UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[melvinmelvin]

15 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Maybe she has more of layered plans for the future.

 

while Delay on Brexit 

  do try to convince UK to stay with EU

 

  If UK stays with EU

    then Scotland stays with UK

    else Scotland votes for independence and joins EU by itself

  fi

 done

 

 

16 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Maybe she has more of layered plans for the future.

 

while Delay on Brexit 

  do try to convince UK to stay with EU

 

  If UK stays with EU

    then Scotland stays with UK

    else Scotland votes for independence and joins EU by itself

  fi

 done

 

 

WHILE brexit=FALSE BEGIN WHILE stay(uk,eu)=FALSE DO argue(uk,eu) END

 

IF stay(uk,eu)=TRUE THEN stay(scotland,uk)=TRUE

                                      ELSE BEGIN

                                                 uk=uk-scotland;

                                                 eu=eu+scotland

                                                 END

 

 

rightm sorry oilinki, will stop play now,  will have an iso olut

 

[My Thai Life]

Regarding superstates, I came across this this morning, from Jean Monnet, one of the founders of the EU, 1952.

 

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually lead to federation.”

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, My Thai Life said:

Regarding superstates, I came across this this morning, from Jean Monnet, one of the founders of the EU, 1952.

 

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually lead to federation.”

So, the rumours are true. Monnet is not dead but directing EU policy from his hidden lair located directly beneath the Reichstag.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

6 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

So, the rumours are true. Monnet is not dead but directing EU policy from his hidden lair located directly beneath the Reichstag.

 

No, thank god. He's long gone, but has in turn been replaced by a continuous stream of  sycophants and like-minded demagogues.

 

“I have never understood why public opinion about European ideas should be taken into account at all,”

(French PM Raymond Barre)

 

“They must go on voting until they get it right.”

(Jose Manuel Barroso, President of the European Commission)

 

“I have read some of [the Lisbon Treaty] but not all of it.”

(Caroline Flint, former Minister for Europe)

 

“[Norway] held a referendum [on the EU] that went the wrong way”

(Douglas Hurd, former Foreign Secretary on the Maastricht Treaty)

 

“Decisions taken by the most democratic institutions in the world are very often wrong.”

(Jose Manuel Barroso 2010)

 

“A European currency will lead to member nations transferring their sovereignty over financial and wage policy as well as monetary affairs.”

(Hans Tietmeyer, head of the Bundesbank, 1991)

 

“It is an illusion to think that [EU] states can hold on to their autonomy.”

(Hans Tietmeyer, head of the Bundesbank 1991)

 

“Let’s be clear about this. The rejection of the constitution was a mistake that will have to be corrected.”

(Valéry Giscard d’Estaing)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

“The EU is the old Soviet Union dressed in Western clothes”

(President Gorbachev)

 

“If you go through all the structures and features of this emerging European monster you will notice that it more and more resembles the Soviet Union.”

(Russian dissident Vladimir Bukovsky)

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Regarding superstates, I came across this this morning, from Jean Monnet, one of the founders of the EU, 1952.

 

I found a few more to add to the list. ? 

Not a difficult thing to do, there's been enough of it put out there in the last half century.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

7 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You don’t like things written in a way that layout the uncomfortable truth.

 

Have a go at challenging what I stated (without making stuff up).

 

But you are simply speculating, from a bias starting point. Nothing you have said is factual.

[CG1 Blue]

15 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

U said UK.

I think more of criminals who then buy cheap chlorine chicken, then label them in the garage new, and try to sell them with much profit as quality produkts.

You think people would pay a premium price for chickens that a bloke sells from his garage? ?

[My Thai Life]

11 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

No, thank god. He's long gone, but has in turn been replaced by a continuous stream of  sycophants and like-minded demagogues.

Dead right. Not least of all Juncker, whose playbook is taken straight from Monnet. As Juncker said of the of the Lisbon treaty:

 

“Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?”

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

7 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Dead right. Not least of all Juncker, whose playbook is taken straight from Monnet. As Juncker said of the of the Lisbon treaty:

 

“Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?”

The game plan all along. Benefiting a very select few most of all.

