In England's forgotten 'rust belt', voters show little sign of Brexit regret

[vogie]

7 hours ago, Grouse said:

That's a great quote!

 

From who?

Dianne Abbott, I think.

[stevenl]

9 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

What on earth are you talking about? My "clas", do you mean my "class". You don't know my class (if that's what you mean).

 

However, a genuine thanks for trying to find hard data... your link is based on someone who "On referendum day I surveyed 12,369 people after they had voted". I'm not sure how well versed you are in statistical research, but it sounds, let's say politely, inconclusive.

 

This link is substantially better in terms of statistical reliability.

 

https://theconversation.com/inside-the-british-asian-brexit-vote-and-why-it-contains-a-few-surprises-72931

 

And here's a quote from it: 

"A number of jurisdictions with large South Asian populations delivered Leave votes, including Luton (56.5% Leave), Hillingdon (56.4% Leave), Slough (54.3% Leave) and Bradford (54.2% Leave). All have South Asian populations of 25% and above. It’s not unreasonable to think that such Leave votes could not have been delivered without a significant number of Asian voters opting for Brexit."

 

You're using this to support your thesis " They did vote, and they voted overwhelmingly to leave as far as I can make out from their discussions ", seriously?

[Rally123]

11 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Your Brexit, you deliver it.

That's right so <deleted>. I hope it's a hard Brexit.

[My Thai Life]

2 hours ago, stevenl said:

You're using this to support your thesis " They did vote, and they voted overwhelmingly to leave as far as I can make out from their discussions ", seriously?

This is know as anecdotal evidence - it was presented by Asians themselves. We use anecdotal evidence in the absence of hard data, or to critique interpretations of hard data.

 

The big problem with the Ashcroft stuff is that he didn't describe the methodology used for the poll sampling as far as I can see. Yes a sample of 12,000 is large enough, but it depends on where the sample was taken. If it was taken across a range of representative voting wards then it's a useful result. If it's based on just a few voting wards, then it would be a very good indication of what happened in those wards, but next to useless for drawing general conclusions. I haven't been able to find any description of his polling method, which is very unusual in serious stats; without such a descrption his conclusions are mere assertions. If you can provide any useful information yourself about this, please do so.

 

Stats was a key part of my Bachelor's and my Master's; I love the mucky stuff.

[Chomper Higgot]

43 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

This is know as anecdotal evidence - it was presented by Asians themselves. We use anecdotal evidence in the absence of hard data, or to critique interpretations of hard data.

 

The big problem with the Ashcroft stuff is that he didn't describe the methodology used for the poll sampling as far as I can see. Yes a sample of 12,000 is large enough, but it depends on where the sample was taken. If it was taken across a range of representative voting wards then it's a useful result. If it's based on just a few voting wards, then it would be a very good indication of what happened in those wards, but next to useless for drawing general conclusions. I haven't been able to find any description of his polling method, which is very unusual in serious stats; without such a descrption his conclusions are mere assertions. If you can provide any useful information yourself about this, please do so.

 

Stats was a key part of my Bachelor's and my Master's; I love the mucky stuff.

It’s known as an unsubstantiated account of third hand statements presented to support the views of the person giving the account.

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.  

 

[My Thai Life]

22 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It’s known as an unsubstantiated account of third hand statements presented to support the views of the person giving the account.

Actually, if you'd my read my link, you'd know that first and second accounts from Asians were presented - it's called anecdotal evidence. Here's some more for anyone actually interested in this aspect of the brexit debate.

