If Trump’s Fundraising Numbers Are Any Clue, He’s in Serious Trouble

[bristolboy]

Just now, Jingthing said:

Not many. That still doesn't make over the top, toxic, unbalanced, Jew hate tainted Israel demonization when much worse countries are not similarly demonized OK or right, right?

Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic because of its level of harshness. It is anti-Semitic when prejudices about Jews are invoked to criticize Israel. Israel is not Judaism. Judaism is not Israel. Israel is not Jews and Jews aren't Israel. It is irrational to denounce those who criticize all Jews for the deeds of Israel while at the same time denouncing those who criticize Israel on the grounds that they are criticizing all Jews. 

 

[dexterm]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

There is nothing at all wrong with reasoned criticism of Israel. But there is something wrong when criticism of Israel is infected with Jew hatred. If Labour wants more support from Jews the party needs to address that aggressively. Not just lip service.

 

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I mainly agree with you but how does one achieve the balance, separating genuine  anti-Semitism (irrationally hating Jews just because of something they can't help...being born Jewish..like any other form of discrimination) from reasoned criticism of Israel? By putting a blanket gag order on debate, there is a danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I think Corbyn has done the right thing in tackling genuine ant-Semitism with the Labor code of conduct, reading the riot act to his members, and when someone is reported as out of line, their actions and words are investigated. Appropriate reprimand, suspension, expulsion follows.

 

btw part of the counter support for Corbyn against the Get Corbyn brigade is spearheaded by another Jewish faction within the Labour Party...the Jewish Voice of Labour.

[Jingthing]

45 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic because of its level of harshness. It is anti-Semitic when prejudices about Jews are invoked to criticize Israel. Israel is not Judaism. Judaism is not Israel. Israel is not Jews and Jews aren't Israel. It is irrational to denounce those who criticize all Jews for the deeds of Israel while at the same time denouncing those who criticize Israel on the grounds that they are criticizing all Jews. 

 

 

Jew hating tainted Israel criticism is usually totally obvious to tell from regular criticism. There are grey areas though. 

There are debates around some of those grey areas, by definition.

We've been discussing that here and it relates to Corbyn and Labour.

Personally I think the Israelis are Nazis rhetoric and horrendous images you often see expressing that graphically often with depictions of Jews that would give Hitler a boner (from the right and the left) are almost always tainted by Jew hatred. Jew haters know that the Nazi/holocaust thing is a hot button for Jews, and they love to push it.

But very often it's so in your face, no discussion is needed.

We actually probably agree on a lot (Israel deserves criticism and criticizing Israel per se is not antisemitic) but I think you're very, very naive about how pervasive Jew hate tainted criticism of Israel really is.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Jingthing

[bert bloggs]

On 8/5/2018 at 8:44 AM, bert bloggs said:

After reading all these and other threads regarding Muslims ,i see that most of the Muslim apologists on here do not like the Jews , surprise surprise .

And a confused face from the usual "confused" poster

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed.   Continue and face a suspension.

 

[Nigel Garvie]

12 hours ago, Jingthing said:

You may be unaware of this issue or maybe you're being disingenuous. Take a look at the large amount of pronouncements from the U.N. compared to the rest of the world with many nations doing much worse things. I am not arguing that Israel doesn't have serious faults. They do. But the weird extreme imbalance of international negative attention clearly indicates something rotten in the intentions of those dishing out that attention.

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No, I am aware of the numerous UN resolutions, and I am not being disingenuous. However my point was more about the open ended, and poorly expressed way that the statement was phrased, whatever it's intentions. It is a kind of catch all, but means nothing statement, which has given rise to much of the discussion that has followed. The best being  "However, the "unfairness" should not be used in a reverse way. What is unfair is that the Kurds (or others) don't get the same level of attention and support, not that one particular cause (the Palestinians) gets a lot of support." 

 However I am surprised by the level of anti-semitism in the UK, which many posters clearly believe exists. It has never occurred to me to have negative views of Jews, or any other racial or national group, it just doesn't make sense to do that,  though there are good and bad individuals in every group of course. I can't remember the last time I ever met anyone who was anti-semitic, and I don't think I have lead a particularly sheltered life. Maybe things are different in Scotland, though I doubt it.

[Scott]

Troll posts removed.

[Jingthing]

10 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

No, I am aware of the numerous UN resolutions, and I am not being disingenuous. However my point was more about the open ended, and poorly expressed way that the statement was phrased, whatever it's intentions. It is a kind of catch all, but means nothing statement, which has given rise to much of the discussion that has followed. The best being  "However, the "unfairness" should not be used in a reverse way. What is unfair is that the Kurds (or others) don't get the same level of attention and support, not that one particular cause (the Palestinians) gets a lot of support." 

 However I am surprised by the level of anti-semitism in the UK, which many posters clearly believe exists. It has never occurred to me to have negative views of Jews, or any other racial or national group, it just doesn't make sense to do that,  though there are good and bad individuals in every group of course. I can't remember the last time I ever met anyone who was anti-semitic, and I don't think I have lead a particularly sheltered life. Maybe things are different in Scotland, though I doubt it.

Yes. Sheltered life.

 

Quote

 

Antisemitic incidents in UK at all-time high...

Silverman added: “We believe that Jews are being singled out disproportionately and with increasing violence due to the spread of antisemitic conspiracy myths originating from Islamists, the far-left and far-right, which society is failing to address, as evidenced by the ongoing disgraceful situation in the Labour party, and because the Crown Prosecution Service declines to prosecute so often that antisemites no longer fear any consequences to their actions.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/01/antisemitic-incidents-in-uk-at-all-time-high