UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[My Thai Life]

8 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

The EU is not going to counter propose a plan.

The EU has already suggested a Canada style plan, as have Rees-Mogg & co. It would also deliver on the referendum. This is doable without a border in the Irish sea.

 

The idea that the EU don't need to make proposals is not realistic. They have a huge export business to the UK - especially German industry, and they potentially have a large divorce payment.

 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

The EU has already suggested a Canada style plan, as have Rees-Mogg & co. It would also deliver on the referendum. This is doable without a border in the Irish sea.

 

The idea that the EU don't need to make proposals is not realistic. They have a huge export business to the UK - especially German industry, and they potentially have a large divorce payment.

UK's exports to Germany account for 1.3% of Germany's GDP. Naturally there will be some exports even if UK decides to go all out. 

 

Likewise there will be relocation costs of EU business out of Britain afterwards.

 

But neither of these are worthy of destroying EU's principles, nor the unity of EU. 

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, Orac said:

 

I am unsure that they are badly informed. They are senior politicians who have been involved in EU politics for along time and will be well aware of the arguments and have needed to argue against the in the past. An alternative answer could be they are acting as politicians and seeking to mislead to get the response they want.


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well,

I disagree, the English terms they use shows off that they are ill informed, no doubt,

with the exception of Farage

 

sure, I do not doubt that they are well aware of relevant arguments, that is actually showcased in the video

disagree, no act and no mislead - just lack of actual knowledge

a person with proper insight would never choose their lingo

 

[melvinmelvin]

32 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

How many times do we need to listen to this? If a member leaves the EU then it leaves the SM. If that country wants access to the SM post EU membership, then it has to negotiate a way to continue access to it with the owner of the SM, which is the EU! The simplest way to do this is the Norway model (EEA).

 

well, ok,

go for the Norway model and you will also get all the baggage that UK is now fleeing from,

whats the point?

 

[tebee]

32 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

> As I've said, the only person I know of who talks about the exact same benefits is Corbyn. You may be right but you're just making an unsupported assertion at present.

 

> No, you are making the presumtions. The remainers have cast many aspersions about leavers, but the most common is that the leavers voted to leave because they are racist and don't want foreigners in the UK. In other words the Leavers voted to leave the Single Market. Surely you haven't forgotten this, or does it just not support your new line of attack.

 

 

Hey, i've deliberately avoided playing the racist card - I am saying precisely the opposite, that not all leavers did vote to leave the SM, there was certainly a soft Brexit option on offer available to leave voters before the referendum - we don't know what percentage of leave voters voted for this rather than hard leave, but there is no certain democratic mandate  to force us to leave the SM.

 

My assumption is that it's more than the 2% that would be needed for there to be a democratic majority to stay in the SM, but the only way we will find out is to have a second referendum, until then it's equally democratic to look to an EEA solution, as it is to leave without a deal, and the former does much less damage to the economy.       

[tebee]

1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

well, ok,

go for the Norway model and you will also get all the baggage that UK is now fleeing from,

whats the point?

 

Because there is no democratic mandate to leave the SM!

[billd766]

26 minutes ago, oilinki said:

I hope there will not be any extensions to the transition period. This show has gone too far, without real progress. UK will survive naturally. It will hurt quite a lot, but it will eventually flourish. 

 

That should teach England the real meaning of no deal brexit. It would also deter other, a lot poorer, EU members, like Italy or Poland to behave within the federation. 

 

 

quote from your post

 

"It would also deter other, a lot poorer, EU members, like Italy or Poland to behave within the federation."

 

And you would call that DEMOCRACY?

 

That would be akin to ignoring the wishes of hundreds of millions of people and perhaps 18 or more countries.

 

democracy EU style, and you wonder why the UK wants to leave?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

And you would call that DEMOCRACY?

 

That would be akin to ignoring the wishes of hundreds of millions of people and perhaps 18 or more countries.

 

democracy EU style, and you wonder why the UK wants to leave?

 

I just said EXACTLY what you and your fellow brexiters has been saying constantly, what you think EU is. Aren't you happy for it? I did it for you. 

