UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[mommysboy]

19 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

A trade deal is not synonymous with joining the SM. The SM is much more than just a trade deal, free or otherwise. 

 

Semantically, yes.  In fact I'd go so far as to say the free trade deal is no free trade deal at all, since there are some pretty big provisos attached to what are simple transactions, ie, A supplies, and B pays.

 

Yet there is no getting away from the fact that some people were led to believe there would be a trade deal on a par with what we have already.

It was a whopper!  No surprise Remainers are digging their heels in and demanding that exact pound of flesh!

 

I rather still think the consensus is to leave the EU, and that must happen most likely with some fudged deal, and I suspect the silent majority will make its displeasure known at the polls in no uncertain terms.  

[mommysboy]

48 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

People voted to leave the EU. Free movement of people was one of the main issues that drove the vote to leave, and free movement of people is part of the Single Market, which was created by the EU, and is one the EU policy areas. So, posters who suggest that the electorate voted to leave the EU but not the SM are just wrong, plain and simple.

 

Your first comment above is not true. Only Corbyn has said that Brexit should have the exact same benefits as EU membership - a completely crazy position to take because (i) no two deals are exactly the same and (ii) what would be the point of a referendum and two year of turmoil to replicate what we already had. And what's even crazier is that he says he's going to vote any deal down that doesn't deliver the exact same benefits. I am by no means a supporter of this Tory leadership, but Labour's leadership has gone into realms of madness never before seen in British politics – as we might expect from a lifelong backbencher who has spent most of his "career" trying to scupper his own party. It’s the only game he know how to play.

 

You are probably right in part, because that list is absolute and unattainable.  Yet we might interpret the message to Brexiteers as simply:

 

You promised all this now deliver, or else.  

 

 

It's a fair challenge in my view.  

 

Brexit is exquisitely a totally Tory driven mess, in which the right wing of the party is holding the country to ransom.  One hears plenty about the devil within the Labour ranks.  Perhaps Tories need to look closer to home.  Altogether more salient unless we are to be lost in abstraction.

Edited September 30, 2018 by mommysboy

[My Thai Life]

10 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

You are probably right in part, because that list is absolute and unattainable.  Yet we might interpret the message to Brexiteers as simply:

 

You promised all this now deliver, or else.  

 

 

It's a fair challenge in my view. 

I dont see it that way. If you're going to have tests, they have to be specific enough to be tested.They also have to be realistic. Corbyn's test are neither. He has spent his life on the backbenches trying to scupper his own party - it's the only game he knows how to play. Now he's playing it with the most important political issue we've faced for a very long time. He is completely out of his depth.

[My Thai Life]

32 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Yet there is no getting away from the fact that some people were led to believe there would be a trade deal on a par with what we have already.

It was a whopper!  No surprise Remainers are digging their heels in and demanding that exact pound of flesh!

 

I rather still think the consensus is to leave the EU, and that must happen most likely with some fudged deal, and I suspect the silent majority will make its displeasure known at the polls in no uncertain terms.  

You seem to be one of the very few posters here who is able to see both sides of an argument, which is most welcome!

 

I really did take no notice of the referendum until I started posting here. I effectively left the UK decades ago. I can see the political and economic arguments for leave (though the latter will take some time to be realised, and the short term disruption will not be insignificant). I can also see the economic arguments for remain, but the political and economic fault-lines within the EU are crystal clear and can only be resolved by major reform.

 

If anyone said that we would be able to trade with the EU after we leave on the exact same terms as we had as a member nation they were lying or uninformed or incompetent (politicaians eh!), and the proposition should have been shot down immediately. The only person I personally have seen making that claim is Corbyn. 

[My Thai Life]

44 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Brexit is exquisitely a totally Tory driven mess, in which the right wing of the party is holding the country to ransom.  One hears plenty about the devil within the Labour ranks.  Perhaps Tories need to look closer to home.  Altogether more salient unless we are to be lost in abstraction.

? Corbyn is a natural brexiter, he wants the freedom for significant government intervention in the economy which the EU does not allow. His opportunism would make even Johnson blush (if politicians were capable of doing so).

 

There is in and there is out. Half-way in and half-way out is the worst of all worlds, and wasn't what the referendum was about. Labelling Tories who are clear about this as "right wing" is a bit of a stretch to me, whatever some of their views may be about other matters.

