I just finished a 48 hour intermittent fast (IF)

[cooked]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

You started insulting me, so i thought id return the favor (denigrating where i got my research). Again hunters don't exclusively eat meat it was actually the woman with their carbs that saved the day.

 

https://sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2015/08/10/starchy-carbs--not-a-paleo-diet--advanced-the-human-race.html

 

Nobody says low carb is dangerous its your kind that says low carb is the cure all for everything and has no drawbacks. While I am far more moderate and say it has its drawbacks and don't believe everything those guru's write as i read the research that shows the bad side too.

 

I get tired of people claiming that low carb is some sort of miracle as its not and has drawbacks like any diet. Processed carbs are unhealthy, whole wheat carbs and other unprocessed ones are not. Why eliminate a total food source based on misinformation. 

 

I am pretty sure you would have had all the health benefits you have now if you just had cut processed carbs out and nothing more.

 

I have yet to see good evidence of low carb vs 40% carbs unprocessed and the rest from fats and proteins. The research i seen so far shows no proof that low carb works better (once processed carbs are removed). 

 

 

If I had followed the advice of people like you I would be dead. Low carb IS a f***ing miracle, millions have reduced their blood pressure and blood sugar without meds. FYI I was eating very few processed carbs before I started except for a slice of toast a day. Also FYFI, I have raised my carbs to 10% and my biometrics are still fine, I will likely go on to 15 - 20% later on but I would then have to have regular bllo tests (not just sugar).

I have seen some reports of some people not doing very well on low carb, this is not denied by the community which as a whole sees only advantages.

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, cooked said:

If I had followed the advice of people like you I would be dead. Low carb IS a f***ing miracle, millions have reduced their blood pressure and blood sugar without meds. FYI I was eating very few processed carbs before I started except for a slice of toast a day. Also FYFI, I have raised my carbs to 10% and my biometrics are still fine, I will likely go on to 15 - 20% later on but I would then have to have regular bllo tests (not just sugar).

I have seen some reports of some people not doing very well on low carb, this is not denied by the community which as a whole sees only advantages.

Maybe you would be dead, can't be said. I told you I am against processed carbs but it seems you ignore the science i just posted where it says we were evolved with carbs.. so there goes the myth of hunters with only meat.

 

You should do whatever you want if that low carb then so be it. I just don't believe that low carb is needed for everyone and that there are no draw backs. I seen plenty of negative things and plenty of good things too. I am only rebelling against the religion of low carb.

 

You will never hear me say that low carb does not have its place as it certainly works. I am just not convinced everyone needs to go so extreme. I think cutting out processed carbs will work for most and if it does not one can always go low carb.

 

I just don't accept those youtube presentations that exaggerate everything. The way they present it is that people on low carb can leap tall s in a single bound ???? and lose fat without trying. I believe it works but other things work too. 

 

As for you never having a problem losing weight.. I never had it either until i tried to diet below 10% bodyfat then the rules change. The first weight loss is easy but going to totally shredded is hard. Believe me i tried low carb tried it all but low carb just does not work for me. Not with my level of activity weightlifting wise. 

 

I have years and years of training and diet experience and what I have found is simple if you go to extreme too fast you usually fail. If you build up things slowly and slowly improve on diet and make lifestyle changes you will succeed. I find going from bad diet to low carb extreme. Many fail, it would be better to first cut out processed carbs then see if that has the desired effect.. if not cut out all carbs.

 

I am a extremely fanatical training and diet person but even I feel that building things up with small changes works far better then making huge drastic changes at once. 

[cooked]

Mr Robblok, indignant selfrighteouss person: consider yourself blocked by me.

[robblok]

19 minutes ago, cooked said:

Mr Robblok, indignant selfrighteouss person: consider yourself blocked by me.

Fine by me but you blame carbs for your state while ignoring that you were a heavy drinker and that would have caused loads of insulin from the alcohol and the carbs in your drinks. So no wonder your doing better now on low carb and no alcohol. 

 

I for one am not surprised you are a lot better now after having given that up.. but i think you put the blame wrongly on diet while it was your drinking the carbs.

