UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Yes those 3 nations were screwed over because they are members of the Eurozone. What has that got to do with the UK's membership in the EU?

Also, Greeks did not vote 62-38 percent for independence. That's simply false. They did vote to reject the terms the EU imposed on them. But in fact, in subsequent elections. leaving the Eurozone or the EU was, to put it mildly, not a popular option..

tend to agree

also my understanding is that Greece is clear that she wants to stay in EU and the Eurozone.

 

as for Italy, I expect lively exchanges between EU and Italy in times to come, opera can be entertaining.

 

I think this canterbury creature and a few others are a bit over the top re blaming EU now,

 

there is hardly any doubt that EU dragged Ireland and Portugal out of poverty

no doubt EU played a major role in sorting Spain post fascism

(Italy is Italy - special case when it comes to politics and institutional matters, so is Austria OPERA is more fun)

 

done some good stuff some not so good stuff

 

greece and debts, greece signed on voluntarily, wanted to stay in both EU and the Eurozone

 

Fastnet -79 was not EUs fault.

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Well considering BOTH Ireland and Greece voted to leave via referenda but were not afforded that right, and that Italy looks increasingly likely to leave the Eurozone, (if allowed) I'd say your question is more than a little redundant. A referendum in Italy in the next year or two would be very interesting to see. I wouldn't mind betting that there would be a repeat of the UK ref. in 2016, with a similarly narrow margin FOR LEAVING. If the stagnant economy and fractured political class / system continues to descend along it's current trajectory I think it will spell the end of Italian membership - of the Eurozone at the very least - which would cause untold calamities and would mean the end of the Euro, (long overdue) which would in turn be the fatal blow to the EU, so bring it on I say!

tend to agree

also my understanding is that Greece is clear that she wants to stay in EU and the Eurozone.

 

as for Italy, I expect lively exchanges between EU and Italy in times to come, opera can be entertaining.

 

I think this canterbury creature and a few others are a bit over the top re blaming EU now,

 

there is hardly any doubt that EU dragged Ireland and Portugal out of poverty

no doubt EU played a major role in sorting Spain post fascism

(Italy is Italy - special case when it comes to politics and institutional matters, so is Austria OPERA is more fun)

 

done some good stuff some not so good stuff

 

greece and debts, greece signed on voluntarily, wanted to stay in both EU and the Eurozone

 

Fastnet -79 was not EUs fault.

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Well considering BOTH Ireland and Greece voted to leave via referenda but were not afforded that right, and that Italy looks increasingly likely to leave the Eurozone, (if allowed) I'd say your question is more than a little redundant. A referendum in Italy in the next year or two would be very interesting to see. I wouldn't mind betting that there would be a repeat of the UK ref. in 2016, with a similarly narrow margin FOR LEAVING. If the stagnant economy and fractured political class / system continues to descend along it's current trajectory I think it will spell the end of Italian membership - of the Eurozone at the very least - which would cause untold calamities and would mean the end of the Euro, (long overdue) which would in turn be the fatal blow to the EU, so bring it on I say!

tend to agree

also my understanding is that Greece is clear that she wants to stay in EU and the Eurozone.

 

as for Italy, I expect lively exchanges between EU and Italy in times to come, opera can be entertaining.

 

I think this canterbury creature and a few others are a bit over the top re blaming EU now,

 

there is hardly any doubt that EU dragged Ireland and Portugal out of poverty

no doubt EU played a major role in sorting Spain post fascism

(Italy is Italy - special case when it comes to politics and institutional matters, so is Austria OPERA is more fun)

 

done some good stuff some not so good stuff

 

greece and debts, greece signed on voluntarily, wanted to stay in both EU and the Eurozone

 

Fastnet -79 was not EUs fault.

[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

tend to agree

also my understanding is that Greece is clear that she wants to stay in EU and the Eurozone.

 

as for Italy, I expect lively exchanges between EU and Italy in times to come, opera can be entertaining.

 

I think this canterbury creature and a few others are a bit over the top re blaming EU now,

 

there is hardly any doubt that EU dragged Ireland and Portugal out of poverty

no doubt EU played a major role in sorting Spain post fascism

(Italy is Italy - special case when it comes to politics and institutional matters, so is Austria OPERA is more fun)

 

done some good stuff some not so good stuff

 

greece and debts, greece signed on voluntarily, wanted to stay in both EU and the Eurozone

 

Fastnet -79 was not EUs fault.

