Cave group to be ordained into monkhood for nine days

[jerry921]

5 minutes ago, Tony Hanscomb said:

Becoming a monk has no relevance to Buddhism you can be a christian and Buddhist if you want. (Buddhism is not a religeon)

That, as I understand it, is what Buddhists teach. It is not what most of Christianity teaches. See my post above.

[KiChakayan]

7 hours ago, colinneil said:

When are those boys going to be left alone?

Surely they have been through enough without being forced to become monks.

What about their education?

Ohh education does not matter keep the BS going as long as possible, pathetic.

They will contribute to science, we shall find out which one is worse, the Wat, or the Cave...

[bluesofa]

6 minutes ago, KiChakayan said:

They will contribute to science, we shall find out which one is worse, the Wat, or the Cave...

It's going to be the cave. No mobile signal.

It took a university graduate to confirm it though: "Engineering Institute of Thailand’s president Thanes Weerasiri said his team found GPS did not work inside the cave."

I assume before that they all thought mobiles worked underground - well they work on the Bangkok subway.

 

[khunPer]

8 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

As far as the Christian boy is concerned it is a little like forcing a Jewish or Muslin kid to eat pork. That's a pretty uncool thing to do to a kid who has already been through a lot.

I don't think so, as Buddhism has no God, so you can be a Christian Buddhist, or Buddhist Christian. That's why the Thai Buddhism – which is mixed with Hindu Gods like Brahma, and also Shiva and Vishnu – works well together with Thai animism.

 

Edit: However, another news article, a few days back, mentioned that only 12 of the 13 would be monks; but that might have changed.

Edited July 23, 2018 by khunPer

[anon789561]

am i alone in being a bit bored of this whole thing now.

look forward to the movie but apart from that, they are out and that's that.

 

[jerry921]

2 hours ago, Tongjaw said:

It’s been reported that the young Christian boy Abdu Sam-on will not be entering the Buddhist monkhood with his fellow team mates 

 

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/thai-boys-rescued-from-cave-to-be-ordained-in-buddhist-ceremony

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Edit: However, another news article, a few days back, mentioned that only 12 of the 13 would be monks; but that might have changed.

The article Tongjaw linked has a picture. You can count the boys. I got 11. The coach and Adul are probably not in the line.

 

Edit: note, the 11 are to become novices, not monks, only the coach will be a monk, so a separate ceremony, which is why I figured he and Adul are the ones not in the line.

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by jerry921
add note

[Sheryl]

Elsewhere it said that the coach will become a monk (he is old enough, and has done previous stints as a novice) while the boys will ordain as novices only.

 

This is a very, very common thing to do in Thai culture, in fact it is traditionally required of all Thai males at some point in their lives, if they have not done so already, they will usually do so prior to marriage, though I have seen it be for as little as 1-3 days, and sometimes skipped in urban areas. In rural areas still very much the norm.

 

It is so very common and integral to the Thai culture that I am quite surprised by the way posters are reacting.  In the West they'd be sent to therapists to work through the trauma and any associated guilt. In Thailand they ordain for a short period.

 

I would hardly assume it is something the government is forcing them to do.  Typical Thai parents would both want and expect this under the circumstances.

 

Culturally speaking it is the only way to effectively honor the man who died and to atone for the worry etc caused to their parents and trouble/work/risks incurred by countless other people, repay the debts of gratitude etc.  It also, culturally, seen as serving as a "reset" button of sorts, a way of coming out of ill luck etc.

 

So it serves a lot of functions, both socially and psychologically. And it is very, very normal and quite typical occurrence.
 

Nothing to fuss about IMO.

 

 

 

[dave moir]

You get quite a lot of people on this forum that talk a load of drivel!!!!

It's getting quite boring??

[anon789561]

i agree, it's nothing to fuss about and certainly doesn't matter that one is christian.

i'd say it's more of a reflection thing and would probably do them good.

i was in a temple here for a month in my early twenties, i was getting out of control and i'll be serious, if i hadn't been helped by those monks i'd have probably not lived much longer.

didn't push buddhism on me, just taught you how to use your mind a bit better i guess.

i don't think buddhism is all crap, a lot of people take advantage of it but if you listen to some of the teachings, they make sense.

if you can't speak thai then i would suggest listening to some of ajarn jayasaro's videos on you tube, he does some in english.

a lot of it kind of makes sense

[anon789561]

5 minutes ago, dave moir said:

You get quite a lot of people on this forum that talk a load of drivel!!!!

It's getting quite boring??

what like your great input?

[Jingthing]

Just my impressions about this.

Thai Buddhism is a mix of Buddhism and Thai traditional cultures.

Similar to Filipino Catholicism being different from French Catholicism.

From stuff I saw on the media, many locals believe their "intrusion" into the cave offended the spirit of the mountain. 

So offerings were given to assuage the spirit.

I really don't think that is Buddhism per se, sounds more like animism or something like that, but it's all mixed up here (and everywhere). 

Also that in effect these boys were basically basically "dead" and are now reborn.

That's pretty powerful stuff, you've got to admit!