 

And yet there are still many ( some on this very forum ? ) who, despite the admissions of people like Juncker, Barroso, Barre, D'Estaing, Schultz, Monnet and others, believe that the EU is a benevolent structure devoid of imperial ambition, existing to deliver freedoms and support to the man in the street. Laughable.

Edited September 21, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

From the BBC News website this morning.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45596470

 

"Prime Minister Theresa May says her plan for the UK and EU to share a "common rulebook" for goods, but not services, is the only credible way to avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland."

 

The statement shows out of touch with reality the woman is. Why on earth should the EU consider changing the Single Market Act to accommodate a half in/half out fudge of a scenario. 

She has stated time and time again that the UK will leave the single market and then tries to demand that the UK remain part of the single market for goods, is it any wonder they keep referring to cakes.

The only credible way to avoid problems in Ireland is to remain as it is now and sooner or later she will have to come to her senses.

[melvinmelvin]

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

"Prime Minister Theresa May says her plan for the UK and EU to share a "common rulebook" for goods, but not services, is the only credible way to avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland."

 

The statement shows out of touch with reality the woman is. Why on earth should the EU consider changing the Single Market Act to accommodate a half in/half out fudge of a scenario. 

She has stated time and time again that the UK will leave the single market and then tries to demand that the UK remain part of the single market for goods, is it any wonder they keep referring to cakes.

The only credible way to avoid problems in Ireland is to remain as it is now and sooner or later she will have to come to her senses.

 

those senses you ramble about

is she in posession of 'em?

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, oilinki said:

The no-deal, where we are heading towards, will hurt both parties. Yet both parties will eventually deal with the new situation.

There is no such thing as a "no deal" scenario. There are those that talk about a "no deal" and then in the same breath say it will not happen, even the government.

The only question of any significance is when what deals that are to be made will be made and how will they impact on peoples future prosperity. The way things are going TM's cake is going to end up choking her.

[My Thai Life]

May developed the Chequers approach as a way of avoiding a hard border around Northern Ireland;  and to avoid frictionless trade in general.

 

Given that key figures in the EU and the UK (Rees-Mogg & co, Tusk, Barnier) advocate a Free Trade agreement and an invisible NI/Ireland border with the various import/export controls taking place away from the border, it seems that this is the best way to go. It also has the benefit of actually delivering on the referendum result.

 

Its also doable by March 2019, not the detailed agreement of course, but a framework agreement.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

ok, so your take is that to the lady staying in EU is more important than getting rid of UK

 

don't think I share your views expressed in the last para,

should Scotland opt out she would be fast-tracked back in EU me thinks

hard border; for sure, Scotland can not opt out of Schengen as UK and Ireland did

not only that; there will also be a massive Schengen sea border to take care of

 

I think so but there will be a lot of details to clear up before that happens. For example what will happen to all the UK military bases and jobs in Scotland? will they revert back to England and Scotland to pay for the cost of them? Did you know that ALL UK servicemen in Scotland get an extra tax allowance from the UK government because not only do they pay UK national income tax but an extra Scottish income tax also?

 

How about Scottish companies who own water, electricity and gas companies in the UK, should they pay extra tax or be forced to sell off to English companies.

 

At present Scotland uses the Scottish pound as a currency in Scotland and some parts of the UK but it is not actually legal tender.

 

What happens if Scotland attempts to join the EU but is not financially viable as for example Greece was not. Will the EU break its own rules again to allow them in?

 

There must be thousands more problems like that just lurking under the surface.

[tebee]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

those senses you ramble about

is she in posession of 'em?

I rather think Mrs May is on the way out - but just who would want to step into her shoes ?

 

You know what they say about people who stand in the middle of the road?

 

 

 

 

 

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Regarding superstates, I came across this this morning, from Jean Monnet, one of the founders of the EU, 1952.

 

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually lead to federation.”

The continentals don't play much cricket, eh?

[aright]

9 hours ago, sandyf said:

Obviously there is your idea of CE marking and then there is reality.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-short-film-euan-robinson-eu-theresa-may-peoples-vote-a8546786.html

Of course people can change their mind ...no problem with that and part of my evidence is based  anecdotally on an acquaintance who produces pressure vessels and expects no problems with certification beyond the usual, but accepts it might take a little longer and be a tad more expensive but these are all built in costs. Your evidence seems to relate to a time when Christ was a Carpenter and seems not to be substantiated by modern day practice. Your independent reference is interesting and very broad brush but don't see where it refers to accreditation, so can I ask the question again.