[Kohsamida]

17 hours ago, cooked said:

Insulting people always proves a point. Carbs were always eaten... not like today, this is new, in fact hunters would have eaten almost exclusively meat, the womenfolk would have collected what they could, which depending on the season would have been very little with occasional feasts. 

As for my education I worked for many years as a translator for the Archeo-botanical Institute at Basel, and this kind of thing was something we often discussed. Fanatic? Not at all. I don't accuse you of bering a fanatic, just of rejecting what IS in the next ten years become a lot more than a fad. 

Timothy Noakes was taken to court in South Africa, basically because of his stance on carbs, by nutritionists and dieticians. 

Low carbs are dangerous. Right. If I had followed doctor's advice I would now be taking statins and blood pressure meds, which are demonstrably harmful and can lead to diabetes. This is just my personal experience, but there are many more, meta analyses support me. Yes, being cured easily convinced me.

https://blog.virtahealth.com/2yr-t2d-trial-outcomes-virta-nutritional-ketosis/

 

There is no denying that a lot of people today are obese and suffering diseases related to "poor" nutrition such as diabetes.  Epidemiological studies and lab-based scientific studies have been showing a correlative relationship for years between diabetes and excessive dietary carbohydrates, but lately, they have been convincingly showing a causative relationship as well.

 

It has nothing to do with good carbs vs bad carbs, or processed carbs vs unprocessed ones.  When it comes to diseases like obesity or diabetes, a carb is simply a carb.  In excess, they all can be extremely disruptive to metabolic health.

 

It's a fact that many people with Stage 1 Diabetes, and even early Stage 2 show rapid and dramatic improvement by significantly reducing carbohydrate intake, and without medication of any kind.  Some are even able to reverse the condition entirely.   More and more documentation of this is starting to show up in peer-reviewed medical journals lately, and a simple google search will confirm it to be true.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[FracturedRabbit]

6 hours ago, Kohsamida said:

There is no denying that a lot of people today are obese and suffering diseases related to "poor" nutrition such as diabetes.  Epidemiological studies and lab-based scientific studies have been showing a correlative relationship for years between diabetes and excessive dietary carbohydrates, but lately, they have been convincingly showing a causative relationship as well.

 

It has nothing to do with good carbs vs bad carbs, or processed carbs vs unprocessed ones.  When it comes to diseases like obesity or diabetes, a carb is simply a carb.  In excess, they all can be extremely disruptive to metabolic health.

 

It's a fact that many people with Stage 1 Diabetes, and even early Stage 2 show rapid and dramatic improvement by significantly reducing carbohydrate intake, and without medication of any kind.  Some are even able to reverse the condition entirely.   More and more documentation of this is starting to show up in peer-reviewed medical journals lately, and a simple google search will confirm it to be true.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

Agree, but it may be that a carb is not just a carb. If I understand this video, incretins in your stomach respond differently to food they do not recognise (i.e. altered by processing) by spiking insulin much higher.

 

[Kohsamida]

1 hour ago, FracturedRabbit said:

Agree, but it may be that a carb is not just a carb. If I understand this video, incretins in your stomach respond differently to food they do not recognise (i.e. altered by processing) by spiking insulin much higher.

 

Of course I agree with you that some carbs are worse than others but in terms of disruption to basic metabolic mechanisms, all carbohydrates work the same way; it's just a matter of personal tolerance and dosage.  Some people can live to a happy old age eating as much carbs (including the bad ones) as they desire.  Conversely, some people can't even tolerate good carbs such as fruit, without serious metabolic consequences.

 

I guess a good analogy would be:  Low tar cigarettes are not as bad as unfiltered cigarettes for smokers, but they both can lead to serious disease; it's just a matter of personal threshold and dosage.

 

Everybody has a different threshold for how they tolerate carbohydrates.  More importantly, that threshold can change quickly and with very little warning as one ages.  By the time many people find out they have a problem, it's too late to reverse it. 

 

It's true that much is currently unknown about the actual cause of obesity and diabetes, but much clinical evidence is emerging about a causative link between carbs and metabolic syndrome.  So, it only seems wise to at least view the subject with an open-mind even if you are healthy on a high-carb diet, instead of believing "it only happens to the other person", which is what otherwise intelligent people often do when it comes to potentially bad health habits.

