In England's forgotten 'rust belt', voters show little sign of Brexit regret

[My Thai Life]

23 minutes ago, Grouse said:

We should lead and change the EU to world dominance. Instead of slouching off in hoodied, dumbed down, insolence we should be striding  forward

I don't disagree in principle, though I am a bit suspicious of the "world dominance" angle, it sounds distinctly Nazist or Trumpist.

 

My own personal view, which I really have no objection to anyone or everyone disagreeing with:

 

- Would I vote for continued membership of an unreformed EU? No.

- Would I vote for a Tory casino economy? No.

- Would I vote for a return to 1970s/80s Labour policy? No.

- Would I vote for a return to Blair's Thatcherite neoliberalism? No.

 

As a very long term expat, I feel I made the correct decision for myself a long time ago, I'm sad to say.

Edited August 8, 2018 by My Thai Life

[vogie]

30 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I'm anti Thatcher, anti Brexit and anti Muslim. All of these things impinge on the situation in The North.

 

Thatcher's blind monetarism ( guided by Minford et al) wrecked much of the country. Yes some good came of it but it was done too rapidly with no re-investment of our oil bonanza in new industries.

 

Yorkshire towns (Leeds and Harrogate being outliers) are depressing husks of their former glories.

 

And we have Muslim ghettos.

 

No wonder there is despondency, desperation and demagoguery.

 

I tell you this. The EU is the WRONG TARGET. In fact, Joe Bloggs from Barnsley will be worse off, not better.

 

Where are our leaders? Our social democrats?

 

The loss of wool, coal, steel and ship building has largely killed the North. May be an agrarian future with massive depopulation is the way? I think EU regional support is the better way, but where is our government? They could at least get the rail infrastructure in! 

 

We rely upon German locomotive manufacturing and Japanese automobile manufacturing? Where are our indigenous digital, semiconductor, chemical industries? Where are our Apples, Siemens, Toyotas, Boeings, Thyssen Krupps? Hitachis? Philips? 

 

Certainly we have the academics, engineers and scientists. We have the capital and service sectors.

 

If ever there was a time for new leadership it is now.

 

We should lead and change the EU to world dominance. Instead of slouching off in hoodied, dumbed down, insolence we should be striding  forward.

"Where are our leaders, our social democrats" if you mean Vince Cable and Nick Clegg, they couldn't even be bothered turning up to vote on Mrs Mays White Paper, we need better leaders than that.

[Becker]

34 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

I don't disagree in principle, though I am a bit suspicious of the "world dominance" angle, it sounds distinctly Nazist or Trumpist.

 

My own personal view, which I really have no objection to anyone or everyone disagreeing with:

 

- Would I vote for continued membership of an unreformed EU? No.

- Would I vote for a Tory casino economy? No.

- Would I vote for a return to 1970s/80s Labour policy? No.

- Would I vote for a return to Blair's Thatcherite neoliberalism? No.

 

As a very long term expat, I feel I made the correct decision for myself a long time ago, I'm sad to say.

Just out of curiosity what would you have voted yes for?

[Laughing Gravy]

1 hour ago, sammieuk1 said:

The shambolic joke was sold to the north with a 350mil bus and the immigrants being expelled the next day and are now confused as to why all the Pakistani and Indians have not been deported yet as we are the 52% with our one laws and borders just controlled by the ever so trustworthy  DWP and Tory's god save the pound??

It Not that old boring chestnut.   It wasn't. it was for many reasons that has been done to death on here with threads removed but it would seem posters like yourself like to believe that to justify point of view of the referendum was a shambolic joke. Shamefull,

[Andrew108]

Too much ideological posturing from all sides and not enough practical solutions. These communities need a future and need to be re-tooled. The people in these places are being used by various political parties who get the votes or support they want and then just abandon them. Its been happening for decades. These places need psychological renewal too. They need to get on with things themselves. And actually there are projects started by locals that look towards self-autonomy. Brexit won’t change anything but as a protest vote points to the underlying desire for self-autonomy. 

[AsiaHand]

16 hours ago, lovelomsak said:

I think speaks volumes. People are suffering already So they will just get on with it on their own and work for a better future

 

That is the spirit that made  England great. Good to see there are still men out there that will rebuild .

Yes! In these days of pussy's mascaraing as men it is good to hear from someone with balls.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

I don't disagree in principle, though I am a bit suspicious of the "world dominance" angle, it sounds distinctly Nazist or Trumpist.

Yes, poor choice of words. Scrub dominance and insert leadership. Thanks!