Whatever the good effects of the EU may be, I don't think it has anything to do with the Euro. Poland sailed right through the recession thanks to it not being part of the Eurozone. Ireland certainly would have been better off also. 

Greece did want to stay on but that's at least partially because of the vindictive policy championed by Germany to protect its big banks. The most humane policy would have been to help Greece leave the Eurozone. Portuglal too. Those were the 2 cases where the debt in question was incurred by governments that ought never to have been in the Eurozone in the first place. In the case of Spain and Ireland, the EU made governments responsible for bank loans to the private sector that went bad. Completely unjustifiable.

The bailout wasn't really a bailout of Greece but of the banks that foolishly lent it money. Or rather what should have been foolish. But most likely they were counting on the EU to bail them out. Which is exactly what happened.

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Well considering BOTH Ireland and Greece voted to leave via referenda but were not afforded that right, and that Italy looks increasingly likely to leave the Eurozone, (if allowed) I'd say your question is more than a little redundant. A referendum in Italy in the next year or two would be very interesting to see. I wouldn't mind betting that there would be a repeat of the UK ref. in 2016, with a similarly narrow margin FOR LEAVING. If the stagnant economy and fractured political class / system continues to descend along it's current trajectory I think it will spell the end of Italian membership - of the Eurozone at the very least - which would cause untold calamities and would mean the end of the Euro, (long overdue) which would in turn be the fatal blow to the EU, so bring it on I say!

 

 

Fastnet -79 was not EUs fault.

[tebee]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

and assumably enjoying today's wine release

 

Shops not open yet here !

 

But i'm more likely to be enjoying a bottle of Lidl's 56 baht red !

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

35 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Right it was the EU that cut taxes on the wealthy in the UK and slashed support for the NHS, Social Services, and the Police. Definitely the EU's policy to turn the UK into a mini-USA.

Obfuscation - and you have avoided answering some of my points above too.

 

I have made quite a few to be fair, and I recognise that you at least debate, unlike the vast majority, but still the above has nothing to do with what I was saying or quoting. I make no attempt to overlook or assign blame elsewhere for the issues created at home by British governments. That would serve to exculpate the British politicians of their responsibility, a idea I wouldn't give any credit to.

 

EU directives do however, have a wide-reaching effect across Europe and have over the decades, impinged more and more on our sovereignty. The major reason they have not had more of an effect on the nation fiscally/economically is only because there was just enough common sense around to avoid joining the Eurozone - a pillar of the EU project after all. 

 

57 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

No, the UK would not be partly responsible for any such debt incurred the EU. That was settled during the last financial collapse. The EU briefly tried it on, the UK said no, and that was that. There was no mechanism the EU could impose to afflict the UK. However, the UK would still be responsible for a share of Greece's debts incurred through the IMF. But if the issue is that important to you, maybe you should support the UK exiting from the IMF as well.

In the interest of resting my fingers for a while, and having more pressing matters to attend to, I will have to retort later on. It is a complicated and broad topic, and one I would need to take some time to formulate a considered reply to, which I will as I disagree with some of what you say here, other than exiting from the IMF funds.

 

57 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

And as for the moral concern,

 

57 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

UK tried to muscle Iceland into being responsible for the losses incurred by UK citizens with accounts in Icelandic banks

I don't have any issue with this statement - I would agree with you - it is amoral and wrong and I didn't support it. But it is not strictly comparable to what has happened in places like Greece as I have referenced, and as I said, I believe the UK government/BoE and other financial institutions have to shoulder their part of the blame and this behaviour is indeed illegitmate and out of order.

 

57 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

The results of your search won't please you. You could start with Italy.

 Ha! I have looked many times BB, and turned up vastly divergent info. I place little faith in the majority of 'polls' as they seem to be so utterly inept at predicting outcomes or accurately gauging public opinion - as we learned in the last 2 years and some. A national referendum in Italy and a few other EU nations such as Hungary and Poland could perhaps be on the cards in the forseeable, I wouldn't like to bet what the result would be, it may well be close, but I wouldn't be so sure it would go the way you expect it to either. Especially if the shit continues to hit the fan in the Eurozone / Schengen bloc.

