UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[aright]

1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

change first language? nothing wrong with scouse, just ask John Lennon

 

 

Calm down! Calm down!

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, BwindiBoy said:

That you're pompous?

And easily manipulated by remain propaganda.

[Orac]

 
when you say correct above, I take it that it refers to the Tory internal process
 
I assume that parliament, if they so fancy, can run a non-confidence vote monthly?
 

Labour could call for one but do not have the numbers since there is virtually no chance of any Tory MP voting with them and DUP would back the govt under their agreement - though they make a lot of noise they would not support Corbyn.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[adammike]

5 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Did that person also make the point that in the UK you can denounce the government without fear whereas in North Korea such behaviour will get you executed. Maybe the UK government should align with North Korea the the way it treats critics?

 

And as for the conditions faced by a white European in Thailand, are you suggesting that a non-white European would be treated differently? Or is it your belief that only white people can be Europeans? Either way, congratulations on revealing your racism. 

Duh!

[dick dasterdly]

58 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

This sounds like it has become something of personal crusade Mr.G? ???? It needn't be. Would only be a waste of your time.

 

You disagree with me on most points - in fact we're often diametrically opposed, but that's fine, nothing wrong with it in fact.

I only told you to 'pipe down' in the first place because you brought up, what I see as, pretty arrogant assumptions in your post, yet again. I think you know what I'm speaking of. I had already answered your question along the same lines some time ago at least once with the honest answer, yet you still bring it up.

 

'Cantab? you're no Cantab!' The inference being - if I was Cambridge Uni educated then I wouldn't believe in the Brexit cause - a cause you happen to vehemently disagree with!

And look, I didn't really mean to insult you in the first place, it was a gentle ribbing, maybe you took it to heart a little too much? ???? Considering the pretty vitriolic comments you aim at other posters on here, perhaps you shouldn't do?

 

In any case, it is this aforementioned tone of pure condescension that runs through the whole Remaoner rhetoric that gets our collective goat on this side, I think it's fair to say.

 

'We Remainers are all awfully well educated don't you know, we really rather think you should listen to us, as we know best', etc. etc.

These same people with Russell Group Uni degrees coming out of the wazoo, seem to have hardly ever worked a day in their life nor seem to have a firm grasp on economics, business or the realities of the EU outside of the received wisdom their cohorts and professors have instilled in them. Living in an echo chamber, basically.

Judging by the blatant lack of astuteness of many people who like to make a point of mentioning their quality education, standards must've slipped! This could be witnessed time and again in the Brexit campaign, with the BBC doing a stellar job of platforming a vast array of venal dullards of the same ilk - promoting the EU cause without seemingly understanding or experiencing any of it's obvious flaws.

 

To address your point briefly re: Thatcher - something that happened throughout the 1980s that needs to happen again, IMO, is a reduction in the size of the state and its influence. The EU will never ever do that, their raison d'etre is consolidation of control and centralisation of that power - this can be seen in the very trajectory of the institution's  increased influence in everyday life as well as its growth into new and previously uncharted territory.

From a single market - to a customs union - to a political union - to a currency union - to a military union. It's insidious march towards totalitarian control is, I'd wager - not what the masses want - or ever voted for. We were never even consulted about any of it. It's complete lack of democracy can be witnessed time and again, so when you start saying we are far more interested in social justice and consensus/greater good for society and then in the same breath associate any of these notions with the EU, it only solidifies my view that you are misinformed about the subject & unable to appraise the facts. So to be honest, there is little point in discussing this topic with you further.

If the EU were simply what it started out as, I personally, would have no problem with it. Alas, it's mutated into a monster over the last 40 years, and it's high time it was vanquished. What with Brexit; Italian, Hungarian and Polish dissent and the mounting Eurozone/migrant crises I'd say it's days are very much numbered.

 

I would also add - you didn't even attempt to answer my question I notice, what part of what I said was incorrect or 'nonsense'?  

Apart from the penultimate para. - I agree.

 

The EEC included CAP......

Edited November 21, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

I have been advised that Brexiters do not like to be thought of as stupid or uneducated morons!

 

Now I posted this excellent and informative piece by Prof Dougan several hours ago and not a single comment has been posted!

 

What should I conclude?

That those with a different opinion are not as easily 'taken in' as you?

[nontabury]

10 hours ago, kwilco said:

It's straight forward international aviation law...nothing to do with any project fear. If you are no longer a signatory to EU flight regs, you can't fly.

I think I’ll take the opinion of the Swedish CEO of Easyjet, who says otherwise,over your blinkered opinion.

[dick dasterdly]

 

47 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

They changed their name to UKIP. 

Hardly....

 

Monster raving loony party was always a protest vote, whilst UKIP attracted those that were anti-EU.