 

Brown Girl Magazine

“But the fascinating thing that I had uncovered while doing research, was that a majority of South Asians actually voted for leaving the EU.”

https://www.browngirlmagazine.com/2018/01/the-brexit-debate-why-did-south-asians-in-the-uk-vote-to-leave-the-european-union/

 

The Guardian

“Bashir says he does not want an influx of low-skilled workers from the EU into a jobs market already overflowing with low-skilled Asian workers. “Look, I’m not saying close the doors, but we need to manage this migration,” he says.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/01/british-asians-views-eu-referendum-figures-brexit

 

Financial Times on Asians being advised to vote leave

https://www.ft.com/content/94adcefa-1dd5-11e6-a7bc-ee846770ec15

 

Inside the Asian vote, a personal view from an Asian researcher at the LSE (London School of Economics)

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/02/20/the-british-asian-vote-for-brexit-contains-a-few-surprises/

 

 

[shackleton]

13 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

@enoon. an excellent point. I wouldn't say it's a 50-50 split at all levels, nevertheless an excellent point.

 

And nowhere is the war raging more fiercely than on Thai Visa. Why?

 

> Most of us presumably live in Thailand most if not all of the time.

> Most expats didn't get the right to vote anyway.

> Whatever the outcome it doesn't materially affect me, and I guess that's true for many expats.

> Citizens, expats or not, will not affect the outcome by arguing with each other on forums.

Agree with All of the above quoted the only thing which is going to affect us all here is  the exchange rate on the pound  Pensions ect.

if the Brexit is a hard one with no deals 

The Majority of the British people voted for Brexit  so let them get on with it 

come what May ?

[bristolboy]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Actually, if you'd my read my link, you'd know that first and second accounts from Asians were presented - it's called anecdotal evidence. Here's some more for anyone actually interested in this aspect of the brexit debate.

 

Brown Girl Magazine

“But the fascinating thing that I had uncovered while doing research, was that a majority of South Asians actually voted for leaving the EU.”

https://www.browngirlmagazine.com/2018/01/the-brexit-debate-why-did-south-asians-in-the-uk-vote-to-leave-the-european-union/

 

The Guardian

“Bashir says he does not want an influx of low-skilled workers from the EU into a jobs market already overflowing with low-skilled Asian workers. “Look, I’m not saying close the doors, but we need to manage this migration,” he says.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/01/british-asians-views-eu-referendum-figures-brexit

 

Financial Times on Asians being advised to vote leave

https://www.ft.com/content/94adcefa-1dd5-11e6-a7bc-ee846770ec15

 

Inside the Asian vote, a personal view from an Asian researcher at the LSE (London School of Economics)

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/02/20/the-british-asian-vote-for-brexit-contains-a-few-surprises/

 

 

Wow! It's got a name: anecdotal evidence. Well, I guess that proves its validity. Which is why governments, social scientists, and business use anecdotal evidence to understand current situations and prepare for the future.

As opposed to using poll's like Lord Ashcroft's:

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

You know, the massive poll that had Asian opposition to Brexit at 67%.

Here's what the polling experts at fivethirtyeight.com think of Ashcroft's polls:

"Ashcroft, 69, is a member of the Conservative Party and until last week represented it in the House of Lords.¹ Despite his avowed partisanship, political scientists and other pollsters respect his polls and consider them unbiased."

 https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-billionaire-baron-who-has-transformed-how-we-understand-the-u-k-election/

 

[dunroaming]

17 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

The only section of the British "community" that I have actually seen discussing this is the Asian immigrants themselves. My conclusions are drawn from their opinions. Some well known Asians in the UK even advised Asians to vote leave for those very reasons. (Shock horror, can Asians be racist?)

Really ?

 

Well I think you will find the vast majority of those Asian immigrants are actually British citizens who were born, bred and educated in the UK.   They are as British as I am.  That is what makes the country as creative and innovative as it is.  It's the diversity of the British people from many ethnic backgrounds.  There are still the bigots out there but thankfully as time goes by most of them are dying away.

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, dunroaming said:

They are as British as I am.

This is highly a questionable assertion, unless you think being British has no more meaning than obtaining a passport. 

 

It also has something to do with speaking the language, integrating, and embracing the values of the host country. In this regard it is crystal clear that there is a huge problem with a large % of south Asian muslims in particular. 

 

If you wish to research this a bit more you could look into the varying rates of intermarriage between ethnic Britons and immigrants. Intermarriage is a simple and effective way of assessing rates of integration. You will find huge disparities across different immigrant groups.