Edited November 15, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

36 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

I think this canterbury creature and a few others are a bit over the top re blaming EU now,

Jeez, if you're going to insult me at least get my name right. ????

 

33 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

Fastnet -79 was not EUs fault.

Nebulous as usual.

Edited November 15, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Obfuscation - and you have avoided answering some of my points above too.

 

I have made quite a few to be fair, and I recognise that you at least debate, unlike the vast majority, but still the above has nothing to do with what I was saying or quoting. I make no attempt to overlook or assign blame elsewhere for the issues created at home by British governments. That would serve to exculpate the British politicians of their responsibility, a idea I wouldn't give any credit to.

 

EU directives do however, have a wide-reaching effect across Europe and have over the decades, impinged more and more on our sovereignty. The major reason they have not had more of an effect on the nation fiscally is only because there was just enough common sense to avoid joining the Eurozone - a pillar of the EU project after all. 

 

In the interest of resting my fingers for a while, and having more pressing matters to attend to, I will have to retort later on. It is a complicated and broad topic, and one I would need to take some time to formulate a considered reply to, which I will as I disagree with some of what you say here, other than exiting from the IMF funds.

 

 

I don't have any issue with this statement - I would agree with you - it is amoral and wrong and I didn't support it. But it is not strictly comparable to what has happened in places like Greece as I have referenced, and as I said, I believe the UK government/BoE and other financial institutions have to shoulder their part of the blame and this behaviour is indeed illegitmate and out of order.

 

 Ha! I have looked many times BB, and turned up vastly divergent info. I place little faith in the majority of 'polls' as they seem to be so utterly inept at predicting outcomes or accurately gauging public opinion - as we learned in the last 2 years and some. A national referendum in Italy and a few other EU nations such as Hungary and Poland could perhaps be on the cards in the forseeable, I wouldn't like to bet what the result would be, it may well be close, but I wouldn't be so sure it would go the way you expect it to either. Especially if the shit continues to hit the fan in the Eurozone / Schengen bloc.

If the politicians in charge in Italy agreed with you, why haven't they been pushing for such a referendum? In fact, they are asserting that they support no such thing.  In France Marie Le Pen actually threw out the anti-Euro faction of her party because it was so unpopular with the base. I don't agree with the support of the Euro in either country, but I don't confuse my views with theirs. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

If a vote for the future  independence of a country isn't important, then what is?

The EU didn’t run any “vote for the future independence”. Still the EU is wasting resources on this circus. Be a bit more grateful. 

 

Quote

 

They're simply called borders, there is no 'closed' connotation anywhere other than in your and a worrying amount of other's addled minds. The UK isn't proposing to become Bhutan or North Korea. Legal immigration and import is and always will be important and desired, despite certain wild assumptions to the contrary.

Common sense and experience dictates its a necessity to have immigration / customs checkpoints, but having a properly manned and independently controlled border is of course crucial - it's a fundamental part of being sovereign, after all. Borders are what define a country's geography, remit and jurisdiction, that should be a simple and obvious enough concept to wrap your head around, but it clearly isn't for some.

You still didn’t realize that reality looks a bit different (Ireland)? Congrats. 

 

Quote

 

Nowhere else in the world does the absurd framework of the single-market/free movement of people coupling that the EU imposes on its increasingly despairing member states, exist. NOWHERE! I wonder why that is? If you want to study, work, trade or retire in a foreign European country then simply apply for the relevant visa as you would anywhere else in the world AND as was the case and happened daily and without issue for many, many years before Maastricht.

I don’t care what other countries are doing. Europe is doing pretty well; I’m sure many countries would love to join. In fact, didn’t quite some countries decided to join? Can’t be that bad after all. Let’s see how the U.K. will be doing ???? 

 

Quote

 

To put it concisely -

I offer some fine examples of why this point is so laughably ludicrous: 

Nothing laughable about it. The EU does not have a mandate to fix a member state’s problems, apart from certain membership rules maybe, which we can see in the case of Italy and Greece. 

 

Quote

 

I only pray the UK can remove itself from this mess - as definitively as possible - as soon as possible.

Can you please just do it and not waste our resources? We are entertaining you circus for 2+ years now, with another two or so years to come. Out means out, I understood. 

 

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

If a vote for the future  independence of a country isn't important, then what is?