[whatsupdoc]

3 hours ago, worgeordie said:

Well,it looks like the EU are not going to give any concessions at all,

everything put forward is shot down,because they know they must

be very tough with the U.K. and make us suffer,they don't want the U.K.

to succeed,as that might give others in the club thoughts to leave too,

 

So I say just give the finger to Barnier,Tusk, and the rest of them,and

get the hell out of there,pay them nowt,then turn the UK,into a low tax,

free trade zone on the edge of Europe.

regards Worgeordie

The UK is not just asking some concessions. The UK wants to divide the 4 freedoms. Doing so would destroy the integrity of the single market and would cost the EU far more than the hardest Brexit.

Why always ask for a good deal for the UK but completely ignore whether it is beneficial for the EU?

 

Good luck with your "low tax, free trade zone on the edge of Europe". It will probably make the (very) rich richer, but anyone else will suffer.

 

So, UK, go ahead with this plan. It seems the only way to make Brexiteers understand what they have given up (and for what???).

[Retiredandhappyhere]

4 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

You are completely missing the point. This community and many others like it had the rough end of the stick before the referendum. They are not unaware that they will probably continue to get the rough end of the stick (just read the article).

 

They exercised their right to vote.

 

And then they get abused by pseudo liberals like you for doing so.

 

Jeeez, attitudes like yours are part of the problem, but your sense of moral superiority will forever blind you to that simple fact.

Well said!  Had the referendum resulted in a 52% vote in favour of remaining, would the remainers be asking for a new vote?  Of course not.  Nobody expected negotiations with the EU to be easy, but time has shown that all the EU has done so far is continually demand that the UK come up with proposals for leaving while never seeming to offer any positive suggestions itself.  A totally negative attitude from the EU  while expecting the UK to pay huge sums of money  as part of the divorce settlement, most of which was never envisaged or specified in the original treaty..  Admittedly, the negotiations do not seem to have gone too well so far, mainly for the reasons stated above and it is all too easy to keep blaming Theresa May for it, when those opposing her do not want to take on the job, or come up with any concrete proposals which would be acceptable to the EU, while still meeting the wishes of the 52% who voted for Brexit in the referendum.  

 

A negotiation is supposed to be a two-way thing, but it seems that the EU expect the UK to come up with all the suggestions merely so that it can shoot them down.  However, at the eleventh hour, in accordance with usual EU procedure, a trade deal will be reached, which will of course be a compromise, as with all such deals, and the UK will, with its usual determination in face of difficult circumstances, survive and eventually prosper without EU membership,  while the EU runs the risk of eventual fragmentation and possible disintegration, or at the very least, the disappearance of the "United States of Europe" dream.  Had the organisation remained a "Common Market" , as originally envisaged, and not evolved into a political setup, dominated by one or two nations, intent on reducing the powers and sovereignty of member nations, the UK would be more than happy to be a member, but, as it is................

 

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Seems like the modern meaning of democracy is to have a vote but don't accept it unless it goes your way.

 

Rightly or wrongly the majority , albeit small, voted to leave. So accept democracy and get on with it. 

 

But no. They need another vote and so on until it is the "correct" result.

Fortunately we don't have an absolute (Ancient Greek style); we have representative parliamentary democracy. The majority of the electorate are not necessarily correct.

[Laughing Gravy]

43 plus years to get a Referendum and when was given people don’t like the outcome. regardless whether you agree with it or not it is the law. We haven’t even left and remainers want another referendum because the result doesn’t suit them. Comical. If you don’t like the electorate system camoaign against it. As for another vote let’s ply fair nd let the UK leave and after say half the time it took for a referendum, see if the UK wants to rejoin the EU, if it is I still around.  I have.a feeling people who voted remain wont go for that.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Laughing Gravy

[whatsupdoc]

8 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

43 plus years to get a Referendum and when was given people don’t like the outcome. regardless whether you agree with it or not it is the law. We haven’t even left and remainers want another referendum because the result doesn’t suit them. Comical. If you don’t like the electorate system camoaign against it. As for another vote let’s ply fair nd let the UK leave and after say half the time it took for a referendum, see if the UK wants to rejoin the EU, if it is I still around.  I have.a feeling people who voted remain wont go for that.

Or the EU will still be around, but the UK has fallen apart (more likely in my opinion).

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, worgeordie said:

Well,it looks like the EU are not going to give any concessions at all,

everything put forward is shot down,because they know they must

be very tough with the U.K. and make us suffer,they don't want the U.K.

to succeed,as that might give others in the club thoughts to leave too,

 

So I say just give the finger to Barnier,Tusk, and the rest of them,and

get the hell out of there,pay them nowt,then turn the UK,into a low tax,

free trade zone on the edge of Europe.

regards Worgeordie

Low tax for whom?

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

I don't disagree in principle, though I am a bit suspicious of the "world dominance" angle, it sounds distinctly Nazist or Trumpist.

 

My own personal view, which I really have no objection to anyone or everyone disagreeing with:

 

- Would I vote for continued membership of an unreformed EU? No.

