UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Patriot1066]

5 hours ago, sandyf said:

Do I take it that if the same decision is left to parliament it is still a losers vote.

Just to be clear I do not support referendums(government opinion polls) just trying to highlight the nonsensical comment.

 

That being said you are probably right, brexit has made "the people" a loser, so much for the "will".

No Brexit is liberation!

 

The people’s sorry millionaire vote is a sideshow ????

[Patriot1066]

7 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Remember, when the left can’t address the issue, they have attack you personally. If you don’t embrace open boarders and globalism, you’re a nazi.

 

I hear his mum saw it and sent him to bed early.

 

They certainally dint like facts particularly math facts like percentages really seem to cause them real issues. Like above 50% wins.

 

So simple yet so hard to understand by some.

[Patriot1066]

7 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

I'm really not sure that you actually read the articles you link to. The quote you gave goes no further than the viewable portion this side of the the paywall. Had you read the article you would know it goes on to say:

 

"A Downing Street spokesman said last night: “The prime minister’s letter sets out her commitment, which she has been absolutely clear about on any number of occasions, to never accepting any circumstances in which the UK is divided into two customs territories. The government will not agree anything that brings about a hard border on the island of Ireland.”"

 

In addition to which, the title is misleading anyway,  No deal usually means no withdrawal agreement. This no deal seems to mean if, after the withdrawal agreement is signed and during the transition, the EU and UK fail to come to a future relationship agreement. It doesn't appear to touch the no withdrawal agreement type no deal.

 

 

Reply

Yes the remain camp do try to be selective in what they have discussed.

 

like massive EU debt, uncontrolled budget no transparency True democracy in action.

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Everyone to their own.

 

I seriously dislike the tories and am a 'natural' Labour/left supporter - but for a few decades the Labour party has been a carbon copy of the Tory party - so they also lost my vote.

 

The definition of 'left wing' depends on the bias of the person  involved.  i.e. I'm definitely a 'lefty', and so understand why so many voted to leave in the referendum.  I also think many EU countries have a better 'social' policy.

 

But I also think some of the ideas/policies promoted by a tiny minority of the left wing/liberal elite have been taken too far.  e.g. Political correctness used to be simple, obvious and correct (IMO), but the definition has changed beyond recognition to the extent that even those of us who originally supported PC are left wondering 'what the hell??'!

Hmm

 

See we can all agree on some things????

[tebee]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/leave-supporting-llanelli-left-reeling-as-manufacturing-industry-moves-out-due-to-brexit/08/11/amp/?fbclid=IwAR2KWMAVOKDaR4ztOLRQEzadTsyfsueYSXoiT0gb8PXwmoRkuFL4yI4OJ6U&__twitter_impression=true

 

[vogie]

44 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Only under a feasible scenario and certainly not at any cost. Something the English seem to have problem comprehending, a percentage of the vote was against Alex Salmond's plan not against independence.

It is a sad fact of life that the Irish, Welsh and Scots are only British when it suits the English.

In all honesty I take no notice of your posts, you dislike the English so much it is almost impossible for you to be impartial, balanced or even fair. This Englishman has no problem comprehending the fact that you are using this topic as a platform for your desire to leave the Union.

Your last sentence says it all, I have served with the Scots, Welsh and Irish (as I'm sure as you have, substitute Scots for English) and I have nothing but total respect for all our brothers. But you have laid your cards on the table and really told us what you think of the English. I still really like the Scots, but Scottish Nationalist, not my cup of tea I'm afraid.

You are obviously quite intelligent, but so biased I'm afraid. Anyway that is only my opinion, but I don't think I am far out.

[Patriot1066]

18 minutes ago, vogie said:

In all honesty I take no notice of your posts, you dislike the English so much it is almost impossible for you to be impartial, balanced or even fair. This Englishman has no problem comprehending the fact that you are using this topic as a platform for your desire to leave the Union.

Your last sentence says it all, I have served with the Scots, Welsh and Irish (as I'm sure as you have, substitute Scots for English) and I have nothing but total respect for all our brothers. But you have laid your cards on the table and really told us what you think of the English. I still really like the Scots, but Scottish Nationalist, not my cup of tea I'm afraid.