So there is  the feeling that there is a need for a kind of "cleansing" or some other spiritual stuff that I don't pretend to understand and becoming temporary monks takes care of that. 

No comment about the Christian boy. I suppose it depends on how he and his family feels about it. They might be totally OK with it. Or maybe not. 

 

Also to add, foreigners coming here and moving here tend to learn pretty quickly Thailand is the land of Thais. Their country, their dominant religion, their rules. I can't see getting hot and bothered about this. 

 

Maybe reserve such outrage for more serious things. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Jingthing

[Sheryl]

It's been clarified the Christian boy is not ordaining. Just 11 of the 12 boys plus coach.

 

Presumably his choice/that of his guardians.

[Laza 45]

6 hours ago, cmsally said:

Leonard Cohen wasn't 11yrs old

 

 

I would say most Thai Buddhism has very little to do with meditation. If it did you would not see the buildings/statues/religious edifices that are so common.

No he wasn't 11 years old.. but not really a lot to do with this situation.. the boys don't become monks.. they are novices.. Virtually all Thai boys enter the Wat for a brief period .. Thai tradition to make merit and in a sense it is a right of passage..   Thai Buddhism has evolved over a long period of time and has many aspects that are not part of a pure Buddhist teaching.  Going back a very long way spiritual belief was based on animistic beliefs.. the the Hindu religion spread widely through SE Asia and Indonesia at least as far back as 200 BC.. probably much further.. Buddhism didn't become the dominant religion until much later.. Present day Buddhism in Thailand is a mixture of all three belief systems.. I don't see this a s good or bad.. it is just the way it is. It makes Thai culture what it is.. it is the glue that has held the culture together for a couple of thousand years and makes Thailand the unique and wonderful place it is..    

[Eligius]

6 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

It's been clarified the Christian boy is not ordaining. Just 11 of the 12 boys plus coach.

 

Presumably his choice/that of his guardians.

I think it's brave of him / his guardians to go against the flow and show a commitment to religious principle. Takes guts to do that in the current climate. But then, all the boys and the Asstnt Coach have shown guts - that's for sure.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Eligius

[HHTel]

It's been clarified/reported on here and in several sources.  It was never the case that the Christian boy was to attend.

 

Maybe TV posters will one day take the time to read what's gone on.  These threads would be much shorter.

 

[DM07]

3 hours ago, peterb17 said:

I am not immune to the corruption in Thai Buddhism - all I am saying is - like it or not - Buddhism is an integral part of the country- we criticise from a Western point of view ( corruption in the Catholic Church - never!) 

My view - we live here - we cannot influence this country in any way - so don’t be judgemental.

 

My Thai friends go to the temple on a regular basis - in respect to my partner I have a stunningly beautiful ancient Sukothai period Buddha image at home .

( I can’t stand all those tourist paintings and images- they should not be used as decoration) 

When you choose to move to a new country - you have no right to constantly criticise its citizens- you are a guest here - nothing more . 

 

Yeah...ahm...this is wrong on so many levels, I don't even know, where to start!

 

[Eligius]

14 minutes ago, HHTel said:

It's been clarified/reported on here and in several sources.  It was never the case that the Christian boy was to attend.

 

Maybe TV posters will one day take the time to read what's gone on.  These threads would be much shorter.

 

It has not been made clear in all articles on this topic that the Christian boy has been exempted. The very article on which this thread is based states (very misleadingly and inaccurately):

 

'

THE 12 YOUNG footballers and their assistant coach rescued from Tham Luang Cave this month were in normal physical health, Chiang Rai Governor Prajon Pratsakul told the press on Sunday.

 

They would undergo another physical and mental health check-up today to prepare the boys for being ordained as novices and their coach as a monk for nine days, he said.'

 

Note: 'the 12 young footballers and their assistant coach' - that means the Christian lad is included. Other articles have also not always made it clear that the Christian boy is not in fact one of the 'monk-training' group. So - I don't think it's fair to blame TVF members for not paying attention to the articles they read. Not every article reports things accurately or clearly. And not everyone reads EVERY article on a particular topic here on TVF.

 

[HHTel]

Well of course the source was 'The Nation' who get it wrong many times.

 

It's been stated on this forum several times from different sources proving that inaccuracy. 

 

But of course this forum is owned by 'The Nation'!  

 

Enough said!!

[cookieqw]

9 hours ago, holy cow cm said:

Unbelievable. Now they are going for commercialization of Buddha. All the kids want to do is be kids and eat and play. Interviews are fun for them. I would think 9 days of forced monk hood would be like 9 days back in the cave. 1 full day at the temple is even a lot.

 

Whose idiotic idea for this one?

The person who oversees the rule of - we will do what doesn’t need doing, and we will not do what does 

[car720]

9 hours ago, coulson said:

It's not really a fair comparison. You don't have to worship anything in a temple or even take the precepts on entry if you are not Buddhist. You just have to observe the house rules of conduct and are taught to think by yourself, unlike other institutions, that tell you what to think.

So that explains why so many Thais are so intelligent.

[cmsally]

9 hours ago, coulson said:

It's not really a fair comparison. You don't have to worship anything in a temple or even take the precepts on entry if you are not Buddhist. You just have to observe the house rules of conduct and are taught to think by yourself, unlike other institutions, that tell you what to think.