The EU didn’t run any “vote for the future independence”. Still the EU is wasting resources on this circus. Be a bit more grateful. 

 

Quote

 

They're simply called borders, there is no 'closed' connotation anywhere other than in your and a worrying amount of other's addled minds. The UK isn't proposing to become Bhutan or North Korea. Legal immigration and import is and always will be important and desired, despite certain wild assumptions to the contrary.

Common sense and experience dictates its a necessity to have immigration / customs checkpoints, but having a properly manned and independently controlled border is of course crucial - it's a fundamental part of being sovereign, after all. Borders are what define a country's geography, remit and jurisdiction, that should be a simple and obvious enough concept to wrap your head around, but it clearly isn't for some.

You still didn’t realize that reality looks a bit different (Ireland)? Congrats. 

 

Quote

 

Nowhere else in the world does the absurd framework of the single-market/free movement of people coupling that the EU imposes on its increasingly despairing member states, exist. NOWHERE! I wonder why that is? If you want to study, work, trade or retire in a foreign European country then simply apply for the relevant visa as you would anywhere else in the world AND as was the case and happened daily and without issue for many, many years before Maastricht.

I don’t care what other countries are doing. Europe is doing pretty well; I’m sure many countries would love to join. In fact, didn’t quite some countries decided to join? Can’t be that bad after all. Let’s see how the U.K. will be doing ???? 

 

Quote

 

To put it concisely -

I offer some fine examples of why this point is so laughably ludicrous: 

Nothing laughable about it. The EU does not have a mandate to fix a member state’s problems, apart from certain membership rules maybe, which we can see in the case of Italy and Greece. 

 

Quote

 

I only pray the UK can remove itself from this mess - as definitively as possible - as soon as possible.

Can you please just do it and not waste our resources? We are entertaining you circus for 2+ years now, with another two or so years to come. Out means out, I understood. 

 

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

15 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

If the politicians in charge in Italy agreed with you, why haven't they been pushing for such a referendum? In fact, they are asserting that they support no such thing.  In France Marie Le Pen actually threw out the anti-Euro faction of her party because it was so unpopular with the base. I don't agree with the support of the Euro in either country, but I don't confuse my views with theirs. 

I don't think the majority of politicians do want a referendum (besides perhaps Grillo and Five Star) just as the majority of politicians in the UK didn't want to have one or to leave either - the EU is a gravy train - a post UK-politics career path for many of them. I do know that there are large parts of the Italian public who are getting very p****d off with the state their country/economy is in and have no love-loss for the EU or the Euro. The growing frustration and palpable dislike for the policies of the EU and a move to exit the Eurozone are undeniable in my view.

 

'I don't agree with the support of the Euro in either country, but I don't confuse my views with theirs.' - Fine, we agree on that then. The French and Germans have a different view of the EU and the Euro to the Italians, for reasons that are numerous and many of which historically based. The one thing I take issue with is the implication you make that my views are nationalistic and akin to those of rabid Front Nationale supporters whom are often racists - as I'd concede UKIP probably has a few of too. Don't lump me in with these morons.

Edited November 15, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

If a vote for the future  independence of a country isn't important, then what is?

The EU didn’t run any “vote for the future independence”. Still the EU is wasting resources on this circus. Be a bit more grateful. 

 

Quote

 

They're simply called borders, there is no 'closed' connotation anywhere other than in your and a worrying amount of other's addled minds. The UK isn't proposing to become Bhutan or North Korea. Legal immigration and import is and always will be important and desired, despite certain wild assumptions to the contrary.

Common sense and experience dictates its a necessity to have immigration / customs checkpoints, but having a properly manned and independently controlled border is of course crucial - it's a fundamental part of being sovereign, after all. Borders are what define a country's geography, remit and jurisdiction, that should be a simple and obvious enough concept to wrap your head around, but it clearly isn't for some.

You still didn’t realize that reality looks a bit different (Ireland)? Congrats. 

 

Quote

 

Nowhere else in the world does the absurd framework of the single-market/free movement of people coupling that the EU imposes on its increasingly despairing member states, exist. NOWHERE! I wonder why that is? If you want to study, work, trade or retire in a foreign European country then simply apply for the relevant visa as you would anywhere else in the world AND as was the case and happened daily and without issue for many, many years before Maastricht.