- Would I vote for a Tory casino economy? No.

- Would I vote for a return to 1970s/80s Labour policy? No.

- Would I vote for a return to Blair's Thatcherite neoliberalism? No.

 

As a very long term expat, I feel I made the correct decision for myself a long time ago, I'm sad to say.

 

2 hours ago, Becker said:

Just out of curiosity what would you have voted yes for?

I realise your post was addressed to My Thai Life (who presumably will respond later), but hopefully you won't object to my putting forward my answer to your question?

 

Personally, I didn't vote as I trust uk politicians even less than eu politicians, so was fearful that a leave vote would result in them having an even better opportunity to hit the poorest workers in the uk, even harder....

 

Even so, I didn't even consider voting to remain as (IMO) the eu needed to reform - and had shown no inclination to do anything of the sort.

 

I had hoped that the suprise brexit vote would shock the eu into self-reform, and if this had happened (or, to be fair, if they had changed the aspects that I most disliked!) - I would have been happy for another referendum on whether to stay with the new, reformed eu.

 

But instead of learning from the brexit vote that reform was needed, the bureaucrats decided that it was far more important to refuse to negotiate (even though genuine negotiation would help many eu countries as much as the uk) and entrench their power - to dissuade other eu countries from 'getting the same idea' as the uk....

 

It didn't work, as there is now a rise of right-wing parties in other eu countries....

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

"Where are our leaders, our social democrats" if you mean Vince Cable and Nick Clegg, they couldn't even be bothered turning up to vote on Mrs Mays White Paper, we need better leaders than that.

I specifically used lower case social democrats

[My Thai Life]

3 hours ago, Becker said:

Just out of curiosity what would you have voted yes for?

I voted with my feet a long long time.

 

[tomacht8]

5 hours ago, worgeordie said:

Well,it looks like the EU are not going to give any concessions at all,

everything put forward is shot down,because they know they must

be very tough with the U.K. and make us suffer,they don't want the U.K.

to succeed,as that might give others in the club thoughts to leave too,

 

So I say just give the finger to Barnier,Tusk, and the rest of them,and

get the hell out of there,pay them nowt,then turn the UK,into a low tax,

free trade zone on the edge of Europe.

regards Worgeordie

Free trade zone with who exactly?

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

I’ve never been to Knottingley, but I’ve frequently been to Goole; it was a dump the first time I went their in the late 70s and I never noticed any improvement during visits in the 80s and 90s.

 

Only a Gooley who wasn’t smart enough to leave the place would draw the conclusion that Goole’s problems emanate from the EU.

 

Goole did however play a part in the demise of Knottingley’s coal industry, being one of the major landing ports for Polish coal.

[worgeordie]

49 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Free trade zone with who exactly?

 

 

The rest of the World , there are approximately 180 countries that are not in EU, 

regards worgeordie

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, worgeordie said:

The rest of the World , there are approximately 180 countries that are not in EU, 

regards worgeordie

Don’t bet on free trade deals anytime soon,  the chaos surrounding closing ‘the easiest deal in human history’ is a good indicator of what the UK has ahead of itself when trying to negotiate free trade agreements.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

43 plus years to get a Referendum and when was given people don’t like the outcome. regardless whether you agree with it or not it is the law. We haven’t even left and remainers want another referendum because the result doesn’t suit them. Comical. If you don’t like the electorate system camoaign against it. As for another vote let’s ply fair nd let the UK leave and after say half the time it took for a referendum, see if the UK wants to rejoin the EU, if it is I still around.  I have.a feeling people who voted remain wont go for that.

To which law do you refer? 

[dunroaming]

19 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

Green, who runs a Miners’ Welfare Club in an area where there are no longer any working miners, says both of Britain’s main political parties have shown no interest in the Yorkshire town of Knottingley for generations.

I think this article is very poignant.  I know there are many who feel like him, depressed and wanting to strike against the establishment.  The poor guy is lost, running a Miners Welfare Club where there are no longer any miners.

 

20 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

What would he tell May about Brexit? “Just get on with it. We are a nation of fighters - we are not going to crumble. Let’s crack on, get out and get some investment back into this country,” he said.

I am sorry but you are not a fighter.  You are still trying to run a club that hasn't got a hope of surviving and hasn't for years now.  You are living in the dire hope that mining will be restored or that life in Knottingly will somehow spring back into life.  Change the name of the Miners Welfare Club to the Knottingly Re-training Club, strip out the bar and put in tools to re-educate the local people, giving them a chance to re-build their lives.  That is what fighting is, not whinging in your flat stout!