You are obviously quite intelligent, but so biased I'm afraid. Anyway that is only my opinion, but I don't think I am far out.

Hopefully we will get a vote on Scotland as well?

[nontabury]

8 hours ago, tebee said:

A Brussels plan to put a customs border in the Irish Sea if there is no Brexit agreement will be included in a divorce deal, a leaked letter from Theresa May suggests.

 

The prime minister was accused last night of breaking her promise to the Democratic Unionist Party that she would never sign up to a deal that could allow Northern Ireland to be divided from the rest of the United Kingdom.

 

The European plan, known as the “backstop to the backstop”, would leave Northern Ireland tied to the single market and customs union if Brexit talks collapse

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/no-deal-plan-will-include-new-border-in-irish-sea-3qqc908gh

 

 

Let’s  gets this right. The E.U have continually stated that it’s impossible to make arrangements regarding the Nth Ireland boarder. But now they have changed their tune, saying IT IS after all possible, however only if the U.K agrees to allow the E.U fishing fleet access to British waters.

So it would seem to me they want/ need our money in one shape or form.

 

Why or why cannot remoaners,such as yourself accept the fact that the E.U. Is not of benefit to the U.K. Could it possible be because you are very selfish living in France,and for you,it’s all about YOU.

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Everyone to their own.

 

I seriously dislike the tories and am a 'natural' Labour/left supporter - but for a few decades the Labour party has been a carbon copy of the Tory party - so they also lost my vote.

 

The definition of 'left wing' depends on the bias of the person  involved.  i.e. I'm definitely a 'lefty', and so understand why so many voted to leave in the referendum.  I also think many EU countries have a better 'social' policy.

 

But I also think some of the ideas/policies promoted by a tiny minority of the left wing/liberal elite have been taken too far.  e.g. Political correctness used to be simple, obvious and correct (IMO), but the definition has changed beyond recognition to the extent that even those of us who originally supported PC are left wondering 'what the hell??'!

When I left university I was certainly left wing in my political views. Just like the vast majority of students then and now.  I think it has a lot to do with kicking back at the establishment.  But we had all been inside our student bubble protected from the real world and blissfully unaware of what was in store for us all.

 

Some of us followed an academic path, some into the arts and some were thrown into the world of real work, which came as quite a shock to the system.  I think it is fair to say that following an academic career or immersing yourself in the arts, you were far more likely to continue with your left wing mindset but in a very different way to people working on the shop floor.  Both can be labelled as "left wing" but as different as chalk and cheese.

 

Those who went into the world of business, were to a great extent, steered towards the Capitalist establishment, Tory led and unashamedly right wing.  My left wing views were quickly eroded but I never felt comfortable with the attitude and mindset of the right.  It took quite a while for me to realise that I didn't have to "pick a side" at all. 

 

That is why it irritates me enormously when people feel the need to put others in one box or another.  We are all capable of thinking outside of the box and going with what we feel is right at the time.  I still have many of the left wing views I had in Uni but would never vote Labour with the shower that are in charge now.  Likewise I couldn't vote Conservative as I wouldn't put my name to the party that virtually destroyed the country I live in.

 

When it comes to Brexit you can find left and right leaners picking different sides.  It all depends on individual choices and has nothing to do with political positioning.  

[BwindiBoy]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Salaries/wages have been decreasing since somewhere around 1990?

 

The year is just a guess on my part, but when I first started working around 1975 it used to be mostly middle-aged/older men in reasonably paid positions - and they were able to support their families on their salary alone.

 

Re-structuring resulted in their salaries remaining static (as their jobs were down-graded, but their salary protected for a few years) - whilst younger, cheaper staff with zero experience were recruited to take their place....  Hence the decline in 'service' provided by companies over the last few decades.... 

 

Nowadays, those doing the same job are paid far less - which is why most of the current generation of 'ordinary' office staff are no longer able to support a family on their own, and so both husband and wife need to work.  The definition of 'reasonably paid' has changed.