 

Welcoming migrants and refugees is one thing, but handing out citizenship in the way that we have been doing for decades is ludicrous. The Thai system of visa control and regulation of citizenship is far superior to ours.

 

Oh by the way, did you see the news in The Guardian today about 3 muslim rapist-groomers being stripped of British citizenship? Excellent news, long overdue, and long may it continue. Let's hope it will be swiftly followed by deportation back to their real home country.

Edited August 9, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Chomper Higgot]

7 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

This is highly a questionable assertion, unless you think being British has no more meaning than obtaining a passport. 

 

It also has something to do with speaking the language, integrating, and embracing the values of the host country. In this regard it is crystal clear that there is a huge problem with a large % of south Asian muslims in particular. 

 

If you wish to research this a bit more you could look into the varying rates of intermarriage between ethnic Britons and immigrants. Intermarriage is a simple and effective way of assessing rates of integration. You will find huge disparities across different immigrant groups.

 

Welcoming migrants and refugees is one thing, but handing out citizenship in the way that we have been doing for decades is ludicrous. The Thai system of visa control and regulation of citizenship is far superior to ours.

 

Oh by the way, did you see the news in The Guardian today about 3 muslim rapist-groomers being stripped of British citizenship? Excellent news, long overdue, and long may it continue.

“The Thai system of visa control and regulation of citizenship is far superior to ours.“

 

It’s never been able to exclude criminals, and has created a few hundred thousand stateless people.

 

And I suspect you are frequently served by people you believe to be Thai but who are I fact immigrants (legal or otherwise).

 

[My Thai Life]

So many Brits think that our immigration system is somehow “normal”, it is not.

 

The UK and a small number of other European countries have a very different immigration system from most of the rest of the world. This happened by accident, not design.

 

Welcome people to come to the UK to work, Yes.

Hand out citizenship, No.

 

People are scared to say this, because they are worried that they will be called racist. It is not racist at all, it’s standard international practice.

 

I have worked in over 25 countries: my knowledge Is based on experience as well as research.

 

Let’s hope there will be fundamental reform to the UK’s immigration rules, it’s long overdue.

 

(I have deliberately not referenced the USA, as it is a special case in this respect.)

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

This is highly a questionable assertion, unless you think being British has no more meaning than obtaining a passport. 

 

It also has something to do with speaking the language, integrating, and embracing the values of the host country. In this regard it is crystal clear that there is a huge problem with a large % of south Asian muslims in particular. 

 

If you wish to research this a bit more you could look into the varying rates of intermarriage between ethnic Britons and immigrants. Intermarriage is a simple and effective way of assessing rates of integration. You will find huge disparities across different immigrant groups.

 

Welcoming migrants and refugees is one thing, but handing out citizenship in the way that we have been doing for decades is ludicrous. The Thai system of visa control and regulation of citizenship is far superior to ours.

 

Oh by the way, did you see the news in The Guardian today about 3 muslim rapist-groomers being stripped of British citizenship? Excellent news, long overdue, and long may it continue. Let's hope it will be swiftly followed by deportation back to their real home country.

If you read my post I said these so called immigrants were born, bred and raised in the UK.  As I was.  If you cannot distinguish that then you aren't paying attention.

 

Clearly you have issues with non white British people but that is your problem. 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

This is highly a questionable assertion, unless you think being British has no more meaning than obtaining a passport. 

 

It also has something to do with speaking the language, integrating, and embracing the values of the host country. In this regard it is crystal clear that there is a huge problem with a large % of south Asian muslims in particular. 

 

If you wish to research this a bit more you could look into the varying rates of intermarriage between ethnic Britons and immigrants. Intermarriage is a simple and effective way of assessing rates of integration. You will find huge disparities across different immigrant groups.

 

Welcoming migrants and refugees is one thing, but handing out citizenship in the way that we have been doing for decades is ludicrous. The Thai system of visa control and regulation of citizenship is far superior to ours.