Edited November 21, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

15 minutes ago, nontabury said:

I think I’ll take the opinion of the Swedish CEO of Easyjet, who says otherwise,over your blinkered opinion.

 

Ryan Air HO -

 

'It is worth emphasising that it would be in no-one's interest to ground aircraft. The cogs of business would still need to turn, and people will still need to travel, despite Brexit. Everyone would be looking for a quick fix".

'Again, this is a point that was emphasised by Philip Hammond.'

"It's very clear," he said, "that mutual self-interest means that even if talks break down, even if there is no deal, there will be a very strong compulsion on both sides to reach agreement on an air traffic services arrangement as early as possible to avoid any disruption."

 

Johan Lungdren - EasyJet CEO

 

"I feel confident that flying will continue with Easyjet – uninterrupted as well without any problems because we have also seen statements from the European Commission as late as last week when they confirmed they would protect air traffic rights, and that’s something that’s been reciprocated by the UK government."

 

“We take those things into the context of our own preparation and that makes me confident that flying will continue post-March 2019."

 

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-11-20/easyjet-ceo-johan-lundgren-confident-flights-will-continue-in-a-no-deal-brexit/

 

Same old shi** from the project fear crowd.

Let's raise our glasses to the sky falling in. 

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Wanderlust]

And now, a little musical interlude...

 

[nontabury]

4 hours ago, Orac said:

 

I get the impression that both hard brexiteers and vocal remainers have become very much a minority with most people now wishing the whole thing would go away. Noticeable that even the ERG cannot get the support of the 48 Tory MPs they need to push a leadership challenge despite it being only 15% of them and the remain side only have a small handful that have stood up to be counted - guess the rest are trying to hide out of the way hoping it blows over.




Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

Not at all surprising that no more than 48 signed up, as we all know and can agree on is the fact that most MP are remainers. The problem will occur when we next inter into the ballet booth. Will voters support their M.P who did not implement their democratic decision. Or maybe they will abstain from voting altogether, realising that their vote is likely to be overridden and as such is irrelevant. Thus leading to an increase of the 33% who at present do not vote.

Democracy U.K style.

 

[dick dasterdly]

24 minutes ago, nontabury said:

I think I’ll take the opinion of the Swedish CEO of Easyjet, who says otherwise,over your blinkered opinion.

For some obscure reason Kwilco still thinks flights in and out of the eu (to the UK) would be grounded if we genuinely left the eu ????.

 

Leave him to his delusions....

Edited November 21, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[vogie]

I wonder just how many remainers we will have defecting to the leave side after the discovery of  amendment 586.

[vinny41]

6 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

Prof Dougan strikes again. 

 

Essential watching for those actually interested in the facts

 

Dick, please watch this.

The one thing professor Michael Dougan, of Liverpool University, seems less than keen to reveal is that he is holder of a Jean Monnet chair at the university. It's not that he keeps it a secret – just that he doesn't make a point of declaring it. 

However, that means his post is supported by EU funds, typically worth €50,000 over three years. And, while post-holders deny bias, they are in effect paid agents of the EU. 

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86112

EU-funded professors deny claims of bias from Brexit campaigners

 

Jean Monnet chairs say they encourage full debate on the union, although one has written that when the EU is criticised, ‘our instinct is to defend it’

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/european-union-eu-funded-professors-deny-claims-of-bias-from-brexit-campaigners

Edited November 21, 2018 by vinny41

[NightSky]

Whatever the final outcome I just wish they would hurry up and get it done with, the pound dropped off a cliff edge the day after the referendum in Feb 2016 and hasn't budged since. 

 

Hurry up and stop messing around I say,  so that we can give Sterling and UK business (and overseas expats who rely on UK funds) a chance again. 

Edited November 21, 2018 by NightSky

[melvinmelvin]

56 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

Ryan Air HO -

 

'It is worth emphasising that it would be in no-one's interest to ground aircraft. The cogs of business would still need to turn, and people will still need to travel, despite Brexit. Everyone would be looking for a quick fix".

'Again, this is a point that was emphasised by Philip Hammond.'

"It's very clear," he said, "that mutual self-interest means that even if talks break down, even if there is no deal, there will be a very strong compulsion on both sides to reach agreement on an air traffic services arrangement as early as possible to avoid any disruption."

 

Johan Lungdren - EasyJet CEO

 

"I feel confident that flying will continue with Easyjet – uninterrupted as well without any problems because we have also seen statements from the European Commission as late as last week when they confirmed they would protect air traffic rights, and that’s something that’s been reciprocated by the UK government."

 

“We take those things into the context of our own preparation and that makes me confident that flying will continue post-March 2019."

 

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-11-20/easyjet-ceo-johan-lundgren-confident-flights-will-continue-in-a-no-deal-brexit/

 

Same old shi** from the project fear crowd.

Let's raise our glasses to the sky falling in. 