 

Edit - This appears off topic, but I've no doubt that this is partly due to company greed, and also partly due to the easy availability of cheap labour from eu countries.  After all, when it's so easy to obtain cheap labour, it's easy to increase the number of those paid the minimum possible - and then decrease the salaries of those above as 'job descriptions' are re-classified to the lowest possible scale.  Which then results in most 'job descriptions' being downgraded to a lesser scale and salary....

I agree, although I would suggest it was around the turn of the century when salaries stagnated. Definitely company greed plays a big part, and the choice to put share holders first - I remember one year our company had a pay freeze, whilst increasing dividends by 9%.

Edited November 9, 2018 by BwindiBoy

[nauseus]

30 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Let’s  gets this right. The E.U have continually stated that it’s impossible to make arrangements regarding the Nth Ireland boarder. But now they have changed their tune, saying IT IS after all possible, however only if the U.K agrees to allow the E.U fishing fleet access to British waters.

So it would seem to me they want/ need our money in one shape or form.

 

Why or why cannot remoaners,such as yourself accept the fact that the E.U. Is not of benefit to the U.K. Could it possible be because you are very selfish living in France,and for you,it’s all about YOU.

 

[Patriot1066]

5 hours ago, billd766 said:

So what?

 

At least Brexiteers actually post links.

 

Remainers publish links from the Independent and the Guardian (at least if they bother to post links).

Yes the Guardian the supporter of the Far Left, and the not so independent Independent.

[Patriot1066]

49 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Let’s  gets this right. The E.U have continually stated that it’s impossible to make arrangements regarding the Nth Ireland boarder. But now they have changed their tune, saying IT IS after all possible, however only if the U.K agrees to allow the E.U fishing fleet access to British waters.

So it would seem to me they want/ need our money in one shape or form.

 

Why or why cannot remoaners,such as yourself accept the fact that the E.U. Is not of benefit to the U.K. Could it possible be because you are very selfish living in France,and for you,it’s all about YOU.

Yes but if they get no deal what will they do about the border as are committed not to have one in any case.

 

The EU will always be down to money.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-letter-irish-sea-border-backstop-northern-ireland-customs-dup-a8625206.html

 

The border is one of the few ways they could be seen to take a moral high ground rather than their money grabbing socialist selves.

 

The border could also be solved by money in fish or cash absolute Hypocrites

[Patriot1066]

22 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

No its not about him now, he will have to come back to the UK according to the doom laden remainiac  Mantra, I feel sorry for him living in France and being deported back to the UK after Brexit

 

--- locusts will arrive, time will stop, the poles will reverse, the sun will go out, you know common and garden remoaner stuff.

[Patriot1066]

21 hours ago, nontabury said:

I just wonder why I keep noticing a very high % of E.U. Citizens on these threads, who seem to think we should remain in this so called Union.

Could it possible be down to our willingness to make charitable contributions to this organisation?

 

 

They will be upset this morning when they see our economy is one of the fastest growing in Europe see the latest figures here

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46151172

 

Brexit equals only good news

[Patriot1066]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/leave-supporting-llanelli-left-reeling-as-manufacturing-industry-moves-out-due-to-brexit/08/11/amp/?fbclid=IwAR2KWMAVOKDaR4ztOLRQEzadTsyfsueYSXoiT0gb8PXwmoRkuFL4yI4OJ6U&__twitter_impression=true

 

This is by the Remain supporting BBC it was hidden away behind a story on a migrant who was helping a church and by a report on how bad Brexit was so not on the Front page!  I wonder Why>

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46151172

 

This would make our annual growth at 2.4% the fastest in Europe and Tebee put the graph up showing we would be the slowest behind all other nations. (Graph by the EU)

 

Well done Brexeteers!!!!!

[welovesundaysatspace]

57 minutes ago, Patriot1066 said:

They will be upset this morning when they see our economy is one of the fastest growing in Europe see the latest figures here

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46151172

 

Brexit equals only good news

Do you actually read what you post, or do you just hope people don’t check and find out? Or do you just do it like your fat orange idol in the US and completely ignore the truth? 