"Can you point to the business communities world wide who will stop dealing with the EU because of these costs" 

 

 

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, aright said:

Of course people can change their mind ...no problem with that and part of my evidence is based  anecdotally on an acquaintance who produces pressure vessels and expects no problems with certification beyond the usual, but accepts it might take a little longer and be a tad more expensive but these are all built in costs. Your evidence seems to relate to a time when Christ was a Carpenter and seems not to be substantiated by modern day practice. Your independent reference is interesting and very broad brush but don't see where it refers to accreditation, so can I ask the question again.

"Can you point to the business communities world wide who will stop dealing with the EU because of these costs" 

 

 

Integrated supply lines and just-in-time delivery are concepts you are not familiar with?

Parts crossing and recrossing borders and subject to tariffs each time is news to you?

[aright]

Just now, bristolboy said:

Integrated supply lines and just-in-time delivery are concepts you are not familiar with?

Parts crossing and recrossing borders and subject to tariffs each time is news to you?

Integrated supply lines and jit  are not the subject of this conversation. We are discussing the possible future problems of UK  getting pertinent goods accredited. Pressure vessels and complex Medical Equipment are not jit items.   As a matter of interest what do you glean from a conversation on accreditation that makes you think I am not familiar with jit and supply lines?  

[bristolboy]

Just now, aright said:

Integrated supply lines and jit  are not the subject of this conversation. We are discussing the possible future problems of UK  getting pertinent goods accredited. Pressure vessels and complex Medical Equipment are not jit items.   As a matter of interest what do you glean from a conversation on accreditation that makes you think I am not familiar with jit and supply lines?  

My mistake.

[bristolboy]

22 minutes ago, aright said:

Of course people can change their mind ...no problem with that and part of my evidence is based  anecdotally on an acquaintance who produces pressure vessels and expects no problems with certification beyond the usual, but accepts it might take a little longer and be a tad more expensive but these are all built in costs. Your evidence seems to relate to a time when Christ was a Carpenter and seems not to be substantiated by modern day practice. Your independent reference is interesting and very broad brush but don't see where it refers to accreditation, so can I ask the question again.

"Can you point to the business communities world wide who will stop dealing with the EU because of these costs" 

 

 

Isn't the problem rather with the possibility of de-certifiication of UK certifying agencies if Brexit doesn't address that question?

[aright]

11 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Isn't the problem rather with the possibility of de-certifiication of UK certifying agencies if Brexit doesn't address that question?

I don't know. According to the regs only new products need accrediting. I would assume that any accredited product under the current directive would be ok but under a new directive or specification  might need additional testing however that would apply to EU and global products as well. As it says below most products can be assessed by the manufacturers . To remove that I think would be regarded as a cynical act globally and would result in quid pro quo action. I haven't seen anything in the press or trade papers addressing these issues. 

 

 

The CE mark is required for all new products which are subject to one or more of the European product safety Directives.  It is a visible sign that the manufacturer of the product is declaring conformity with all of the Directives relating to that product.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With the exception of some high-risk products, most products can be “self- assessed” by the manufacturer. The meaning of the CE Mark is widely misunderstood, it is not a quality mark” or “certificate of approval”, it is a declaration of the supplier's own responsibility and it allows only for the free movement of the item with the EEA it also enables the withdrawal of non-conforming products to be accomplished more easily.

[tebee]

Is Labour finally changing its position ? Keir_Starmer on BBC news said Labour’s Brexit position was : PM plan  will judged on what she promised, Peoples Vote on the table as an option if Parliament votes it down. Labour wants a Customs Union and Single Market package. 

[aright]

Great speech by TM this afternoon...…….hit the ball right back into the EU court. As she said it's not sensible to come up with solutions which aren't acceptable. We are much closer to a no deal today

Edited September 21, 2018 by aright

[melvinmelvin]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I think so but there will be a lot of details to clear up before that happens. For example what will happen to all the UK military bases and jobs in Scotland? will they revert back to England and Scotland to pay for the cost of them? Did you know that ALL UK servicemen in Scotland get an extra tax allowance from the UK government because not only do they pay UK national income tax but an extra Scottish income tax also?