Edited September 30, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Orac]

You seem to be one of the very few posters here who is able to see both sides of an argument, which is most welcome!
 
I really did take no notice of the referendum until I started posting here. I effectively left the UK decades ago. I can see the political and economic arguments for leave (though the latter will take some time to be realised, and the short term disruption will not be insignificant). I can also see the economic arguments for remain, but the political and economic fault-lines within the EU are crystal clear and can only be resolved by major reform.
 
If anyone said that we would be able to trade with the EU after we leave on the exact same terms as we had as a member nation they were lying or uninformed or incompetent (politicaians eh!), and the proposition should have been shot down immediately. The only person I personally have seen making that claim is Corbyn. 

Many on the right talked about staying in the SM and a Norway/EEA style deal prior to the referendum.

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[sandyf]

21 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

And what is, I think, even more relevant, is that the European Union Referendum Act of 2015 was passed in  Parliament with a huge 544-43 majority. So if people like Sandy want to respect Parliamentary democracy, they might start with that. 

Parliament has a track record of making mistakes, that does not mean there should be no attempt to correct the mistakes.

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, aright said:

Yes we are a Parliamentary Democracy and Parliament voted by 461 votes to 89 to trigger Article 50...…..Is that democratic enough for you?

Show me where I ever said it wasn't, but distorted interpretation is par for the course.

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

So, posters who suggest that the electorate voted to leave the EU but not the SM are just wrong, plain and simple.

 

The electorate is not able to make decisions, that is the responsibility of parliament.

There is no documented vote to leave the SM, it is purely an assumption, based on an assumption that all those that voted to leave understood the implications. Parliament should have voted on whether leaving the SM was to the basis of the withdrawal negotiations.

TM took that decision herself, that is autocracy, not democracy.

[melvinmelvin]

43 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

 

Many on the right talked about staying in the SM and a Norway/EEA style deal prior to the referendum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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badly informed gang, just the language they use shows they are ill informed

Farage talks less baba bobo than the others, me thinks

 

 

[sandyf]

14 hours ago, tebee said:

But all the ref asked was should we leave the EU - as I've said above we can leave the EU and stay in the SM.

 

I'm sure at least some of the people who voted leave expected us to leave the SM, but I'm equally sure most of them did not vote to make themselves poorer by doing so.

And how many that voted to leave understood that they were effectively voting for reunification in Ireland. 

Do people really think that the EU. or the brexiteers, are going to tolerate a completely open border between the EU and a third country. They are already accusing the UK of fraud over Chinese goods going to the EU.

Once the dust settles it will be goodbye to NI, I often wonder if secretly that is in fact the plan. The Belfast Agreement is also an impediment to the UK leaving the ECHR.

[dexterm]

Apologies to mods. This is a similar post to one made in another thread. Please delete earlier post in other thread if deemed inappropriate.

 

As an outsider (Brexit/Remain won't make one iota of difference to my life.)....

 

The original referendum campaign claims on both sides were shrouded in lots of hype and mythology.

 

Now that the clouds have shifted, and the real consequences of Brexit are clearer to UK voters, wouldn't it make more sense to have a second referendum based on more reliable information?

 

If the result is Brexit, so be it.
If the result is Remain, wait two or 3 more years and have a third referendum. Best out of 3.

If it does go to a third decider referendum, establish as part of the deal by law that's the final say for at least another 10 years.
Obviously one cannot continue having referenda indefinitely.

 

I know referenda are expensive affairs; so is making the wrong choice.

Quite a momentous decision for UK especially for its younger population. Wouldn't it be better for whatever the outcome that it was the result of the best possible information and experience?

[My Thai Life]

58 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The electorate is not able to make decisions, that is the responsibility of parliament.

There is no documented vote to leave the SM, it is purely an assumption, based on an assumption that all those that voted to leave understood the implications. Parliament should have voted on whether leaving the SM was to the basis of the withdrawal negotiations.

TM took that decision herself, that is autocracy, not democracy.

The referendum was endorsed via 2 General Elections and the Government's promise to enact the decision taken by the electorate. The SM was created by the EU, and it is one of the more than 30 EU policy areas. The SM is a key part of the EU, not separate from it. Ending freedom of movement was a major factor in the referendum result - or do you deny that too? Denial and fantasy is not going to help your cause.