 

[robblok]

On 6/11/2019 at 8:47 AM, FracturedRabbit said:

Agree, but it may be that a carb is not just a carb. If I understand this video, incretins in your stomach respond differently to food they do not recognise (i.e. altered by processing) by spiking insulin much higher.

 

That video echoes what I say and proves that a carb is not a carb and IMHO low carb is not needed but being selective with what carbs you eat. Having said that I am not advocating high amounts of carbs 40% should be more then enough.

 

Thing is the low carb group seems to think the science supports what they say while in reality there is no consensus what so ever. Most research I have seen shows that if you remove processed carbs and keep whole grains weight comes off and insulin response is improved.

 

There is even evidence that whole grains protect against diabetic. If carbs are so bad then why was there no problem with carbs when I was young. In my country most carbs where unprocessed and whole grains. Problems came when you got more and more processed food and more and more restaurants and fast food crap. 

 

https://www.everydayhealth.com/type-2-diabetes/diet/whole-grains-help-prevent-type-2-diabetes-more-evidence-suggests/

 

However if you are suffering from metabolic problems eliminating as much carbs as you can is certainly a good thing. (even unprocessed ones)

 

 

[VincentRJ]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

However if you are suffering from metabolic problems eliminating as much carbs as you can is certainly a good thing. (even unprocessed ones)

This is the fundamental point that should resolve all these continual tit for tat disputes about carbs. If one has a genetic weakness, or disposition, which puts one at risk of diabetes, then eliminating as much carbs as possible, by going on a Keto diet, could solve the problem. That would be recommended. Getting hooked on pharmaceutical drugs would be the last option, for me. I always prefer a natural remedy.

 

However, if one has no serious medical problem, or diagnosed risk of a problem, then a moderate amount of unprocessed or whole grain carbs should present no health problems.
 

[robblok]

28 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

This is the fundamental point that should resolve all these continual tit for tat disputes about carbs. If one has a genetic weakness, or disposition, which puts one at risk of diabetes, then eliminating as much carbs as possible, by going on a Keto diet, could solve the problem. That would be recommended. Getting hooked on pharmaceutical drugs would be the last option, for me. I always prefer a natural remedy.

 

However, if one has no serious medical problem, or diagnosed risk of a problem, then a moderate amount of unprocessed or whole grain carbs should present no health problems.
 

I 100% agree, this has always been my view too. 

[FracturedRabbit]

I agree too, but this is the I’m too fat forum which in most cases means that those looking for answers are already metabolically challenged.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[VincentRJ]

16 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

I agree too, but this is the I’m too fat forum which in most cases means that those looking for answers are already metabolically challenged.
 

Good point, but we have to be clear on this aspect, when people are so adamant in their opinions on diet.
For example, I was moderately overweight for many years, but never felt it was a health problem. It was only when I came across the BMI on the internet (Body Mass Index) that I was able to calculate my degree of overweightedness and put a figure on it. I was about 18 kgs overweight, variable by about +/- 2 kgs depending on activities. That was a bit alarming, but I used to jog fairly regularly, 2 or 3 times a week, and ate reasonably healthy food, so my concern was about the future consequences of being overweight.

 

This is an important piece of advice. Don't wait until it is too late.

 

I think I've mentioned before, there were two major contributing factors to my overweightedness. Drinking too much wine and beer, and drinking too much pure fruit juice as a thirst quencher, being under the impression that pure fruit juice was very healthy because the juice contained most of the nutrients in the whole fruit.

 

At the time, I wasn't aware of the dangers of excessive fructose in reducing the the body's natural sense of satiety, and causing one to have a greater appetite.

 

I brought my weight down to the BMI recommended normal by ceasing the consumption of all alcoholic beverages for one whole year, avoiding fruit juices, and engaging in intermittent fasting for periods ranging from 24 hours to 4 days, now and again, but not regularly. I also restricted myself to one or two meals a day. My breakfast was usually at lunch time.

 

Apart from those changes, my diet is still the same, consisting of whole grain rice and whole grain wheat, unprocessed vegetables, eggs, meat and fish, plus various herbs and spices, such as ginger and turmeric.
At the age of 76, nearly 77, I have no health problems and I'm capable of strenuous physical activity such as cutting down large trees and pushing heavily loaded wheelbarrows.