I don’t care what other countries are doing. Europe is doing pretty well; I’m sure many countries would love to join. In fact, didn’t quite some countries decided to join? Can’t be that bad after all. Let’s see how the U.K. will be doing ???? 

 

Quote

 

To put it concisely -

I offer some fine examples of why this point is so laughably ludicrous: 

Nothing laughable about it. The EU does not have a mandate to fix a member state’s problems, apart from certain membership rules maybe, which we can see in the case of Italy and Greece. 

 

Quote

 

I only pray the UK can remove itself from this mess - as definitively as possible - as soon as possible.

Can you please just do it and not waste our resources? We are entertaining you circus for 2+ years now, with another two or so years to come. Out means out, I understood. 

 

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

37 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Whatever the good effects of the EU may be, I don't think it has anything to do with the Euro. Poland sailed right through the recession thanks to it not being part of the Eurozone. Ireland certainly would have been better off also. 

Greece did want to stay on but that's at least partially because of the vindictive policy championed by Germany to protect its big banks. The most humane policy would have been to help Greece leave the Eurozone. Portuglal too. Those were the 2 cases where the debt in question was incurred by governments that ought never to have been in the Eurozone in the first place. In the case of Spain and Ireland, the EU made governments responsible for bank loans to the private sector that went bad. Completely unjustifiable.

The bailout wasn't really a bailout of Greece but of the banks that foolishly lent it money. Or rather what should have been foolish. But most likely they were counting on the EU to bail them out. Which is exactly what happened.

For once - I am in total agreement with you.

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

If a vote for the future  independence of a country isn't important, then what is?

The EU didn’t run any “vote for the future independence”. Still the EU is wasting resources on this circus. Be a bit more grateful. 

 

Quote

 

They're simply called borders, there is no 'closed' connotation anywhere other than in your and a worrying amount of other's addled minds. The UK isn't proposing to become Bhutan or North Korea. Legal immigration and import is and always will be important and desired, despite certain wild assumptions to the contrary.

Common sense and experience dictates its a necessity to have immigration / customs checkpoints, but having a properly manned and independently controlled border is of course crucial - it's a fundamental part of being sovereign, after all. Borders are what define a country's geography, remit and jurisdiction, that should be a simple and obvious enough concept to wrap your head around, but it clearly isn't for some.

You still didn’t realize that reality looks a bit different (Ireland)? Congrats. 

 

Quote

 

Nowhere else in the world does the absurd framework of the single-market/free movement of people coupling that the EU imposes on its increasingly despairing member states, exist. NOWHERE! I wonder why that is? If you want to study, work, trade or retire in a foreign European country then simply apply for the relevant visa as you would anywhere else in the world AND as was the case and happened daily and without issue for many, many years before Maastricht.

I don’t care what other countries are doing. Europe is doing pretty well; I’m sure many countries would love to join. In fact, didn’t quite some countries decided to join? Can’t be that bad after all. Let’s see how the U.K. will be doing ???? 

 

Quote

 

To put it concisely -

I offer some fine examples of why this point is so laughably ludicrous: 

Nothing laughable about it. The EU does not have a mandate to fix a member state’s problems, apart from certain membership rules maybe, which we can see in the case of Italy and Greece. 

 

Quote

 

I only pray the UK can remove itself from this mess - as definitively as possible - as soon as possible.

Can you please just do it and not waste our resources? We are entertaining you circus for 2+ years now, with another two or so years to come. Out means out, I understood. 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

11 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Jeez, if you're going to insult me at least get my name right, a lack of attention to detail seems to be a recurring theme in your posts. ????

 

Nebulous as usual.

for weeks and weeks, you have been writing pages down and pages up about how you see the world,

and that way is the way the world should be and the way all OK people should see it

and you refer to all others as nonsensers and nitwits ad non-knowers

 

you feel you have to correct all views expressed you don't agree with by another page full or two

with your view of the world, interspersed with insults re the mental capabilities of those that feel otherwise

 

you constantly downplay and pull into doubt the intelligence of people expressing views that doesn't suit you,

you are a menace, maybe your name is Dennis - dunno

 

My post was not intended to insult, I just find that you and your likes are getting over the top re unsubstantiated 

negatives - I have no idea about your name, maybe Roger maybe Refrigerator or Dennis or Cecil Cyril, dunno

 

If you could pipe down a bit, this thread would be a more comfortable thread to follow.