[My Thai Life]

51 minutes ago, sandyf said:

And how many that voted to leave understood that they were effectively voting for reunification in Ireland. 

Do people really think that the EU. or the brexiteers, are going to tolerate a completely open border between the EU and a third country. They are already accusing the UK of fraud over Chinese goods going to the EU.

> The UK did not vote for Ireland reunification, and it's not going to be a consequence of Brexit.

> The EU is recommending an open border between Ireland and a third country (the UK). And Rees-Mogg and co are recommending an invisible border.

[melvinmelvin]

8 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

The referendum was endorsed via 2 General Elections and the Government's promise to enact the decision taken by the electorate. The SM was created by the EU, and it is one of the more than 30 EU policy areas. The SM is a key part of the EU, not separate from it. Ending freedom of movement was a major factor in the referendum result - or do you deny that too? Denial and fantasy is not going to help your cause.

 

referendum endorsed by GEs? what on earth does that mean?

will it not suffice just to point to the promises, Cameron before and whoever after the referendum?

 

[My Thai Life]

Just now, melvinmelvin said:

referendum endorsed by GEs? what on earth does that mean?

 

It means (i) the holding of the referendum was endorsed by the Tory manifesto for the 2015 General Election, and agreed to by the electorate when they elected the Tories at that election (ii) the Leave result was accepted by both parties in their 2017 General Election manifestos.

 

And yes, the Government committed to honouring the result by issuing a written promise to do so.

[Orac]

 
badly informed gang, just the language they use shows they are ill informed
Farage talks less baba bobo than the others, me thinks
 
 

I am unsure that they are badly informed. They are senior politicians who have been involved in EU politics for along time and will be well aware of the arguments and have needed to argue against the in the past. An alternative answer could be they are acting as politicians and seeking to mislead to get the response they want.


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[billd766]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

Parliament has a track record of making mistakes, that does not mean there should be no attempt to correct the mistakes.

 

Which is of course what Brexit is all about.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Which is of course what Brexit is all about.

Leave EU, so that your MP's and cabinet can no longer blame EU for their own mistakes?

 

Well, that's a valid reason to leave. Good for you.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Guest

[tebee]

6 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

People voted to leave the EU. Free movement of people was one of the main issues that drove the vote to leave, and free movement of people is part of the Single Market, which was created by the EU, and is one the EU policy areas. So, posters who suggest that the electorate voted to leave the EU but not the SM are just wrong, plain and simple.

 

Your first comment above is not true. Only Corbyn has said that Brexit should have the exact same benefits as EU membership - a completely crazy position to take because (i) no two deals are exactly the same and (ii) what would be the point of a referendum and two year of turmoil to replicate what we already had. And what's even crazier is that he says he's going to vote any deal down that doesn't deliver the exact same benefits. I am by no means a supporter of this Tory leadership, but Labour's leadership has gone into realms of madness never before seen in British politics – as we might expect from a lifelong backbencher who has spent most of his "career" trying to scupper his own party. It’s the only game he know how to play.

 

I think you will find a good deal of the leave leadership said before the referendum said we would have a deal with the same or better benefits.

 

But my point is you can't extrapolate from the referendum result that every leave voter  voted to leave the SM. You are making assumptions which you can't do. Some of them may have, but even if only 10% did not that means that the public voted 53% to 47% to stay in the SM - do we need another referendum to decide this point for sure  democratically ?

 

I don't think the EEA is a good idea, but it's better than all the alternatives and does respect the referendum result.

 

Hard brexit will damage the brexit cause in the long term and remain will leave many people unsatisfied.

 

Can you suggest a better compromise ? I think having 80% of the country mildly unhappy is better than having 50% completely unsatisfied. 

[aright]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Show me where I ever said it wasn't, but distorted interpretation is par for the course.

 

"Whether you like it or not the UK is a parliamentary democracy and it is that that should be respected."

 

You are loosing the plot, you seem to want to support Parliamentary Democracy but only when it supports your views. I never said you said it wasn't in fact I agreed with you by saying …. 

 

"Yes we are a Parliamentary Democracy and Parliament voted by 461 votes to 89 to trigger Article 50...…..Is that democratic enough for you?"