 

From the article you linked (annotations by me):

[welovesundaysatspace]

57 minutes ago, Patriot1066 said:

They will be upset this morning when they see our economy is one of the fastest growing in Europe see the latest figures here

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46151172

 

Brexit equals only good news

Do you actually read what you post, or do you just hope people don’t check and find out? Or do you just do it like your fat orange idol in the US and completely ignore the truth? 

 

From the article you linked (annotations by me):

[Patriot1066]

51 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Do you actually read what you post, or do you just hope people don’t check and find out? Or do you just do it like your fat orange idol in the US and completely ignore the truth?

 

From the article you linked (annotations by me):

Sir your arrow is misleading is that the arrow after we leave?

 

Well done for your support and highlighting how the economy will be so good after Brexit!

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, nontabury said:

Let’s  gets this right. The E.U have continually stated that it’s impossible to make arrangements regarding the Nth Ireland boarder. But now they have changed their tune, saying IT IS after all possible, however only if the U.K agrees to allow the E.U fishing fleet access to British waters.

So it would seem to me they want/ need our money in one shape or form.

 

Why or why cannot remoaners,such as yourself accept the fact that the E.U. Is not of benefit to the U.K. Could it possible be because you are very selfish living in France,and for you,it’s all about YOU.

Don't bring shellfish up again! You'll start a naval battle!

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, dunroaming said:

When I left university I was certainly left wing in my political views. Just like the vast majority of students then and now.  I think it has a lot to do with kicking back at the establishment.  But we had all been inside our student bubble protected from the real world and blissfully unaware of what was in store for us all.

 

Some of us followed an academic path, some into the arts and some were thrown into the world of real work, which came as quite a shock to the system.  I think it is fair to say that following an academic career or immersing yourself in the arts, you were far more likely to continue with your left wing mindset but in a very different way to people working on the shop floor.  Both can be labelled as "left wing" but as different as chalk and cheese.

 

Those who went into the world of business, were to a great extent, steered towards the Capitalist establishment, Tory led and unashamedly right wing.  My left wing views were quickly eroded but I never felt comfortable with the attitude and mindset of the right.  It took quite a while for me to realise that I didn't have to "pick a side" at all. 

 

That is why it irritates me enormously when people feel the need to put others in one box or another.  We are all capable of thinking outside of the box and going with what we feel is right at the time.  I still have many of the left wing views I had in Uni but would never vote Labour with the shower that are in charge now.  Likewise I couldn't vote Conservative as I wouldn't put my name to the party that virtually destroyed the country I live in.

 

When it comes to Brexit you can find left and right leaners picking different sides.  It all depends on individual choices and has nothing to do with political positioning.  

Yes indeed. Well said!

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

No Brexit is liberation!

 

The people’s sorry millionaire vote is a sideshow ????

You make me laugh.

 

Out of embarrassment.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, BwindiBoy said:

I agree, although I would suggest it was around the turn of the century when salaries stagnated. Definitely company greed plays a big part, and the choice to put share holders first - I remember one year our company had a pay freeze, whilst increasing dividends by 9%.

Both of you are correct in concept at least. Wage stagnation only really kicked in about 10 years ago.

 

Wealth has swung much to far toward capital and away from Labour. New ideas are required before robotics and AI really kick in. A guaranteed income for all and a 4 day week are good ideas.

 

Finally, the blind pursuit of "shareholder value" has hollowed out many U.K. Companies. German style longtermism is far more preferable.

 

What is the point of slashing corporation tax? It should be about 30% IMO. Right now we have a race to the bottom.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

Yes the Guardian the supporter of the Far Left, and the not so independent Independent.

Are you confusing independent with neutral? The BBC is legally bound to be neutral (but frequently misunderstand that they must quote idiots when they have broadcast a world expert) 

 

The press are not obliged to be neutral

 

I find the independent, the economist and the BBC to be good sources. But then I am biased. As is everyone.

[mogandave]

Both of you are correct in concept at least. Wage stagnation only really kicked in about 10 years ago.