 

Unlike Robblok, I'd rather lift sawn sections of tree trunks into a wheelbarrow, than lift weights in a gym. ????
 

[Kohsamida]

On 6/13/2019 at 10:24 AM, robblok said:

That video echoes what I say and proves that a carb is not a carb and IMHO low carb is not needed but being selective with what carbs you eat. Having said that I am not advocating high amounts of carbs 40% should be more then enough.

 

Thing is the low carb group seems to think the science supports what they say while in reality there is no consensus what so ever. Most research I have seen shows that if you remove processed carbs and keep whole grains weight comes off and insulin response is improved.

 

There is even evidence that whole grains protect against diabetic. If carbs are so bad then why was there no problem with carbs when I was young. In my country most carbs where unprocessed and whole grains. Problems came when you got more and more processed food and more and more restaurants and fast food crap. 

 

https://www.everydayhealth.com/type-2-diabetes/diet/whole-grains-help-prevent-type-2-diabetes-more-evidence-suggests/

 

However if you are suffering from metabolic problems eliminating as much carbs as you can is certainly a good thing. (even unprocessed ones)

 

 

You seem to be saying that only processed carbs are bad but you never differentiate them from what you consider good carbs to be.  What is it specifically that makes them bad, compared to good ones?  The only thing I see that’s significant is sugar content, which I why I believe “a carb is a carb” as far as metabolic health is concerned.  

 

The unusually high sugar content of most processed foods blunt satiety so that makes them particularly bad since it encourages over consumption, but any carb can be just as bad if over consumed IMHO.

 

The other thing is, while one may be able to tolerate a lot of dietary sugar (irregardless of whether it’s processed or unprocessed) when they’re young, such as you and I experienced, tolerance to sugar usually changes with age for many people.  It’s not particularly noticeable symptom-wise until one day a person find out through a blood test that they are diabetic.  

 

For many, by the time they find out, it’s irreversible, and the only treatment option is insulin, which really doesn’t solve the problem but just allows the patient to prolong life with increasing disabilities resulting from treatment.  

 

That’s why I, and many otherwise healthy people advocate low carb/keto.  In our view, it’s not only for treatment of metabolic disease, but a proactive strategy to avoid them.

 

Some keto/low carb fanatics may take things too far, but for most level-headed advocates it just means reducing carbs way below current MDR recommendations, and avoiding processed sugar as much as possible.

[robblok]

6 minutes ago, Kohsamida said:

You seem to be saying that only processed carbs are bad but you never differentiate them from good carbs.  What is it specifically that makes them bad, compared to good ones?  The only thing I see that’s significant is sugar content, which I why I believe “a carb is a carb” as far as metabolic health is concerned.  Thus, It’s only really the amount of sugar that makes a carb “bad” IMHO.

 

So, while one may be able to tolerate a lot of dietary sugar (irregardless of whether it’s processed or unprocessed) when they’re young, such as you and I experienced, tolerance to sugar usually changes with age for many people.  It’s not particularly noticeable symptom-wise until one day you find out through a blood test that you are diabetic.  

 

For many, by the time they find out, it’s irreversible, and the only treatment option is insulin, which really doesn’t solve the problem but just allows the patient to prolong life with increasing disabilities resulting from treatment.  

 

That’s why I, and many otherwise healthy people advocate low carb/keto.  In our view, it’s not only for treatment of metabolic disease, but a proactive strategy to avoid them.

If you don't know what makes them bad then you obviously have not done your homework. What makes a carb bad is for instance how fast it releases its energy. Processed carbs for instance do that much faster. Just think of glycemic index. The faster sugar is released the more adverse it affects your insulin. 

 

The problem is not carbs, the problem is too much carbs of the bad kind. Humans have been eating carbs for generations and only now do we see the problem. Why, because we eat more carbs and more processed carbs and are more sedentary. When I was young diabetice was almost unheard of and guess what not too many processed carbs available either. 

 

The reason I will always fight with low carb people is because they fail to see that there are good carbs like wholewheat grains who have proven to protect people from diabetice. 

 

If you look at the video fractured rabbit posted you will learn more about bad carbs and why processed carbs are bad.