 

I regard that as a matter of fact. Please advise your perceived  distorted interpretation of this fact?

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Parliament has a track record of making mistakes, that does not mean there should be no attempt to correct the mistakes.

 

With your own humble majority, of course!

[My Thai Life]

9 minutes ago, tebee said:

think you will find a good deal of the leave leadership said before the referendum said we would have a deal with the same or better benefits.

 

But my point is you can't extrapolate from the referendum result that every leave voter  voted to leave the SM. You are making assumptions which you can't do

> As I've said, the only person I know of who talks about the exact same benefits is Corbyn. You may be right but you're just making an unsupported assertion at present.

 

> No, you are making the presumtions. The remainers have cast many aspersions about leavers, but the most common is that the leavers voted to leave because they are racist and don't want foreigners in the UK. In other words the Leavers voted to leave the Single Market. Surely you haven't forgotten this, or does it just not support your new line of attack.

Edited September 30, 2018 by My Thai Life

[mommysboy]

4 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

? Corbyn is a natural brexiter, he wants the freedom for significant government intervention in the economy which the EU does not allow. His opportunism would make even Johnson blush (if politicians were capable of doing so).

 

There is in and there is out. Half-way in and half-way out is the worst of all worlds, and wasn't what the referendum was about. Labelling Tories who are clear about this as "right wing" is a bit of a stretch to me, whatever some of their views may be about other matters.

 

Fully agree with half in and half out comments.

 

Pragmatically, the only solution which delivers Brexit and the pie in the sky promises made by Leavers is the Norway option (referred to as soft Brexit).

 

Ideologically, the only Brexit which delivers the autonomy which surely lies at the root of Brexit is the WTO option (no deal).

 

Anything in between, such as the Chequers deal was fairly described as 2/3 of diddly-squat imo.

 

Like many, I am sick and tired of project fear, which although not without some foundation seems to say it is impossible for the UK to survive as an independent country in the same way that most countries do.

 

One acceptable option would surely be an extension of the transition period.  This would surely be in the benefit of all concerned.  Essentially Hard Brexit by stages, it could get through Parliament.

 

 

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

The electorate is not able to make decisions, that is the responsibility of parliament.

There is no documented vote to leave the SM, it is purely an assumption, based on an assumption that all those that voted to leave understood the implications. Parliament should have voted on whether leaving the SM was to the basis of the withdrawal negotiations.

TM took that decision herself, that is autocracy, not democracy.

 

How many times do we need to listen to this? If a member leaves the EU then it leaves the SM. If that country wants access to the SM post EU membership, then it has to negotiate a way to continue access to it with the owner of the SM, which is the EU! The simplest way to do this is the Norway model (EEA).

[My Thai Life]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Pragmatically, the only solution which delivers Brexit and the pie in the sky promises made by Leavers is the Norway option (referred to as soft Brexit).

 

Ideologically, the only Brexit which delivers the autonomy which surely lies at the root of Brexit is the WTO option (no deal).

Norway is a half in half out solution isn't it?

Any free trade deal surely delivers on the referendum doesn't it?

[mommysboy]

4 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Norway is a half in half out solution isn't it?

Any free trade deal surely delivers on the referendum doesn't it?

 

What I mean is you are either in the single market or out.

 

Anything else is a poor trade off, since it could hamstring the UK while reducing the trading benefits we currently have.  

 

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2018 by mommysboy

[Srikcir]

12 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

One acceptable option would surely be an extension of the transition period. 

Only if the Chequer's Plan is replaced by a new plan. The EU is not going to counter propose a plan.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Like many, I am sick and tired of project fear, which although not without some foundation seems to say it is impossible for the UK to survive as an independent country in the same way that most countries do.

 

One acceptable option would surely be an extension of the transition period.  This would surely be in the benefit of all concerned.  Essentially Hard Brexit by stages, it could get through Parliament.

I hope there will not be any extensions to the transition period. This show has gone too far, without real progress. UK will survive naturally. It will hurt quite a lot, but it will eventually flourish. 

 

That should teach England the real meaning of no deal brexit. It would also deter other, a lot poorer, EU members, like Italy or Poland to behave within the federation. 

[Guest]

Double post for some reason. Please add 10 second delay between possibility to post new replies. 

Edited September 30, 2018 by Guest