 

Wealth has swung much to far toward capital and away from Labour. New ideas are required before robotics and AI really kick in. A guaranteed income for all and a 4 day week are good ideas.

 

Finally, the blind pursuit of "shareholder value" has hollowed out many U.K. Companies. German style longtermism is far more preferable.

 

What is the point of slashing corporation tax? It should be about 30% IMO. Right now we have a race to the bottom.

 

Does not the consumer not ultimately pay the corporate tax?

 

Will not raising the rate incentivize corporations to relocate? The company I work for relocated to Cork a couple years ago for that very reason.

 

I would rather have a corporation paying no taxes, provide thousands of good paying jobs (that all pay taxes) than raise their taxes and run them out of the country.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

No Brexit is liberation!

 

The people’s sorry millionaire vote is a sideshow ????

Indeed No Brexit aka cancellation of brexit is liberation from the people like Mogg. 

 

In the larger entity of EU, folks like Mogg can't move as freely as they want to.

The folks like Mogg love money. 

 

The folks like Mogg are also the champions of the Brexit vote and therefore the champions of the common people, they represent. Right.. 

 

Follow the money is an old phrase, yet it seems to work so well even today.

 

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

Yes but if they get no deal what will they do about the border as are committed not to have one in any case.

 

The EU will always be down to money.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-letter-irish-sea-border-backstop-northern-ireland-customs-dup-a8625206.html

 

The border is one of the few ways they could be seen to take a moral high ground rather than their money grabbing socialist selves.

 

The border could also be solved by money in fish or cash absolute Hypocrites

We, quite correctly, signed up to no hard border. Do you understand that and the reasons why?

 

The EU are stating correctly that IF there is no deal, they want to ensure that there will be no hard border by having a back stop.

 

The obvious backstop is for the U.K. to remain in the CU.

 

Please confirm, in triplicate, that you understand these issues. Then, go ahead and give us your pet solution.

[Grouse]

9 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Does not the consumer not ultimately pay the corporate tax?

Will not raising the rate incentivize corporations to relocate? The com

 

As you will know, much of corporate law is built around the concept that a company is a legal entity in much the same way as an individual. Hence the strict regulations on directors. I see no reason why a corporation, a company limited by shares for example, should not pay taxes similar to an individual 

 

Incidentally, pursuing low cost at the expense of quality and stakeholder responsibility is not a recipe for success.

 

Twenty years ago, 30% worked just fine. Forcing that down 50% benefits whom?

[mommysboy]

5 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

I hear his mum saw it and sent him to bed early.

 

They certainally dint like facts particularly math facts like percentages really seem to cause them real issues. Like above 50% wins.

 

So simple yet so hard to understand by some.

 

'I hear his mum saw it and sent him to bed early.'

 

I doubt it: she wouldn't know me from Adam or his bookcase- so terrible Alzheimers.

 

And should it, or any other chronic disease, happen to you or any of your loved ones you'll be flogging off one of your (alleged) houses to pay for it.

 

I'm not a Remainer.  I am anti far right, which amongst other reasons is why I attack your postings.

Edited November 9, 2018 by mommysboy

[mogandave]

As you will know, much of corporate law is built around the concept that a company is a legal entity in much the same way as an individual. Hence the strict regulations on directors. I see no reason why a corporation, a company limited by shares for example, should not pay taxes similar to an individual 
 
Incidentally, pursuing low cost at the expense of quality and stakeholder responsibility is not a recipe for success.
 
Twenty years ago, 30% worked just fine. Forcing that down 50% benefits whom?

Twenty years ago it was more difficult to relocate.

Raise it back up and see how many companies flee.

So if you raise corporate taxes, who will end up paying it:
1. The CEO
2. The Stockholders
3. The Workforce
4. The Consumer (i. e. the workforce)
5. The Country (they move)

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Do you actually read what you post, or do you just hope people don’t check and find out? Or do you just do it like your fat orange idol in the US and completely ignore the truth? 

 

From the article you linked (annotations by me):

And they expect us to roll over and agree with them! ????