 

Sometimes it's perfectly ok to let kids to burn their hands on the fire. That way they learn not to do it again. Why EU should behave like overly protective mother for it's states who are behaving badly? 

 

Let's see you'll say once Scotland brexits and Northern Ireland want's to do the same. 

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

well, ok,

go for the Norway model and you will also get all the baggage that UK is now fleeing from,

whats the point?

 

 

All I said was it is the simplest way to leave the EU but stay in the SM. 

 

For me no point. Still too many constraints and control from the EU plus no solution to the NI dilemma.  

[aright]

15 minutes ago, tebee said:

Because there is no democratic mandate to leave the SM!

 

You have lost sight of the fact that the Single Market is more than just a free trade zone. Members are treated as one block without borders where businesses can trade on a level playing field. services , goods, investment and people can move around freely.

One of the biggest reasons given for leaving the EU was freedom of movement issues. 

I regard that as a democratic mandate.

 

 

 

[Srikcir]

34 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

The EU has already suggested a Canada style plan, as have Rees-Mogg & co. It would also deliver on the referendum. This is doable without a border in the Irish sea.

 

The idea that the EU don't need to make proposals is not realistic. They have a huge export business to the UK - especially German industry, and they potentially have a large divorce payment.

 

 

I was responding to the EU needing a time extension and the fact that it has already suggest a plan supports that the EU doesn't need a time extension. The UK was welcomed to renegotiate with such a plan but May chose not to. Furthermore, as the EU had previously suggested the Canadian plan, it has no need to continue to offer more plans.

[Orac]

 
well,
I disagree, the English terms they use shows off that they are ill informed, no doubt,
with the exception of Farage
 
sure, I do not doubt that they are well aware of relevant arguments, that is actually showcased in the video
disagree, no act and no mislead - just lack of actual knowledge
a person with proper insight would never choose their lingo
 

Interesting point of view.

I would have gone the other way in that I would have given far more leeway, though not much, to Farage who comes at it from a far more ‘emotional’ side of the argument with the LeaveEU non-official campaign rather than the ‘intellectual’ side epitomised by the likes of Dan Hannan MEP (president and founder of Institute for Free Trade) and Mathew Elliot (CEO of Vote Leave official campaign and heavily involved in various think-tanks such as Legatum and other right wing political groupings).


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[melvinmelvin]

2 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

Interesting point of view.

I would have gone the other way in that I would have given far more leeway, though not much, to Farage who comes at it from a far more ‘emotional’ side of the argument with the LeaveEU non-official campaign rather than the ‘intellectual’ side epitomised by the likes of Dan Hannan MEP (president and founder of Institute for Free Trade) and Mathew Elliot (CEO of Vote Leave official campaign and heavily involved in various think-tanks such as Legatum and other right wing political groupings).


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fair enough,

but Farage has spent half a lifetime in the E Parliament where this kinda stuff is frequently aired,

 

 

 

by people who know and who is using the correct lingo,apparently, he has succeeded in picking the essentials up

 

the other guys are driving their agendas without being in a scholarly environment re eu/eea/efta formalities

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, aright said:

 

You have lost sight of the fact that the Single Market is more than just a free trade zone. Members are treated as one block without borders where businesses can trade on a level playing field. services , goods, investment and people can move around freely.

One of the biggest reasons given for leaving the EU was freedom of movement issues. 

I regard that as a democratic mandate.

This is kind of a funny and clearly racist component of Brexit.

 

Yes, people can move freely on Single Market. That's one of the core principles of EU.

 

Now, let's see what happens in the future? Will UK really push visa requirement for EU? Which naturally will be applied to the other way as well. 

 

If there is not visa requirement, what stops EU citizens to travel to UK and start working in factory, construction, cleaning or corn field as tourist? 

 

Will there be quotas for EU people who wish to work in UK? This will increase both paperwork and officials working on those papers. UK will also need to take in more people from India and Pakistan as less EU workers are willing to enter to UK. We already know that UK people are 'too fine' to do the service sector work.

 

Then again, if you are going to import food from USA and let your own agriculture to die out, that's a fine solution for the agriculture workers problem. 