 

I prefer to eat carbs fruits (what idiot would exclude fruits from a diet because they are carbs) but limit them and make sure i get the right kind of carbs. Its quite simple but I guess its even simpler to demonize all carbs. 

[Kohsamida]

23 minutes ago, robblok said:

If you don't know what makes them bad then you obviously have not done your homework. What makes a carb bad is for instance how fast it releases its energy. Processed carbs for instance do that much faster. Just think of glycemic index. The faster sugar is released the more adverse it affects your insulin. 

 

The problem is not carbs, the problem is too much carbs of the bad kind. Humans have been eating carbs for generations and only now do we see the problem. Why, because we eat more carbs and more processed carbs and are more sedentary. When I was young diabetice was almost unheard of and guess what not too many processed carbs available either. 

 

The reason I will always fight with low carb people is because they fail to see that there are good carbs like wholewheat grains who have proven to protect people from diabetice. 

 

If you look at the video fractured rabbit posted you will learn more about bad carbs and why processed carbs are bad.

 

I prefer to eat carbs fruits (what idiot would exclude fruits from a diet because they are carbs) but limit them and make sure i get the right kind of carbs. Its quite simple but I guess its even simpler to demonize all carbs. 

First of all, you need to use your terms correctly Robblok.  It’s not glycemic index you need to be concerned with, its glycemic load.  They are two entirely different things!  Watermelon, for example, has a high glycemic index (80). But a serving of watermelon has so little carbohydrate that its glycemic load is only 5.

 

We’re really saying the same thing.  It boils down to carb content. Processed foods typically have huge amounts of sugar so, yes, they are particularly bad but carbs in any form (including grains) have a direct effect on insulin response and the issue really is that radically high insulin response over time that leads to insulin receptors becoming desensitized in many people, ergo Diabetes.

 

I’m not demonizing carbs, any more than calories; I’m just saying controlling the amount in your diet is what’s important.

[JoeFromUSA]

everyone is different. what works for one does not work for the other.  So I agree with all of you.

For me plenty of protein, limited carbs and certain veggies. My closest friend eats lots of healthy carbs. We have both lost weight, we both feel fine, our vital signs are excellent.

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, Kohsamida said:

First of all, you need to use your terms correctly Robblok.  It’s not glycemic index you need to be concerned with, its glycemic load.  They are two entirely different things!  Watermelon, for example, has a high glycemic index (80). But a serving of watermelon has so little carbohydrate that its glycemic load is only 5.

 

We’re really saying the same thing.  It boils down to carb content. Processed foods typically have huge amounts of sugar so, yes, they are particularly bad but sugar in any form has a direct effect on insulin response and it’s radically high insulin response over time that leads to insulin receptors becoming desensitized in many people, ergo Diabetes.

I am a non native speaker i mixed the terms up. But yes we are saying the same thing. That is why I don't fear carbs or would ban all of them. I keep my carbs moderate . I just don't see the point in going too low when its not needed. 

 

I am well aware that low carb helps if your metabolically damaged. I just don't see the advantage of going low carb when not needed. If you just keep in check what you eat and carb wise and are moderately active too there is no problem at all. I just dislike the fanatical one diet for all. 

[robblok]

18 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

I agree too, but this is the I’m too fat forum which in most cases means that those looking for answers are already metabolically challenged.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

I think that is something we differ about, I think there are plenty healthy people who are overweight. Obese is a different thing and plenty of people like to lose weight some even only 5 kg. Why are you so adamant that they all have to use the same diet. It just does not make any sense. 

[Kohsamida]

2 minutes ago, JoeFromUSA said:

everyone is different. what works for one does not work for the other.  So I agree with all of you.

For me plenty of protein, limited carbs and certain veggies. My closest friend eats lots of healthy carbs. We have both lost weight, we both feel fine, our vital signs are excellent.

That’s a great point!  Every one reacts differently to foods.  Some tolerate high carbs better than others.  Some fortunate ones can literally eat anything they wish and live to a ripe old age in perfect health...but the thing is, how your body reacts to foods is not static but can change over time.

 

Everybody knows that most kids can eat almost anything and maintain perfect health, but things can change radically over time. My personal view is that one should simply take thus into account and have a proactive view on nutrition.

