UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Freedom of the press is here to stay, like it should be. 

 

I guess many continental Europeans were surprised how uncivilised UK's press and it's audience behaved during these couple of years of separation talks. UK audience might be accustomed to it, but I think it's not the case in most of the European countries. 

 

I'd say let the page three girls back on newspapers, to let UK folks to feel a bit of love again, instead of this frustrated anger we see today. ????

Nice deflection, but Juncker the most powerfull man in Europe is a total disgrace, is his conduct not accountable. Why do you Europhiles put up with it, doesn't he embarrass you, it appears that no-one is interested in his behaviour.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

yeah,

a bit like your fellow countryman Tankero

 

probably the man, together with Kekkonen, that laid the foundation for making it at all possible for Finland

to move towards EU, when the time came (after USSR breakdown)

 

Tankero means in Finnish, a person who is has some democratic or corporate power and is a full drunk. At least that is my definition of it.

 

Story time. Once upon a time, there was a international conference where country codes for worldwide telephone systems were agreed. Finland sent one Tankero to the conference. 

 

While Sweden, Norway and Denmark ended up getting a two digit code +45, +46 and +47, Finland got +358. Why?

 

Well, the story goes that Finnish representative, Tankero, took his work trip on more of a fun trip way. He bought all the tax-free alcohol he could get.. drunk all, and slept through the conference. That's why we have that three digit country code. 

 

That's a rumour, which I have tried to get confirmation, but have not got it. Funny story nevertheless ????

 

Kekkonen used to be our strong president. Lots of good, lots of less good traits. That's the past.

 

Currently we have excellent president in Finland. I share this, because this happened just few hours ago.

 

In the photo you can see cray haired man with glasses sitting on stairs. That's our current president and all around good guy. Tough sometimes, but always fair. That's the way we like them politicians.

 

He is listening a book fair presentation about equality. He sat on the stairs because all the seats were already taken. Someone who leads by example and someone who make us feel good and proud of.  

 

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by Guest
Typos etc.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, vogie said:

Nice deflection, but Juncker the most powerfull man in Europe is a total disgrace, is his conduct not accountable. Why do you Europhiles put up with it, doesn't he embarrass you, it appears that no-one is interested in his behaviour.

Is he really? I thought Tusk and Macron were the most powerful men in Europe. While Merkel is the most powerful person in Europe? 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

When you accuse someone of something, it's up to you to provide evidence for your accusations. What if someone asked you to providing some evidence that you're not a kiddy fiddler? 

So, we get down to cheap little comments like this, do we? Why use such an analogy as the above? Very odd and a bit low if you ask me.

 

Perhaps I should expect it from you, I guess. Very abstract, borderline offensive and totally off topic once again.

 

You can't argue your side effectively, that was shown earlier in previous pages when I dismissed your feeble arguments and that clearly stings.

 

But c'mon, this is almost as weak and nebulous as your dire series of replies about Schengen visas and other irrelevant nonsense that was unrelated to my points that you were poorly attempting to counter. I then provided some evidence to support my claim in the form of an article featuring actual quotes about current policy - from a pro EU politician, which underscored the veracity of my statements and you never came back to me about it ...of course.

 

All I'll say now is - why not just stay out of the debate altogether if you have nothing constructive to add and do us all a favour, eh? Rather than chipping in intermittently with your total drivel, perhaps you should refrain from posting and embarrassing yourself further? ????

 

Because here's the difference...I have backed up my 'accusations' time and again with facts consisting of quotations, statistics and other information from a range of reliable sources. Adding in my own opinions and personal experiences. A debate entails one person(s) making a point or 'accusation' as you love to term it, reinforcing it with fact and then the other person(s) attempts to counter that point. All I'm asking is that there is some debate from the opposite side. There have been many Eurosceptics on this thread that have consistently engaged in debate, but the same can't be said of the opposite side, from what I have seen.

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

2 hours ago, JAG said:

Yes, and what bothers (no surprises and saddens me) is that so often these cries come from citizens of the UK! It's almost as if the unfettered ability to guzzle St Ager bleu, drink cheap Bordeaux and access ones holiday cottage in the Dordogne without having to show a passport outweighs (I was going to say "trumps" but that has unfortunate connotations these days!) any consideration about the medium and long-term future of the country.