 

How about Scottish companies who own water, electricity and gas companies in the UK, should they pay extra tax or be forced to sell off to English companies.

 

At present Scotland uses the Scottish pound as a currency in Scotland and some parts of the UK but it is not actually legal tender.

 

What happens if Scotland attempts to join the EU but is not financially viable as for example Greece was not. Will the EU break its own rules again to allow them in?

 

There must be thousands more problems like that just lurking under the surface.

agree, the problems. or challenges in EU speak, will be countless, a bit like a no deal brexit

 

one aspect though I think the EU has a grip on, not being financially viable,

the membership and the SM will be there from day one,

but costlier aspects like eg Euro and Schengen will have to wait until the new member's resources

can handle  it

 

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, aright said:

Great speech by TM this afternoon...…….hit the ball right back into the EU court. As she said it's not sensible to come up with solutions which aren't acceptable. We are much closer to a no deal today

Pound whenever Theresa May speaks.

 

As I said earlier, attitudes are about to change. Theresa May is getting into the category of Russian tourists visiting Salisbury. 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, oilinki said:

Pound whenever Theresa May speaks.

 

As I said earlier, attitudes are about to change. Theresa May is getting into the category of Russian tourists visiting Salisbury. 

 

you know what oilinki,

that curve of yours above just underlines the truth in the saying;

 

silence is gold

 

 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

you know what oilinki,

that curve of yours above just underlines the truth in the saying;

 

silence is gold

 

 

en

[kwilco]

14 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

From the BBC News website this morning.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45596470

 

Despite the fact the entire EU leadership says it isn't?

[kwilco]

8 hours ago, aright said:

Integrated supply lines and jit  are not the subject of this conversation. We are discussing the possible future problems of UK  getting pertinent goods accredited. Pressure vessels and complex Medical Equipment are not jit items.   As a matter of interest what do you glean from a conversation on accreditation that makes you think I am not familiar with jit and supply lines?  

Sadly they are...and cannot be ignored

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, aright said:

I don't know. According to the regs only new products need accrediting. I would assume that any accredited product under the current directive would be ok but under a new directive or specification  might need additional testing however that would apply to EU and global products as well. As it says below most products can be assessed by the manufacturers . To remove that I think would be regarded as a cynical act globally and would result in quid pro quo action. I haven't seen anything in the press or trade papers addressing these issues. 

 

 

The CE mark is required for all new products which are subject to one or more of the European product safety Directives.  It is a visible sign that the manufacturer of the product is declaring conformity with all of the Directives relating to that product.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With the exception of some high-risk products, most products can be “self- assessed” by the manufacturer. The meaning of the CE Mark is widely misunderstood, it is not a quality mark” or “certificate of approval”, it is a declaration of the supplier's own responsibility and it allows only for the free movement of the item with the EEA it also enables the withdrawal of non-conforming products to be accomplished more easily.

"Don't know" and "assume" says it all

 

UPDATE: On the 6^th July, The Cabinet of the United Kingdom agreed its position on the UK’s exit from the European Union. We take a look at how this may affect your CE Marking Obligations.

The cabinet agreed that the UK should maintain a common rulebook for all goods within the UK and EU following Brexit. The Government seems willing to commit to a treaty allowing ongoing harmonisation with European rules (which would by definition include CE Marking legislation) but would retain the ability to choose which future legislation it may decide to incorporate into UK law. There was also an implicit suggestion that this would only be done in the best interest of UK manufacturers.

The Government is also keen to maintain the UK’s strong position on the various International Standards Bodies on which it currently sits, effectively giving the UK leverage over the factors underpinning EU legislation if not over EU legislation itself. A full transcript of the Government statement following the Chequers agreement can be found here:

It should be stressed that this is currently only a proposal at present and will require agreement from both the UK parliament and the EU.

Should the UK Parliament and the EU agree to this model, it would suggest very little change to the current system in terms of product compliance however questions would still remain over the UK’s position in the ‘Community’ for certain aspects of the process and as such it may pay to continue to assume that the UK will sit outside of the Community following Brexit.

https://www.cemarkingassociation.co.uk/brexit-and-ce-marking-update-july-2018/