 

If this country is leaving the EU on the advise of Mr Green and his chums then the UK really hasn't got much hope.  But this is not about Brexit it is about the government not putting in the money or expertise  to give Yorkshire the chance it really needs.  Yorkshiremen are good hard working people given the chance, they are not known as salt of the earth for nothing!  Mining is gone and so is much of the manufacturing and the area needs massive investment.  Brexit or no Brexit isn't going to make a jot of difference to that!

 

Rant over!

[Grouse]

16 minutes ago, worgeordie said:

The rest of the World , there are approximately 180 countries that are not in EU, 

regards worgeordie

Of which we have agreements with another 60 odd including Japan.

[Chomper Higgot]

36 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

I think this article is very poignant.  I know there are many who feel like him, depressed and wanting to strike against the establishment.  The poor guy is lost, running a Miners Welfare Club where there are no longer any miners.

 

I am sorry but you are not a fighter.  You are still trying to run a club that hasn't got a hope of surviving and hasn't for years now.  You are living in the dire hope that mining will be restored or that life in Knottingly will somehow spring back into life.  Change the name of the Miners Welfare Club to the Knottingly Re-training Club, strip out the bar and put in tools to re-educate the local people, giving them a chance to re-build their lives.  That is what fighting is, not whinging in your flat stout!

 

If this country is leaving the EU on the advise of Mr Green and his chums then the UK really hasn't got much hope.  But this is not about Brexit it is about the government not putting in the money or expertise  to give Yorkshire the chance it really needs.  Yorkshiremen are good hard working people given the chance, they are not known as salt of the earth for nothing!  Mining is gone and so is much of the manufacturing and the area needs massive investment.  Brexit or no Brexit isn't going to make a jot of difference to that!

 

Rant over!

Arguably the worst thing about Brexit is the fact that those who lead the ‘Leave Campaign’ used the desperation of ordinary people without any intention of helping them and in the full knowledge that Brexit will make their lives worse.

 

False hopes raised amongst desperate people by hedge fund managers and the hyper wealthy lining their own pockets.

 

 

[bristolboy]

7 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Well o

Well obviously the majority of those mining families voted in a different way from you in the referendum, and you seem to have learned little from your time with 

How exactly  does saying that the Brexit leadership used lies  and deceit make someone a pseudo liberal? 

It's time to give that favorite insult of right-wingers  like you, namely "pseudo-liberal", a rest. You're just trolling.

[3NUMBAS]

brits have never been so well off despite where they live ,,younguns spend 1000s of pounds on tattoos ans smart phones so theyre rich beyond their forebears..at least 6 magazines in the bookshops about tattoos..

Edited August 8, 2018 by 3NUMBAS

[dunroaming]

18 minutes ago, 3NUMBAS said:

brits have never been so well off despite where they live ,,younguns spend 1000s of pounds on tattoos ans smart phones so theyre rich beyond their forebears..at least 6 magazines in the bookshops about tattoos..

Can't go along with that I am afraid. When I was young everyone working could save and buy a house to live in.  Not much chance of that for the young today unless it is inherited from their parents.  To use tattoos and mobile phones as an example of the young being "rich" is a touch naïve, don't you think?

[Laughing Gravy]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

To which law do you refer? 

A referendum was given and the people given a clear choice leave or remain. We we’re all told that the result would be respected. No second referendum and what has been said countless times the UK would leave the CU, SM and ECJ. Parliament have voted many times and so far has got things through despite the Millers etc trying their best.Maybe to be concise the word law should not have been in my post. All this should have but I wrongly assumed everyone knows this or tend to ignore it.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Laughing Gravy
iPad just isn’t as good a. Laptop

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

How exactly  does saying that the Brexit leadership used lies  and deceit make someone a pseudo liberal? 

Well, any real liberal knows both sides lied. And any real liberal knows the disenfranchised working class have been lied to many times by both sides for a long time.

 

But you pseudo liberals sit on your high moral horse and lecture the disenfranchised working class about how they voted the wrong way because they're so stupid.

 

Jeez, you pseudo liberals are such hypocrites. Trump got in because of pseudo liberals like you.

 

And you all seem to be too stupid to understand that the pseudo liberal inability to engage with the disenfranchised working class is the reason Boris is quite likely to be the UK Trump. And then you'll blame the disenfranchised working class again.

 

Wake up or grow up.

[dunroaming]

34 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Well, any real liberal knows both sides lied. And any real liberal knows the disenfranchised working class have been lied to many times by both sides for a long time.

Yes both sides lied.  The disenfranchised working class were an easy target for the leave campaigners because they wanted change.  The bus and the promises were presented as fact when in reality it was just speculation but they pushed all the right buttons at the time.  On the remain side it was again, speculation dressed up as facts.  Both sides were led by Eton boys and they were all out for aggrandisement.  They made Brexit into a political game with no consideration for what was actually best for the country or indeed the people.  In the end one Eton boy resigned and the other ran away.