 

What really annoys (grips my sh*t in the vernacular) is the accusation that anyone who does not hold the remain camp's views is ignorant, ill-educated, stupid, old and holds extreme right-wing views - I think that I am quite well educated, reasonably intelligent ( I know lots of long words like wheelbarrow and marmalade) and hold fairly liberal conservative views (note the use of the lower case). I will admit to being a little bit oldish...

 

I think that the result of the referendum has stirred up such bitterness because it has overturned a rather cosy long-standing consensus amongst the political and politicised classes, perhaps (obviously) not one which was shared by the majority.

 

SPOT ON! 

 

 

[vogie]

10 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Is he really? I thought Tusk and Macron were the most powerful men in Europe. While Merkel is the most powerful person in Europe? 

So Juncker being president of the EU has less influence than Merkel and Macron, isn't that what the Brexiteers have been saying from day one?

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 hour ago, oilinki said:

I can't talk for remainers, but my observation has been that they have been really terrified where UK is heading towards. When people are afraid, people react to it in different ways. Some go in to their cocoons, some fight back as much as they can to protect what they see as home and value a lot. 

 

What I have seen in UK mainstream media, has been heavily biased towards UK's point of view. The rest of the EU citizens thinks quite differently about EU than what average UK person thinks.

You ain't been watching / reading the same MSM is all I can say pal.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

So Juncker being president of the EU has less influence than Merkel and Macron, isn't that what the Brexiteers have been saying from day one?

I don't know. I know that the power is within member countries in EU.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

You ain't been watching / reading the same MSM is all I can say pal.

I think we have been watching the same media. Our viewpoints are different, which affects how we see the news. 

[melvinmelvin]

10 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Tankero means in Finnish, a person who is has some democratic power and is a full drunk. 

 

Story time. Once upon a time, there was a international conference where country codes for worldwide telephone systems were agrees. Finland sent one Tankero to the conference. 

 

While Sweden, Norway and Denmark ended up getting a two number code +45, +46 and +47, Finland got +357. Why? Well, the story goes that Finnish representative, Tankero, took his work trip on more of a fun trip way. He bought all the tax-free alcohol he could get.. and slept through the conference. That's why we still have that three letter country code. 

 

That's a rumour, which I have tried to get confirmation, but have not got it. Funny story nevertheless ????

 

Kekkonen used to be our strong president. Lots of good, lots of less good traits. That's the past.

 

Currently we have excellent president in Finland. I share this, because this happened just few hours ago.

 

In the photo you can see cray haired man with glasses sitting on stairs. That's our current president and all around good guy. Tough sometimes, but always fair. That's the way we like them politicians.

 

He is listening a book fair presentation about equality. He sat on the stairs because all the seats were already taken. Someone who leads by example and someone who make us feel good and proud of.  

 

 

 

16

 

re telephone numbers, the only people in Finland that might be of help to verify or the opposite you may find in Telehallintokeskus - at least they have access to the minutes of such historic conferences

 

when I said Tankero I referred to Karjalainen, (the never sober minister of foreign affairs)

in my view Karjalainen and Kekkonen laid the foundation for moving Finland towards EU,

they both had a good hand with sorting things out with USSR.  (Karjalainen probably just drank the Russians under the table)

 

There are still many Tankero (Karjalainen) jokes circulating.  

my fav joke:

 

Karjalainen back to Vantaa (Helsinki Airport) after meeting abroad.

Gets into a taxi in order to go home.

Taxi driver turns around and says; Have you heard the newest Tankero joke?

Karjalainen says: I am Karjalainen.

Taxi driver: Wow, OK, then I will tell the joke very very slowly.

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

22 minutes ago, vogie said:

So Juncker being president of the EU has less influence than Merkel and Macron, isn't that what the Brexiteers have been saying from day one?

 

if you talk about the commission, the power is with the membership - not with the moderator

 

[mommysboy]

I don't know about the veracity of this poll, yet it's the sort of thing that has been lacking throughout.  It confirms much of what I suspected.  Note, in particular, the measly support for a no deal type Brexit!  Quite frankly, the notion that the electorate, and even leavers, voted for hard Brexit is completely wrong; unquestionably.