You are taking up to much space and try to do too much commandeering.

'

There should be room for other views than yours. on bar stools, in TVF and in UK

 

And to round off,

bloody annoying all this call for proof proof proof link link link source source source,

should be possible to exchange views in piece and quiet among grown ups without this proof-link-source crap,

that is more suitable for not grown ups, kindergarten - primary school and thereabouts

 

And,

nothing unclear about Fastnet-79.

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

11 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Jeez, if you're going to insult me at least get my name right, a lack of attention to detail seems to be a recurring theme in your posts. ????

 

Nebulous as usual.

for weeks and weeks, you have been writing pages down and pages up about how you see the world,

and that way is the way the world should be and the way all OK people should see it

and you refer to all others as nonsensers and nitwits ad non-knowers

 

you feel you have to correct all views expressed you don't agree with by another page full or two

with your view of the world, interspersed with insults re the mental capabilities of those that feel otherwise

 

you constantly downplay and pull into doubt the intelligence of people expressing views that doesn't suit you,

you are a menace, maybe your name is Dennis - dunno

 

My post was not intended to insult, I just find that you and your likes are getting over the top re unsubstantiated 

negatives - I have no idea about your name, maybe Roger maybe Refrigerator or Dennis or Cecil Cyril, dunno

 

If you could pipe down a bit, this thread would be a more comfortable thread to follow.

You are taking up to much space and try to do too much commandeering.

'

There should be room for other views than yours. on bar stools, in TVF and in UK

 

And to round off,

bloody annoying all this call for proof proof proof link link link source source source,

should be possible to exchange views in peace and quiet among grown ups without this proof-link-source crap,

that is more suitable for not grown ups, kindergarten - primary school and thereabouts

 

And,

nothing unclear about Fastnet-79.

 

 

[rixalex]

3 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Do you want to rethink that question?

Why?

 

The insinuation made by you was clear: "Farage wouldn't have accepted a narrow defeat so why should I?"

 

How else was your post supposed to be read?

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, rixalex said:

Why?

 

The insinuation made by you was clear: "Farage wouldn't have accepted a narrow defeat so why should I?"

 

How else was your post supposed to be read?

Maybe it's about consistency?

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

If a vote for the future  independence of a country isn't important, then what is?

The EU didn’t run any “vote for the future independence”. Still the EU is wasting resources on this circus. Be a bit more grateful. 

 

Quote

 

They're simply called borders, there is no 'closed' connotation anywhere other than in your and a worrying amount of other's addled minds. The UK isn't proposing to become Bhutan or North Korea. Legal immigration and import is and always will be important and desired, despite certain wild assumptions to the contrary.

Common sense and experience dictates its a necessity to have immigration / customs checkpoints, but having a properly manned and independently controlled border is of course crucial - it's a fundamental part of being sovereign, after all. Borders are what define a country's geography, remit and jurisdiction, that should be a simple and obvious enough concept to wrap your head around, but it clearly isn't for some.

You still didn’t realize that reality looks a bit different (Ireland)? Congrats. 

 

Quote

 

Nowhere else in the world does the absurd framework of the single-market/free movement of people coupling that the EU imposes on its increasingly despairing member states, exist. NOWHERE! I wonder why that is? If you want to study, work, trade or retire in a foreign European country then simply apply for the relevant visa as you would anywhere else in the world AND as was the case and happened daily and without issue for many, many years before Maastricht.

I don’t care what other countries are doing. Europe is doing pretty well; I’m sure many countries would love to join. In fact, didn’t quite some countries decided to join? Can’t be that bad after all. Let’s see how the U.K. will be doing ???? 

 

Quote

 

To put it concisely -

I offer some fine examples of why this point is so laughably ludicrous: 

Nothing laughable about it. The EU does not have a mandate to fix a member state’s problems, apart from certain membership rules maybe, which we can see in the case of Italy and Greece. 

 

Quote

 

I only pray the UK can remove itself from this mess - as definitively as possible - as soon as possible.

Can you please just do it and not waste our resources? We are entertaining you circus for 2+ years now, with another two or so years to come. Out means out, I understood. 

 

 

[rixalex]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Maybe it's about consistency?

From the person suddenly quoting Mr. Farage as if he's the benchmark of what to do and what not to do.