[robblok]

1 minute ago, Kohsamida said:

That’s a great point!  Every one reacts differently to foods.  Some tolerate high carbs better than others.  Some fortunate ones can literally eat anything they wish and live to a ripe old age in perfect health...but the thing is, how your body reacts to foods is not static but can change over time.

 

Everybody knows that most kids can eat almost anything and maintain perfect health, but things can change radically over time. My personal view is that one should simply take thus into account and have a proactive view on nutrition.

What was telling was how a friend and i responded totally different to the same meal. In my fanatical days i would have blood testing strips and do so after certain meals. Just to see what meals i responded to in a good way and what ones not. Because we do respond different to the same foods. 

 

Now i know what i respond too and i take berberine to help me even more. 

[robblok]

2 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

Good point, but we have to be clear on this aspect, when people are so adamant in their opinions on diet.
For example, I was moderately overweight for many years, but never felt it was a health problem. It was only when I came across the BMI on the internet (Body Mass Index) that I was able to calculate my degree of overweightedness and put a figure on it. I was about 18 kgs overweight, variable by about +/- 2 kgs depending on activities. That was a bit alarming, but I used to jog fairly regularly, 2 or 3 times a week, and ate reasonably healthy food, so my concern was about the future consequences of being overweight.

 

This is an important piece of advice. Don't wait until it is too late.

 

I think I've mentioned before, there were two major contributing factors to my overweightedness. Drinking too much wine and beer, and drinking too much pure fruit juice as a thirst quencher, being under the impression that pure fruit juice was very healthy because the juice contained most of the nutrients in the whole fruit.

 

At the time, I wasn't aware of the dangers of excessive fructose in reducing the the body's natural sense of satiety, and causing one to have a greater appetite.

 

I brought my weight down to the BMI recommended normal by ceasing the consumption of all alcoholic beverages for one whole year, avoiding fruit juices, and engaging in intermittent fasting for periods ranging from 24 hours to 4 days, now and again, but not regularly. I also restricted myself to one or two meals a day. My breakfast was usually at lunch time.

 

Apart from those changes, my diet is still the same, consisting of whole grain rice and whole grain wheat, unprocessed vegetables, eggs, meat and fish, plus various herbs and spices, such as ginger and turmeric.
At the age of 76, nearly 77, I have no health problems and I'm capable of strenuous physical activity such as cutting down large trees and pushing heavily loaded wheelbarrows.

 

Unlike Robblok, I'd rather lift sawn sections of tree trunks into a wheelbarrow, than lift weights in a gym. ????
 

Yes we are all different because i dislike cardio and weight lifting is easy and fun and challenging (for me). 

 

But you were 18 kg overweight and obviously not metabolically damaged as you got rid of it without cutting carbs. That is why i don't feel that everyone who is overweight is metabolically damaged.

 

My weakness is drinking too (and i mean fruit juices and other sweet things). I have eliminated these things from my diet as they are empty calories.  But I know i like a bit of taste to my water. That is why i am happy with the advice wavehunter gave me for drink flavor packages. 

 

When i was overweight it was because of alcohol (out of boredom) and fast food. Eliminating that helped a lot. Now I am just trying to get super lean. I am still overweight according to BMI but with visible abs. So i guess I don't have a problem. (bodybuilders are always overweight because they have more muscle). 

[Kohsamida]

5 minutes ago, robblok said:

I am a non native speaker i mixed the terms up. But yes we are saying the same thing. That is why I don't fear carbs or would ban all of them. I keep my carbs moderate . I just don't see the point in going too low when its not needed. 

 

I am well aware that low carb helps if your metabolically damaged. I just don't see the advantage of going low carb when not needed. If you just keep in check what you eat and carb wise and are moderately active too there is no problem at all. I just dislike the fanatical one diet for all. 

Yes, it seems we are on the same wavelength.  I think where we differ is that I take more of a proactive view about carbs than you seem to.  

 

My view is that nutrition, and how the body reacts to carbs is not static, but can change radically over time.  You may tolerate carbs just fine now, but that can change over time.  