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-negotiations-no-deal-full-access-single-market-polling-theresa-may-a8571846.html

[damascase]

7 hours ago, mommysboy said:

I don't know about the veracity of this poll, yet it's the sort of thing that has been lacking throughout.  It confirms much of what I suspected.  Note, in particular, the measly support for a no deal type Brexit!  Quite frankly, the notion that the electorate, and even leavers, voted for hard Brexit is completely wrong; unquestionably.

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-negotiations-no-deal-full-access-single-market-polling-theresa-may-a8571846.html

Interesting, but useless questions posed, as full access to the Single Market is NOT a realistic option. Furthermore, where the EEA-type relation is mentioned one would still have ‘hard borders’ because there is truly free circulation of goods ONLY within the Customs Union, not within the EEA. So as far as Customs procedures/formalities are concerned there isn’t any difference between an EEA-type deal and a Canada-style agreement.

Edited October 7, 2018 by damascase

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

 

A more pressing matter is the GFA/Irish border. Since the UK voted to leave they should also try to come up with a solution. It seems as if they didn't realize the problem until after the Brexit vote. Some Brexiteers at this forum claimed it was a problem for the EU. If that isn't arrogance than what is?

 

The UK government were warned by Amnesty International regarding the potential problems with the Belfast Agreement at the time the referendum bill was being discussed.

The arrogant DC ignored the warnings, probably on the basis that he thought he knew the outcome.

There were also warnings issued over plans for the UK to leave the ECHR, which were obviously noted as that has now been shelved.

The UK signed up to the EU treaties and the Belfast Agreement but for some reason they seem to think that they can just ignore what they signed up to.

[sandyf]

11 hours ago, JAG said:

It's the very devil isn't it - all those glasses of sciatica medicine!

 

Still never mind, as the Guardian reported today, if he gets his way it will never be mentioned again - apparently suggesting that the EU's leader is a pisshead infringes his human rights!

If you want to hang someone out to dry then why not look closer to home, well that's if you could.

 

The Speaker has invoked a loophole in the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act, to claim that information requested by The Press Association about drinking among MPs and peers must be kept secret.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/01/01/westminster-mps-alcohol-drinking-problems_n_8902832.html

[sandyf]

12 hours ago, billd766 said:

I found this on another website about travel between the UK, Eire and the EU.

 

How accurate it is I have no idea but it seems to be sponsored and run by the Eire government.

 

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/freedom_of_movement_within_the_eu/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html

 

Brexit

The UK’s withdrawal from the European Union (EU) will not affect the rights of Irish citizens and UK citizens within the Common Travel Area. The right to live, work and access public services in the Common Travel Area will be protected, regardless of the outcome of the Brexit negotiations.

 

You can read more about the UK leaving the EU in our Guide to Brexit.

 

http://www.citizensinformationboard.ie/en/

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't one of the big issues for leaving was to close the UK borders, but there is now some desperation to keep the EU/UK border in Ireland open. Every possibility it will become a major route for trafficking and they will end up with checks anyway. The EU have already expressed concern over fraudulent goods.

A few years back a friend of mine was stopped leaving the RoI and his Thai wife was declared illegal immigrant, received a lifetime ban from entering the RoI.

The reality is that an open border can only successfully exist when the regulations on each side of the border are the same.

[My Thai Life]

7 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't one of the big issues for leaving was to close the UK borders, but there is now some desperation to keep the EU/UK border in Ireland open. Every possibility it will become a major route for trafficking and they will end up with checks anyway. The EU have already expressed concern over fraudulent goods.

A few years back a friend of mine was stopped leaving the RoI and his Thai wife was declared illegal immigrant, received a lifetime ban from entering the RoI.

The reality is that an open border can only successfully exist when the regulations on each side of the border are the same.

> I believe the issue was control of borders, rather than closing borders.

> Trafficking? Ireland is not in Schengen, but it is in the Common Travel Area with the UK, and this situation is unlikely to change. Consequently, people trafficking and illegal immigration over the border will be no more an issue than it is now.