[Orac]

 
fair enough,
but Farage has spent half a lifetime in the E Parliament where this kinda stuff is frequently aired,
 
 
 
by people who know and who is using the correct lingo,apparently, he has succeeded in picking the essentials up
 
the other guys are driving their agendas without being in a scholarly environment re eu/eea/efta formalities
 

Not quite - Daniel Hannan became an MEP at the same time as Farage.


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[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

 

It means (i) the holding of the referendum was endorsed by the Tory manifesto for the 2015 General Election, and agreed to by the electorate when they elected the Tories at that election (ii) the Leave result was accepted by both parties in their 2017 General Election manifestos.

 

And yes, the Government committed to honouring the result by issuing a written promise to do so.

 

right, ta,

understand what you mean, I think

you are stretching things rather far me  thinks

 

there are other things on political agendas than eu/in-out

voting tory doesn't mean that you subscribe to the Brexit thinking

that is adding to the mess in my view

Edited September 30, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[melvinmelvin]

9 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

right, ta,

understand what you mean, I think

you are stretching things rather far me  thinks

 

there are other things on political agendas than eu/in-out

voting tory doesn't mean that you subscribe to the Brexit thinking

that is adding to the mess in my view

 

sorry, didn't mean that you add to the mess

but the fact that people vote Tory for totally different reasons than eu/in-out

makes things more difficult

 

[tebee]

41 minutes ago, aright said:

 

You have lost sight of the fact that the Single Market is more than just a free trade zone. Members are treated as one block without borders where businesses can trade on a level playing field. services , goods, investment and people can move around freely.

One of the biggest reasons given for leaving the EU was freedom of movement issues. 

I regard that as a democratic mandate.

 

 

 

But we didn't vote on that !

[melvinmelvin]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

But we didn't vote on that !

 

yes you did - you voted on leaving eu

 

hence,

 

down the drain goes:

sm

the 4 freedoms

eu foreign policy guidelines

trade limitations re 3rd party

remote controlled muslim influx

development aid to less fortunate eu member states

salary to Farage

eu controlled stipulations

etcetcetc

 

 

 

[tebee]

3 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

yes you did - you voted on leaving eu

 

hence,

 

down the drain goes:

sm

the 4 freedoms

eu foreign policy guidelines

trade limitations re 3rd party

remote controlled muslim influx

development aid to less fortunate eu member states

salary to Farage

eu controlled stipulations

etcetcetc

 

 

 

Yes we voted to leave the EU

 

But before the referendum there was suggested that a soft  brexit was a possibility  - staying in the single market, but leaving the EU -the Norway option .

 

So some leave voters did indeed vote for the hard Brexit we seem to be getting, but others voted for the soft Brexit which involved us staying in the SM

 

So there is no definitive democratic mandate to leave the SM 

[melvinmelvin]

6 minutes ago, tebee said:

Yes we voted to leave the EU

 

But before the referendum there was suggested that a soft  brexit was a possibility  - staying in the single market, but leaving the EU -the Norway option .

 

So some leave voters did indeed vote for the hard Brexit we seem to be getting, but others voted for the soft Brexit which involved us staying in the SM

 

So there is no definitive democratic mandate to leave the SM 

 

right,

 

in my view, the definite democratic mandate to leave sm is there, crystal clear

 

couple of points here, assuming what you say is reasonably correct;

so; a bunch of the UK politicians screwed the electorate then, tough luck, cannot amend that now, too late

just remember next time you participate in a GE

 

Norway option, it is there for UK (maybe, pending agreement  from EU and EFTA)

(my view is that UK would hate such a solution - but never mind)

but,

the UK government does not go for that solution, they have messed around year and a half now without pressing for what

you call Norway solution, its kinda gettin' a bit late now.

 

above in this thread

in 2 entries I have outlined a by the book way of Norway option - not quick

and described a kinda bold fasttrack way of doing it

 

but neither UK or EU talks about this

 

guess you are just foooked

 

 

[My Thai Life]

45 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

right, ta,

understand what you mean, I think

you are stretching things rather far me  thinks

I am stretching nothing at all.

The British electorate voted for the referendum presented in the Tory 20I5 GE manifesto.