 

The problem is that those changes often don’t have noticeable symptoms.  Since most people do not regularly have in-depth blood tests, many don’t know they are diabetic until the condition has reached the point where it is irreversible (receptor damage), and then the only option is pharmaceutical treatment.

 

My stance is simply pro-active, and not at all radical.  I have the same view of fanatics as you, and actually despise many of the guru types because they are only capitalizing on the underlying science for their own gain.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, Kohsamida said:

Yes, it seems we are on the same wavelength.  I think where we differ is that I take more of a proactive view about carbs than you seem to.  

 

My view is that nutrition, and how the body reacts to carbs is not static, but can change radically over time.  You may tolerate carbs just fine now, but that can change over time.  

 

The problem is that those changes often don’t have noticeable symptoms.  Since most people do not regularly have in-depth blood tests, many don’t know they are diabetic until the condition has reached the point where it is irreversible (receptor damage), and then the only option is pharmaceutical treatment.

 

My stance is simply pro-active, and not at all radical.  I have the same view of fanatics as you, and actually despise many of the guru types because they are only capitalizing on the underlying science for their own gain.

I think I am pretty pro active because of the heavy lifting I do i burn through carbs easy and because I have quite a bit of muscle (not pro bodybuilder style) i have less problems handling carbs and I have had a genetic test done long ago that showed i had no problems with carbs.

 

I think if you workout hard (moved over 19.000 kg in my last workout) carbs are not much a problem. That said I don't get more then 20-40% of my calories from carbs.. 20% on non training days and 40% on training days. 

 

I told you before i take berberine too and that keeps your insulin under control too. (its a herb with the almost the same power as anti diabetic medicines)

[WaveHunter]

15 minutes ago, robblok said:

I think I am pretty pro active because of the heavy lifting I do i burn through carbs easy and because I have quite a bit of muscle (not pro bodybuilder style) i have less problems handling carbs and I have had a genetic test done long ago that showed i had no problems with carbs.

 

I think if you workout hard (moved over 19.000 kg in my last workout) carbs are not much a problem. That said I don't get more then 20-40% of my calories from carbs.. 20% on non training days and 40% on training days. 

 

I told you before i take berberine too and that keeps your insulin under control too. (its a herb with the almost the same power as anti diabetic medicines)

Good observation about how working out effects how tolerant you are to carbs.  I don't really know the science behind it so this is just my own observation but it seems that a lot of athletes consume huge amounts of carbs (carb loading) but by all accounts maintain fine metabolic health.  I ride with other cyclists who actually will fill their water bottles with table sugar almost to where it's the consistency of a gel!  Most of them are Vegan and eat a very high-carb diet.  It seems crazy to me but they are fanatical about doing that!  It seems that, for that group, problems only occur once they stop competition-level activity but continue eating as they did when they competed.

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I think that's a great point about how working out effects how tolerant you are to carbs.  I don't really know the science behind it so this is just my own observation but it seems that a lot of athletes consume huge amounts of carbs (carb loading) but by all accounts maintain fine metabolic health.  It seems that, for that group, problems only occur once they stop competition-level activity but continue eating as they did when they competed.

Yes but that is also where the myth comes from that muscle turn to fat. People who work out hard and then stop.. but keep eating the same amount of food. That is when it all goes wrong.

 

I don't think I ever ate excessive amounts of carbs while training. I eat quite healthy when training and mind my diet. For me the exessive amount of carbs come when I don't train and eat fast food. 

 

Just had 60 grams of musli (and that is not all carbs), scoop of cassein,  some innulin, 10 ml of MCT oil, yoghurt (the good kind you can get at Makro unflavored), and some frozen mulberries on top. I would not say that is a carb heavy meal. 

[KC 71]

Opinion is that fasting is good for health. 
[/url]  

Jungle juice instead i see !


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[Vacuum]

On 8/5/2018 at 1:32 PM, simon43 said:

My weight certainly dropped during this fast, probably overall by at least 1 - 1.5 Kg.

Probably due to water loss.

[WaveHunter]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

Yes but that is also where the myth comes from that muscle turn to fat. People who work out hard and then stop.. but keep eating the same amount of food. That is when it all goes wrong.

 

I don't think I ever ate excessive amounts of carbs while training. I eat quite healthy when training and mind my diet. For me the exessive amount of carbs come when I don't train and eat fast food. 