> The NI/Ireland border has a comparatively low volume of trade, and the trade is much more homogenous than other UK-EU trade - in other words it is much moe manageable than other UK-EU trade borders. There are already cross border differences and checks, for example VAT and animal checks; these can be built upon to create an invisible border after the UK exits. Various solutions have been put forward to maintain an invisible border. The Irish border "issue" is a good example of the EU's politicking and cherry-picking.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

The NI/Ireland border has a comparatively low volume of trade, and the trade is much more homogenous than other UK-EU trade - in other words it is much moe manageable than other UK-EU trade borders. There are already cross border differences and checks, for example VAT and animal checks; these can be built upon to create an invisible border after the UK exits. Various solutions have been put forward to maintain an invisible border. The Irish border "issue" is a good example of the EU's politicking and cherry-picking.

Brexiteers didn't even consider Northern Ireland border issues, when they campaigned for Brexit. This "You don't matter to us" is causing political strir in Northern Ireland. 

 

This means that Sinn Fein is coming back. 

[melvinmelvin]

what is Ireland's stance on this "open" border, apart from the common travel area agreement,

is this border of importance to Ireland or not?

 

and,

think I have seen several times that a sea border is not acceptable.

well, how can you not have a sea border between Ireland and UK  after brexit?

 

Edited October 7, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[damascase]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

The Irish border "issue" is a good example of the EU's politicking and cherry-picking.

Another fine example of blaming the EU for something that is the responsibility of the UK and the result of the complete absence of any forward thinking.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, oilinki said:

Brexiteers didn't even consider Northern Ireland border issues, when they campaigned for Brexit. This "You don't matter to us" is causing political strir in Northern Ireland. 

 

This means that Sinn Fein is coming back. 

 

Sinn Fein never went away but merged into the quieter background but it is still active.

[melvinmelvin]

re borders,

also wonder; there are today a number of fairly soft borders to EU,

are they all different or smth to learn from the other borders that could be used Ireland/NI

 

off the top of my head, here are some;

 

Aaland - Finland

some of the islands in the Channel - France/UK

Gibraltar - Spain (today - Schengen border)

Holy See/Vatican - Italy

San Marino - Italy

Andorra - Spain

Monaco - France

 

[My Thai Life]

11 minutes ago, damascase said:

Another fine example of blaming the EU for something that is the responsibility of the UK and the result of the complete absence of any forward thinking.

I'm not blaming the EU for the Irish border. I'm simply pointing out that the EU have attempted to made a political mountain out of a situation that has known solutions. 

 

It's obviously not the sole responsibility of the UK, as there are 3 parties involved. Or rather 2 - the UK and Ireland.

 

The EU have used the NI border as a political football, by (1) trying to set it in stone before moving on to trade negotiations (2)  trying to partition the UK.

 

As far as "forward thinking" is concerned, numerous solutions have been proposed - the most famous of which being Chequers, others from the ERG, and at least one other that I quoted from about a month ago based on the Norway-Sweden border. Just because you are unaware of them doesn't mean they don't exist.

[My Thai Life]

A few choice snippets about ”Italy’s defiant coalition warns of financial ‘Armageddon’ if Brussels picks a budget fight”

 

I’ve quoted more than usual because it’s behind a paywall.

 

“Italy’s insurgent coalition has warned of a financial cataclysm of global proportions if the eurozone authorities reject the country’s budget plans and ratchet up economic stress as a tool of pressure."

 

 

“Mr Juncker said this week that if Italy was granted a free pass on the revamped (and contractionary) Stability Pact, it “would mean the end of the euro, so you have to be very strict”.”

“Luigi di Maio has come close to accusing France and Germany of conspiring to bring about regime change.”

 

“If anybody in Brussels is stupid enough to think they can use the ‘Greek textbook’ against us, they will find that the crisis is not Greece squared, but Greece cubed,” said Claudio Borghi, economics chief for the Lega party and chairman of the budget committee in the lower house of parliament."