Actually if the object is meditation , then you are not taught to think. The object of meditation is to not think.

 

 

[Laza 45]

1 hour ago, DM07 said:

Yeah...ahm...this is wrong on so many levels, I don't even know, where to start!

 

Well.. don't start.. the guy has a good point..

[DM07]

1 minute ago, Laza 45 said:

Well.. don't start.. the guy has a good point..

He has???

[anon789561]

40 minutes ago, cmsally said:

Actually if the object is meditation , then you are not taught to think. The object of meditation is to not think.

 

 

it is weird, but it can free up your mind. 

just stopped raining here. was stuffy and horrible in the morning and then the rain stops and the airs much clearer.

it's a bit like that, kind of 555

[jenny2017]

4 hours ago, colinneil said:

Thank you for posting that, as i said no Christian boy would volunteer to become a novice Buddist monk.

 

   People don't have to be  Buddhist to stay at a temple for a certain time if it benefits them. Religions are way too often the reason for troubles. Can't we just live with each other, no matter what people believe in? Just saying. Why not practising meditation in a Buddhist temple? Is that something bad? 

 

 

[jenny2017]

38 minutes ago, Happy enough said:

it is weird, but it can free up your mind. 

just stopped raining here. was stuffy and horrible in the morning and then the rain stops and the airs much clearer.

it's a bit like that, kind of 555

Don't think too much now! ?

[anon789561]

22 minutes ago, jenny2017 said:

Don't think too much now! ?

well someone has to otherwise we'd be living on the soi 555

[canuckamuck]

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Elsewhere it said that the coach will become a monk (he is old enough, and has done previous stints as a novice) while the boys will ordain as novices only.

 

This is a very, very common thing to do in Thai culture, in fact it is traditionally required of all Thai males at some point in their lives, if they have not done so already, they will usually do so prior to marriage, though I have seen it be for as little as 1-3 days, and sometimes skipped in urban areas. In rural areas still very much the norm.

 

It is so very common and integral to the Thai culture that I am quite surprised by the way posters are reacting.  In the West they'd be sent to therapists to work through the trauma and any associated guilt. In Thailand they ordain for a short period...

 

Well the main thrust of the excitement surrounded the ordination of a Christian kid in a ceremony worshiping cave spirits and other religious rites. If the Op had the facts straight there would have been less outrage. Some people may have thought little of the dilemma, but history is full of examples of Christians choosing martyrdom over the choice to worship of other spirits idols, foreign gods or denying their faith. This is something many Christians would take deadly seriously. It didn't really seem to be a fair treatment of a kid who certainly didn't need the added stress over losing his salvation after just getting his life back.

Now of course we know that he will not be made to perform these heretical ceremonies. Hopefully their will be no hard feelings against him and his chances for citizenship are not compromised.

 

But outside of that whole thing, is the welfare of the other kids. Is making them continue to do things as a group and being such a public spectacle really what they need at this time? Wouldn't a return to school and normal schedules be a healthier choice for these kids. Or are they going to keep pushing these kids around until they get full fledged PTSD?

[anon789561]

12 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

Well the main thrust of the excitement surrounded the ordination of a Christian kid in a ceremony worshiping cave spirits and other religious rites. If the Op had the facts straight there would have been less outrage. Some people may have thought little of the dilemma, but history is full of examples of Christians choosing martyrdom over the choice to worship of other spirits idols, foreign gods or denying their faith. This is something many Christians would take deadly seriously. It didn't really seem to be a fair treatment of a kid who certainly didn't need the added stress over losing his salvation after just getting his life back.

Now of course we know that he will not be made to perform these heretical ceremonies. Hopefully their will be no hard feelings against him and his chances for citizenship are not compromised.

 

But outside of that whole thing, is the welfare of the other kids. Is making them continue to do things as a group and being such a public spectacle really what they need at this time? Wouldn't a return to school and normal schedules be a healthier choice for these kids. Or are they going to keep pushing these kids around until they get full fledged PTSD?

don't think too much . . . 

[peterb17]

6 hours ago, DM07 said:

Oh, please spare me!

Yeah, I live in Thailand and yeah, I had a look at their "religion" and it is the same crap than anywhere else in the world!

I don't have to like everything Thais do, just because I live here!

It's not "entering Thailand and hang up your brain in the entry hall"!

 

Actually I won’t spare you - is religion crap ? Logically there is no supreme being - it’s nonsense .

 

But as I said the great religions have moulded the world we live in - you cannot dispute that .

 

No you don’t have to like everything the Thais do ( I’ll ignore that tired hang up your brain comment ) 

 

One could ask - why are you here - a serious question? To move to another country , disrespect their beliefs, culture, way of life etc etc . 

 

My home is often full of Thai friends - it’s a simple thing - cupboards full of Pla Ra , and things I am not so fond of - some nonsense on the TV , I am not judgemental, it’s fine . 

 

My theory is of course that Americans cannot cope - and go down this alpha male , I am so important- actually not so important. 

 

Just go with the flow - embrace the country- you have no right whatsoever to criticise .