 

 

see post 9312 above

 

 

raise glasses?

 

Gents, please join me in a toast

To wives and girlfriends, cheers

Thank you. Ahem, may they never meet.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[nontabury]

Over the last two years, we have had many conflicting posts,regarding Brexit, some good, some not so good.

But today we have surpassed ourselves, we have been treated to probably the three best post over this period,in just one day.

So thanks to -

Jag post 9349

CanterbrigianBangkok post 9359

denby45 post 9360

 

 

 

[talahtnut]

30 minutes ago, vogie said:

I wonder just how many remainers we will have defecting to the leave side after the discovery of  amendment 586.

If you have a Birth Certificate you unwittingly became

property of the State and used as collateral for trading

on the Stock Exchange. Whether page 586 is true or false,

I would not be surprised either way.

[dunroaming]

35 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Not at all surprising that no more than 48 signed up, as we all know and can agree on is the fact that most MP are remainers. The problem will occur when we next inter into the ballet booth. Will voters support their M.P who did not implement their democratic decision. Or maybe they will abstain from voting altogether, realising that their vote is likely to be overridden and as such is irrelevant. Thus leading to an increase of the 33% who at present do not vote.

Democracy U.K style.

 

You are right most MPs from all parties are remainers and there may well be fallout at the next general election. Possibly why the Tories are so desperate to avoid one. I can tell you with some confidnce that Raab will not get re-elected in Esher.  He has even had to stop going in our local Deli for breakfast (usually has the full English) because of vitriol from other customers.  The vast majority of his constituents voted remain.

 

As May sets off to Brussels again Amber Rudd has been the first to openly say that there will not be a no-deal as the house would block it.  Does make it harder for May to hold her ground in Belgium and not give in to any other concessions as she has always used the no-deal threat when negotiating.   If no-deal really is off the table then the options left would appear to be May's Chequers fiasco or no Brexit or back to the people.

[vinny41]

5 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

You are right most MPs from all parties are remainers and there may well be fallout at the next general election. Possibly why the Tories are so desperate to avoid one. I can tell you with some confidnce that Raab will not get re-elected in Esher.  He has even had to stop going in our local Deli for breakfast (usually has the full English) because of vitriol from other customers.  The vast majority of his constituents voted remain.

 

As May sets off to Brussels again Amber Rudd has been the first to openly say that there will not be a no-deal as the house would block it.  Does make it harder for May to hold her ground in Belgium and not give in to any other concessions as she has always used the no-deal threat when negotiating.   If no-deal really is off the table then the options left would appear to be May's Chequers fiasco or no Brexit or back to the people.

The issue when Amber Rudd speaks is 

1) is she saying something that she believes in

2) Is she saying something that her brother wants her to say

ANDREW PIERCE: Meet the City spinmeister orchestrating the plot to reverse Brexit

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5846539/ANDREW-PIERCE-Meet-City-spinmeister-orchestrating-plot-reverse-Brexit.html

[bomber]

7 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

Prof Dougan strikes again. 

 

Essential watching for those actually interested in the facts

 

Dick, please watch this.

University of Liverpool  ???????? OMG 

[AlexRich]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

The issue when Amber Rudd speaks is 

1) is she saying something that she believes in

2) Is she saying something that her brother wants her to say

ANDREW PIERCE: Meet the City spinmeister orchestrating the plot to reverse Brexit

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5846539/ANDREW-PIERCE-Meet-City-spinmeister-orchestrating-plot-reverse-Brexit.html

 

I can say quite honestly that I’m not on George Soros’s payroll or have ever been someone who Is politically engaged ... but I do think this Brexit adventure is the biggest single error ever made by a British electorate in my lifetime, and many people, including many who voted for it, will pay a price. 

 

The internet has been a great invention but one major downside is that opinions are replacing facts, and emotions and feelings are driving decision making. Added to that there are organised groups, home and abroad, crafting propaganda to influence or thinking. But not everything is a conspiracy. And it’s no surprise that Rudd and her brother, raised in the same house, share similar views. As a cabinet minister she is backing May’s plan, and if successful the UK leaves the EU, and in the final agreement most probably the customs union too. The only alternative government is Corbyn, and with him you are in the single market and customs union. I don’t see Rudd as part of a shady group of conspirators ... just someone doing her job.

[billd766]

19 hours ago, bristolboy said:

"and maybe that explains why Farage, who clearly disagrees with that,  had no trouble in supporting a 2nd referendum back when."

Is your point that I should have written "he supported the idea of a 2nd referendum back when?"

You think that's significant? What is significant is that Farage didn't think one referendum was enough if the vote was 52-48 percent against Brexit. What part of that don't you understand?

The part where he was not in the government and that no second referendum ever came of it

 

Exactly the same as so many remainers have also been trying to get a second referendum since they lost the first one 2 years ago. 