 

Just had 60 grams of musli (and that is not all carbs), scoop of cassein,  some innulin, 10 ml of MCT oil, yoghurt (the good kind you can get at Makro unflavored), and some frozen mulberries on top. I would not say that is a carb heavy meal. 

Yes, I see that happen to a lot of people that were the picture of health with real low BF%, and then go to hell when they stopped training but continued to eat the way they were when training.  That should be no real big mystery but still lots of people misinterpret it as muscle somehow magically transforming into fat.

 

I'm also a big fan of Muesli.  Mainly I just like the taste and texture of some of the good brands.  Red Mill was the best I ever had but Alpen Swiss is what I usually find in Thai stores and it's pretty good too.  I don't usually eat breakfast because I usually have no appetite before noon but lately I'm thinking of forcing myself to because I want to start training early mornings  so I'm thinking Muesli with water (no dairy for me) and a grapefruit to fuel me, and a banana for potassium .

 

Funny you mention MCT oil.  That's real big with Low-Carbers and Keto folks, mainly because when you’re on a ketogenic diet, MCTs can easily be converted into ketones in the liver, and since ketones can pass through the blood-brain barrier, they are like an instant source of fuel for the brain, and are also lower in calories than long-chain triglycerides like found in olive oil. 

 

I've also read (but I don't know if it's actually been proven) that MCT's may reduce lactate buildup in athletes and also, if taken before a workout, help use fat more readily than carbs for energy (to the muscles) thereby enhancing loss of body fat during workouts.  Is that why you use MCT Oil?

 

I've used MCT oil in the past and thinking of using it again.  Where do you buy yours here in Thailand?

 

[robblok]

27 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Yes, I see that happen to a lot of people that were the picture of health with real low BF%, and then go to hell when they stopped training but continued to eat the way they were when training.  That should be no real big mystery but still lots of people misinterpret it as muscle somehow magically transforming into fat.

 

I'm also a big fan of Muesli.  Mainly I just like the taste and texture of some of the good brands.  Red Mill was the best I ever had but Alpen Swiss is what I usually find in Thai stores and it's pretty good too.  I don't usually eat breakfast because I usually have no appetite before noon but lately I'm thinking of forcing myself to because I want to start training early mornings  so I'm thinking Muesli with water (no dairy for me) and a grapefruit to fuel me, and a banana for potassium .

 

Funny you mention MCT oil.  That's real big with Low-Carbers and Keto folks, mainly because when you’re on a ketogenic diet, MCTs can easily be converted into ketones in the liver, and since ketones can pass through the blood-brain barrier, they are like an instant source of fuel for the brain, and are also lower in calories than long-chain triglycerides like found in olive oil. 

 

I've also read (but I don't know if it's actually been proven) that MCT's may reduce lactate buildup in athletes and also, if taken before a workout, help use fat more readily than carbs for energy (to the muscles) thereby enhancing loss of body fat during workouts.  Is that why you use MCT Oil?

 

I've used MCT oil in the past and thinking of using it again.  Where do you buy yours here in Thailand?

 

I am Dutch grown up with dairy and I can tolerate it well. I usually go for the normal musli without any extra added sugars. Not sure what brand it is (something German). I start the day with breakfast (in this case 5 eggs 3 slices of bacon with the eggs), something easy in the afternoon (musli in this case could be something different).

 

Yes I heard MCT is good for keto but its also a healthy source of fat. I have my fish oil and some olive oil if i take salads. The MCT oil I buy at good karma shop Thailand.  I don't think it will help reduce fat that much its just that i believe in eating (relatively) healthy and that means good fats too. I consider MCT as good. I used to take flax seed oil too. I also have almond butter (make it myself) has a lot of protein and healthy fats too. I sometimes take spoon as a snack or if I eat bread (not often) use it for bread.

 

 

[wilcopops]

As noted earlier on, this thread has turned into a litany of pseudo-science and ignorance fueled by a thick smattering od OCD.

The simple fact that people are so unable to self analyse or diagnose that they clutch at fads and diets, claiming they work, yet end up trying to explain how they put on weight again.......which just shows none of these diets..... not a single one actually works.