Both parties campaigned on a leave ticket supporting the result of the referendum in the 2017 GE.

The Government made a written promise to enact the decision made by the Britis people in the referendum. The decision was to leave the EU.

 

These are historical facts.

[melvinmelvin]

1 minute ago, My Thai Life said:

I am stretching nothing at all.

The British electorate voted for the referendum presented in the Tory 20I5 GE manifesto.

Both parties campaigned on a leave ticket supporting the result of the referendum in the 2017 GE.

The Government made a written promise to enact the decision made by the Britis people in the referendum. The decision was to leave the EU.

 

These are historical facts.

 

I am not doubting that at all,

but the Tory program contained more than just the LEAVE bit

 

you have a lot of Tory voters and supporters out there who do not support Brexit they vote Tory for other reasons.

 

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

How many times do we need to listen to this? If a member leaves the EU then it leaves the SM. If that country wants access to the SM post EU membership, then it has to negotiate a way to continue access to it with the owner of the SM, which is the EU! The simplest way to do this is the Norway model (EEA).

"If a member leaves the EU then it leaves the SM."

You are making the assumption that the government is correct in its interpretation of the Article 127 requirement, that does not make it a fact.

"Why is the government so opposed to triggering Article 127? Quite probably it's because of that Gina Miller case. They know they would have to consult parliament before doing so. And if they did, they would discover that there is almost certainly no Commons majority for leaving the single market."

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/03/01/article-127-the-key-brexit-decision-with-a-one-month-deadlin

 

"The simplest way to do this is the Norway model (EEA)."

You have obviously chosen to forget how many times I have said this, after all you wouldn't want to be agreeing with anything I have posted, would you.

 

 

[aright]

"Because there is no democratic mandate to leave the SM." "But we didn't vote on that ! "

 

Yes we did! We voted to leave the EU and staying in the Single Market would mean we haven't left the EU for the reason I gave. 

Your comment doesn’t invite discussion. It is one sided, which ignores the democratic deficit EU governance entails and ignores the fact people voted for the UK to be self governing in all its aspects.

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, Srikcir said:

I was responding to the EU needing a time extension and the fact that it has already suggest a plan supports that the EU doesn't need a time extension. The UK was welcomed to renegotiate with such a plan but May chose not to. Furthermore, as the EU had previously suggested the Canadian plan, it has no need to continue to offer more plans.

It depends on what you mean by "need". The UK is the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world and imports a large amount of German engineering. Germany will not want to lose that. And the EU will not want to lose a "divorce settlement". So, yes, the EU is under no obligation to present a plan to countries which leave, but it clearly has a lot of self-interest in a positive result, which does require positive negotiation. One of the many problems is that some EU bureaucrats and politicians may wish to push for a punitive settlement, but major EU exporters to the UK certainly will not. There are rifts within the EU on this, not as many as in the UK I guess, but they are not reported - in the British press at least.

[My Thai Life]

7 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

am not doubting that at all,

but the Tory program contained more than just the LEAVE bit

 

you have a lot of Tory voters and supporters out there who do not support Brexit they vote Tory for other reasons.

Sure, and you have a lot of voters who support Labour and did vote Brexit. Corbyn himself is a natural leaver. The EU are more worried about him than any potential Tory leader.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Sure, and you have a lot of voters who support Labour and did vote Brexit. Corbyn himself is a natural leaver. The EU are more worried about him than any potential Tory leader.

I think at this point, the EU leaders are more worried how badly UK is going to perform after Brexit, than how badly EU countries are going to do. 

 

That's a worry, but still have not good enough reason to sell our principles. 

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Which is of course what Brexit is all about.

Quite right, if being in the EU was in fact a mistake. The evidence is far from conclusive and the verdict certainly not unanimous. The UK is facing life imprisonment but criminals get a better entitlement on the verdict.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, oilinki said:

I hope there will not be any extensions to the transition period. This show has gone too far, without real progress. UK will survive naturally. It will hurt quite a lot, but it will eventually flourish. 

 

That should teach England the real meaning of no deal brexit. It would also deter other, a lot poorer, EU members, like Italy or Poland to behave within the federation. 

 

It would teach the EU too!