 

Oh by the way, did you see the news in The Guardian today about 3 muslim rapist-groomers being stripped of British citizenship? Excellent news, long overdue, and long may it continue. Let's hope it will be swiftly followed by deportation back to their real home country.

Yes. Good news, the wheels of British justice may be slow but they grind exceeding fine.

[bristolboy]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

So many Brits think that our immigration system is somehow “normal”, it is not.

 

The UK and a small number of other European countries have a very different immigration system from most of the rest of the world. This happened by accident, not design.

 

Welcome people to come to the UK to work, Yes.

Hand out citizenship, No.

 

People are scared to say this, because they are worried that they will be called racist. It is not racist at all, it’s standard international practice.

 

I have worked in over 25 countries: my knowledge Is based on experience as well as research.

 

Let’s hope there will be fundamental reform to the UK’s immigration rules, it’s long overdue.

 

(I have deliberately not referenced the USA, as it is a special case in this respect.)

Please share with us the sources of your research.

[stevenl]

3 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

So many Brits think that our immigration system is somehow “normal”, it is not.

 

The UK and a small number of other European countries have a very different immigration system from most of the rest of the world. This happened by accident, not design.

 

Welcome people to come to the UK to work, Yes.

Hand out citizenship, No.

 

People are scared to say this, because they are worried that they will be called racist. It is not racist at all, it’s standard international practice.

 

I have worked in over 25 countries: my knowledge Is based on experience as well as research.

 

Let’s hope there will be fundamental reform to the UK’s immigration rules, it’s long overdue.

 

(I have deliberately not referenced the USA, as it is a special case in this respect.)

It happened by design, due to obligations to previous colonies.

[rickudon]

The younger generation are overwhelmingly remainers. A load of old embittered fossils voted leave because they wanted to put the Great back in Britain, but didn't realise they were about 30 years too late. Unfortunately the youth were to busy enjoying themselves to vote, and will have to live with the consequences. The majority of leavers will be dead, or buried in there nursing homes, by the time the final outcome is recorded for posterity.

 

Just a couple of personal thoughts.

 

1. Rather than save the UK, Brexit will be the vehicle of it's dissolution. Northern Ireland and Scotland will leave within 20 years, probably a lot less.

 

2. The result from the referendum has it's seeds in the bonfire of British Industry in the 80's. Yes, it was inefficient and outdated, but we scrapped it instead of modernising. I remember when i lived in Birmingham it used to take me nearly an hour to walk past the British Leyland complex or other factories, and the Black country was black from all the small workshops in it. By 1990 they were all gone, or just ghosts of themselves. The people who worked in those places suffered from Thatchers service based economy.

 

3, England will find it's future place in the world - think of Poland, or a larger version of Portugal (faded glory). Hopefully not Venezuela ......

 

 

[thaiguzzi]

On ‎8‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 8:13 PM, snoop1130 said:

Goole port, 30 km (20 miles) to the east, once shipped British coal out. Now it imports bricks, vegetable oil and timber from Europe and beyond.

Eee by gum.

Goole, righteous birthplace of the famous one & only TG...

[rickudon]

On 8/9/2018 at 10:58 PM, hyku1147 said:

What percentage of the population voted Leave? Surely, it was not only senior citizens.

Youth are easily propagandized - thus explaining their Remain vote. Let me guess, the Remain media campaign consisted of advertising that equated Remaining with being cool, smart, and modern. In contrast, it equated Leaving with isolationism, and antiquated values?

I know, 52%. But older people turned out to vote, younger ones didn't. According to this site, 73% under 24 voted remain. Why? Because they like being able to travel around europe easily, and often have European friends (like my son). 

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/how-did-young-people-vote-brexit-referendum/

 

I am a senior citizen, but benefited from being able to travel through Europe and enjoyed being a European. Those factory workers and miners were not screwed by the EU, but by the UK government. I had to 'get on my bike' and leave Birmingham and find a job down south like so many others. I would have preferred to stay in Birmingham area.