but not least, private health cover, please do take out cover for at least Thailand, just for emergency and elective surgery as outpatient is cheap enough, i.e. I went to a private hospital 3 times in the last month to sort out a chest infection, X-rays, medications, Specialist visits etc etc 12,000 baht very affordable in my opinion, but emergency and elective I have read can be in the hundreds if not millions of baht which could cause you a problem, and will eat into your nest egg if you require surgery or have an emergency situation, and as you are under 50 it shouldn't cost you too much annually, probably the equivalent of 2 months rent that your looking at paying here for some good health cover and some do cover pre-existing conditions if you shop around."

 

I will get the 1 year premium coverage from World Nomads for my first year and then figure out an insurance that can get me an airlift back home to Norway in case of serious injury or illness. I will also have set aside a considerable amount of money on savings accounts in Norway that can be used in an emergency.

 

A friend did an extensive survey of the thai medical plans so I'll sign up for one thats suitable for me once I near the end of the World Nomads coverage.

 

I'm of the sort that like to plan for pretty much any eventuality and keep my bases covered. To the point that people raise their eyebrows ? Any plan is better than no plan, and the more plans the better as it covers most situations you might end up in. Having thought through a theoretical event means that you are somewhat prepared if that should happen at some point.

[ukrules]

8 hours ago, RobbyXNorway said:

As for taxes, Norway has a tax agreement with Thailand where we can deduct the income taxed in Thailand on our tax in Norway. 

 

You're not going to be paying any tax on your pensions / external income in Thailand.

 

People have looked into this before, I suggest you search for more information on the subject because this is definitely one place where you will meet a roadblock. If you have a job or a company then you will pay tax but that's not compatible with the Thailand Elite visa and is a completely different road to go down.

[KittenKong]

On 7/28/2018 at 6:27 PM, RobbyXNorway said:

One thing I immediately noticed was that almost all the offers came in at the high end of my estimated rental cost (25.000) and one even wanted a 5 year contract (in lieu with my 5 year Thailand Elite visa which I mentioned).

If people know that you can pay 25,000B that is what they will ask for, even if the property is only worth 10,000B. If people think that they can get a 5-year contract out of you, that is what they will try to do.

 

If you assume that everyone involved in property here (regardless of skin colour) is trying to rip you off you wont go far wrong.

 

 

17 hours ago, RobbyXNorway said:

Perhaps I could try to get it down to 20.000 but I think I will ask for a reduced price for rent after the 1st year. So I pay 25.000 pr month this first year and then get a discount going forward after that.

You are thinking like a westerner. Worry about next year when it arrives. Offer a low price now. Go in at around 50% of the asking price. If they wont play ball, just walk away.

 

Remember: there are dozens if not hundreds of available properties here for every potential tenant or buyer, and everything is way overpriced.

 

[RobbyXNorway]

14 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

You're not going to be paying any tax on your pensions / external income in Thailand.

 

People have looked into this before, I suggest you search for more information on the subject because this is definitely one place where you will meet a roadblock. If you have a job or a company then you will pay tax but that's not compatible with the Thailand Elite visa and is a completely different road to go down.

 

I have actually researched this and Norway has an official tax-agreement with Thailand with both countries signatories to the agreement. And I know of at least 2 persons offering assistance in registering the tax and paying the tax in Thailand. Once I get the 2 certificates (1 for residency over 6 months and 1 for the actual paid tax) I send them to the Norwegian tax department and they deduct the taxed income from Thailand on my Norwegian tax. 100% legit and "tried and tested". There has been some issues with local tax offices in Thailand that dont know this agreement, but they usually go to the district head office to get it properly filed. I pay around 5-10.000 baht for the service and save about 200.000 baht on the process.

 

I did extensive research on this ?

[ukrules]

6 minutes ago, RobbyXNorway said:

There has been some issues with local tax offices in Thailand that dont know this agreement, but they usually go to the district head office to get it properly filed. I pay around 5-10.000 baht for the service and save about 200.000 baht on the process.

 

I did extensive research on this

 

This is interesting in itself, I would like to hear how you get along with this in the Hua Hin area once you're here for 6 months and go to get a tax id established.

 

[RobbyXNorway]

I'll try to remember to post an update on this. There is a Norwegian with a thai accountant wife living up near Cha Am who does this kind of tax reporting to Thai department and ensures the proper documents are presented. Last I heard they take 5000 baht for the job. There is also a Norwegian in Pattaya that does a similar service but also a full tax planning service for 20.000 baht. He calculates the optimal tax to pay Thai authorities.

 

I will set up another account for savings and make transfers to my main account for tax purposes to the amount I want to file taxes for in Thailand. On the savings account I only transfer from my Norwegian savings account and those one does not need to pay tax for. I use 2 accounts just to make it clearer what has been transfered to be taxed.

[KittenKong]

You can get a tax ID yourself for nothing. Just see the local Revenue Department.

 

However, unless there is something unusual about the Norwegian implementation, I dont think you will actually save anything: you will just pay it in a different place. Dual-taxation agreements are designed to allow you to offset tax paid in one jurisdiction against that due in another, but they are not designed to allow you to avoid it altogether. That's how the UK agreement works anyway, but perhaps the Norwegian one is different.

[KittenKong]

54 minutes ago, RobbyXNorway said:

There is a Norwegian with a thai accountant wife living up near Cha Am who does this kind of tax reporting to Thai department and ensures the proper documents are presented. Last I heard they take 5000 baht for the job. There is also a Norwegian in Pattaya that does a similar service but also a full tax planning service for 20.000 baht. He calculates the optimal tax to pay Thai authorities. 

If they will do it for 5000B you can be certain that there is very little for them to do. Best do it yourself for free.

[RobbyXNorway]

It is true I can do it for free but since the thai lady knows the system and speaks fluently its easier for her to  make sure everything goes properly.

 

The Norwegian system is that all income taxed in Thailand is deducted from the income taxed in Norway. The first 2-3 years you are refunded that money "after the fact" but then onward  they adjust the Norwegian tax level accordingly. So if I get 840.000 baht taxed in Thailand thats about 83000 baht. That equates to about 210.000 Norwegian Krone and a tax of 20.750 NOK (Norwegian Krone). I then can deduct the 210.000 NOK from my Norwegian income tax. When correcting this and taking into account the extra 2,3% tax for volunteer membership in the Norwegian healthcare system, the net saving is about 26.000 NOK pr year or about 100.000 baht pr year. I said 200.000 earlier but I forgot it was from a faulty calculation I made earlier ? Still a good chunk of money saved by following the tax agreement.

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, RobbyXNorway said:

It is true I can do it for free but since the thai lady knows the system and speaks fluently its easier for her to  make sure everything goes properly.

It took me all of 10 minutes to get mine. I would never pay anyone to do that for me. Up to you.

 

 

2 hours ago, RobbyXNorway said:

The Norwegian system is that all income taxed in Thailand is deducted from the income taxed in Norway. The first 2-3 years you are refunded that money "after the fact" but then onward  they adjust the Norwegian tax level accordingly. So if I get 840.000 baht taxed in Thailand thats about 83000 baht. That equates to about 210.000 Norwegian Krone and a tax of 20.750 NOK (Norwegian Krone). I then can deduct the 210.000 NOK from my Norwegian income tax.

 

What you describe seems to be much more generous than the dual-taxation treaties agreed by other countries with Thailand. I'll take your word for it though.

[RobbyXNorway]

I know the Norwegian/Thai agreement is under revision but thats how it works now ?

 

You are right in that I can do it myself, but since I dont have any experience in filing the paperwork I thought it best to get "hand-held" through the hurdle ? At least the first time.