 

“In Greece, the EU managed to turn what started as small problem into disaster through their own mismanagement, but this would be a thousand times worse. It would be Armageddon,” “

““This is complete madness,” said Mr Borghi. “They can’t do it unless they send in the army and you can’t do this to a lawful government with a majority in parliament that is doing nothing out of the normal. If they try, there will be a real revolution.”

 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/10/05/italys-defiant-coalition-warns-financial-armageddon-brussels/

 

 

[damascase]

20 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

re borders,

also wonder; there are today a number of fairly soft borders to EU,

are they all different or smth to learn from the other borders that could be used Ireland/NI

 

off the top of my head, here are some;

 

Aaland - Finland

some of the islands in the Channel - France/UK

Gibraltar - Spain (today - Schengen border)

Holy See/Vatican - Italy

San Marino - Italy

Andorra - Spain

Monaco - France

 

Aaland is a Finnish province with some independency, Monaco is part of the EU Customs Union, San Marino and Andorra have a Customs Union agreement with the EU, the Channel Islands - and the Isle of Man - are not part of the EU but are included in the Customs Union. Gibraltar is a different matter, but I can’t think of any significant trade across the border with Spain.

[JAG]

2 hours ago, oilinki said:

Brexiteers didn't even consider Northern Ireland border issues, when they campaigned for Brexit. This "You don't matter to us" is causing political strir in Northern Ireland. 

 

This means that Sinn Fein is coming back. 

Well we have it on good authority - from the man who runs Sinn Fein/IRA - that "they never went away you know".

Edited October 7, 2018 by JAG

[melvinmelvin]

29 minutes ago, damascase said:

Aaland is a Finnish province with some independency, Monaco is part of the EU Customs Union, San Marino and Andorra have a Customs Union agreement with the EU, the Channel Islands - and the Isle of Man - are not part of the EU but are included in the Customs Union. Gibraltar is a different matter, but I can’t think of any significant trade across the border with Spain.

 

Aaland is hardly in the EU I think. Since Finland became member of EU the Sweden-Finland ferries make

a short stop in Aaland. Then they have been abroad and the pax can buy tax free booze and fags.

 

re Algeciras,

I gather there are enormous amounts of money crossing the border due to all the electronic gambling run from the Cliff.

 

some other pretty soft borders I guess,

in southern Switzerland, the Med side of the Alps,

there are a number of CH cities/villages/settlements that can only be reached from Italy

 

[damascase]

43 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

Aaland is hardly in the EU I think. Since Finland became member of EU the Sweden-Finland ferries make

a short stop in Aaland. Then they have been abroad and the pax can buy tax free booze and fags.

 

Aaland has a special status in the EU: it is exempted from the indirect taxation regime and that is the reason why you can buy tax free items there. But it IS part of the EU.

Edited October 7, 2018 by damascase
Typo

[melvinmelvin]

2 minutes ago, damascase said:

Aaland has a special status in the EU: it is exempted from the indirect taxation regime and that is the reason why you can buy tax free items in the EU. But it is part of the EU.

right, ta

 

same goes for some of these small islands off Germany in the North Sea then?

tax free areas - splendid for week end piss ups

and excellent for pleasure crafts going to Norway

 

 

seems to me that EU has amassed an awful lot of incongruent arrangements re borders and tax arrangements over the years

 

so another hack re NI should maybe not be a big thing

 

[Kieran00001]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

what is Ireland's stance on this "open" border, apart from the common travel area agreement,

is this border of importance to Ireland or not?

 

and,

think I have seen several times that a sea border is not acceptable.

well, how can you not have a sea border between Ireland and UK  after brexit?

 

 

A sea border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK is what they are talking about, something that has already been rejected by the EU, so that will not happen, they will not allow the UK to have some access to the common area in Northern Ireland and not have access to the same for the rest of the UK, its all or nothing with them.

 

And the DUP have stated that a deal that closes the border will result in them pulling out of the coalition and shutting down government, May's only option is to keep the border open, something that the EU also will not allow unless we also agree to the four freedoms, which were the reason people voted to leave.

 

Best chance now is to dissolve parliament, have a GE and then new government can try to negotiate some more time with the EU, which would probably come with the clause that we have to hold a second referendum.