 

Despite the government saying for the last 2 years or so that there will NOT be a second referendum, the Remainers have been crying for ever since 2016.

 

The answer to a second referendum has ALWAYS been NO, no matter who calls for it.

 

What don't you understand about that?

[dunroaming]

8 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

The issue when Amber Rudd speaks is 

1) is she saying something that she believes in

2) Is she saying something that her brother wants her to say

ANDREW PIERCE: Meet the City spinmeister orchestrating the plot to reverse Brexit

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5846539/ANDREW-PIERCE-Meet-City-spinmeister-orchestrating-plot-reverse-Brexit.html

The Daily Mail does tend to give a skewed view even though they have softened their vitriol towards May somewhat.

 

It has been said many times (you may remember May's 3 hours fielding questions in the house) that no-deal wouldn't wash but this is the first time that someone in the cabinet has openly said it.  Rudd is a remainer so we can expect her to pitch that way but she is also a May supporter.

[bomber]

48 minutes ago, NightSky said:

Whatever the final outcome I just wish they would hurry up and get it done with, the pound dropped off a cliff edge the day after the referendum in Feb 2016 and hasn't budged since. 

 

Hurry up and stop messing around I say,  so that we can give Sterling and UK business (and overseas expats who rely on UK funds) a chance again. 

someone on here yesterday was looking forward to the weaker pound as it would start an export led recovery after brexit ???? export what we dont make anything anymore and will be making even less once the BIG 4 car makers relocate, we certainly cannot compete with china/india etc,but we will have the most skilled tatty pickers in the world tho????

[bomber]

10 minutes ago, billd766 said:

The part where he was not in the government and that no second referendum ever came of it

 

Exactly the same as so many remainers have also been trying to get a second referendum since they lost the first one 2 years ago. 

 

Despite the government saying for the last 2 years or so that there will NOT be a second referendum, the Remainers have been crying for ever since 2016.

 

The answer to a second referendum has ALWAYS been NO, no matter who calls for it.

 

What don't you understand about that?

why do the leave voters fear a 2nd vote.Its clear now whats involved unlike the NF/BJ circus before the vote,remain would win at a canter and they know it,and should spare us the Comrade Corbyn.

Edited November 21, 2018 by bomber

[AlexRich]

18 minutes ago, billd766 said:

The part where he was not in the government and that no second referendum ever came of it

 

Exactly the same as so many remainers have also been trying to get a second referendum since they lost the first one 2 years ago. 

 

Despite the government saying for the last 2 years or so that there will NOT be a second referendum, the Remainers have been crying for ever since 2016.

 

The answer to a second referendum has ALWAYS been NO, no matter who calls for it.

 

What don't you understand about that?

 

Clearly, and not for the first time, it is you that demonstrates an inability to understand the point that is being made, either wilfully or through genuine ignorance. I’ll let others decide which is which.

 

Farage indicated on the eve of the vote results that he would continue to fight for Leave if the result narrowly went against him, 48% to 52% was the example he used. He had no problem in pursuing another vote in that situation, so he is a hypocrite for denying remainers the same opportunity or criticising them for seeking another referendum.

 

The government’s position is that there will be no second vote. If they can get their deal through that will be the end of the matter. If they cannot and attempt to go along with a no deal scenario they will lose a vote of confidence and be out of power. They will have no choice but to offer a new vote to the public ... MPs in both parties will not allow no deal to happen. May knows this, she’s already conceded that point with her comment about “no Brexit at all”. The last thing the Tory party wants is a general election, followed by a Corbyn government. All those old people that happily vote for a no deal Brexit because it does not affect them will then be looking forward to Corbyn wealth taxes on property and other assets. When Brexit affects you financially you start to look at it differently.

Edited November 21, 2018 by AlexRich

[damascase]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

The one thing professor Michael Dougan, of Liverpool University, seems less than keen to reveal is that he is holder of a Jean Monnet chair at the university. It's not that he keeps it a secret – just that he doesn't make a point of declaring it. 

However, that means his post is supported by EU funds, typically worth €50,000 over three years. And, while post-holders deny bias, they are in effect paid agents of the EU. 

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86112

EU-funded professors deny claims of bias from Brexit campaigners

 

Jean Monnet chairs say they encourage full debate on the union, although one has written that when the EU is criticised, ‘our instinct is to defend it’

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/european-union-eu-funded-professors-deny-claims-of-bias-from-brexit-campaigners

Of course, if you don’t like the message, attack the messenger............

[billd766]

7 hours ago, vogie said:

Not a lot of people know that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_PX1cVuaVA

 

[billd766]

5 hours ago, transam said:

You remind me of a time in the UK's history when Brits actually voted for the Communist, Black Shirt and Monster Raving Loony parties...????

Nothing wrong with Screaming Lord Sutch.