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

40 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

for weeks and weeks, you have been writing pages down and pages up about how you see the world,

and that way is the way the world should be and the way all OK people should see it

and you refer to all others as nonsensers and nitwits ad non-knowers

 

you feel you have to correct all views expressed you don't agree with by another page full or two

with your view of the world, interspersed with insults re the mental capabilities of those that feel otherwise

 

you constantly downplay and pull into doubt the intelligence of people expressing views that doesn't suit you,

you are a menace, maybe your name is Dennis - dunno

 

My post was not intended to insult, I just find that you and your likes are getting over the top re unsubstantiated 

negatives - I have no idea about your name, maybe Roger maybe Refrigerator or Dennis or Cecil Cyril, dunno

 

If you could pipe down a bit, this thread would be a more comfortable thread to follow.

You are taking up to much space and try to do too much commandeering.

'

There should be room for other views than yours. on bar stools, in TVF and in UK

 

And to round off,

bloody annoying all this call for proof proof proof link link link source source source,

should be possible to exchange views in piece and quiet among grown ups without this proof-link-source crap,

that is more suitable for not grown ups, kindergarten - primary school and thereabouts

 

And,

nothing unclear about Fastnet-79.

 

 

Woah. Certainly rubbed someone up the wrong way, I see.

I'll address this real quick cos I feel I must.

 

I'm not commandeering anything, this IS A DEBATE, and I am free to write what I want just as anyone else is, I take no issue with anyone writing what they want, even if it does appear to be unfounded or totally biased at times.

What other view of the world will I espouse other than my own? Yours? Is that what you'd like to hear?

I don't feel I have to correct anyone's 'views' but simply challenge them if they're making false claims or spreading falsities. Why you think I am dominating this thread I really don't know, 

'There should be room for other views than yours. on bar stools, in TVF and in UK' - there definitely is - just scroll back and look at the comments to observe that.

 

you constantly downplay and pull into doubt the intelligence of people expressing views that doesn't suit you / interspersed with insults - I have rarely insulted the character of anyone on here as that is a puerile thing to do and detracts from serious discussion. What you have described above is a near perfect description of the content of the majority (not all) of the opposition / remain crowd on here - including yourself, it's something that many other posters as well as I have lamented. I actually always try my best not to insult the person making the comment, but attack the content of the comment instead - which is fair game. 

 

re unsubstantiated negatives / bloody annoying all this call for proof proof proof link link link source source source, - for me that says it all. I am not making unsubstantiated claims as I generally try to back up what I say with quotes/facts and supporting articles - one reason why they might be a bit lengthier.

A call for others to do the same seems totally reasonable. Not necessary every time but it simply raises the level of debate if we can discuss facts/evidence etc. rather than talk rubbish that cannot be verified or is just emotionally-derived. This is the point of a debate surely? To increase understanding of a topic/situation. Something a few of us on here try to do with the 'bloody annoying proof, links & sources.'

 

should be possible to exchange views in piece and quiet among grown ups without this proof-link-source crap - I am not an arbiter or referee of TVF, never once claimed to be - but neither are you, so where do you get off telling me that my posts 'take up too much room'? or telling me to pipe down!? Could say the exact same thing back to you. If you don't wanna read my posts, scroll on, simple. Don't attempt to censor me or tell me my business. 

 

I have on more than one occasion actually apologised for my own verbosity too, something you maybe overlooked? I try to make well rounded and informed points, you may disagree that I succeed, but that is my aim - that can't usually be achieved in one or two short paragraphs. However, I really won't apologise to you or anyone else for stating my opinion whilst trying to also show that it's based in fact rather than an emotional reaction. Furthermore it would seem that many people of a like-mind on this thread appreciate my comments, as evidenced earlier today. So, while that is still the case and while I still have something to offer to this very relevant debate, I will continue to contribute, whether you like it or not! ????

 

Edited November 15, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

duplicated post.

Edited November 15, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[SheungWan]

39 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

You are taking up to much space and try to do too much commandeering.

One of the unfortunate side effects of Brexit is that it has released into the UK wild a strange hybrid of pompous nationalists who come over like coked-up members of Dad's Army. Heroes in their own mind. 'sniff...

[SheungWan]

Sterling dropping like a stone. Looks like the Hard Brexiteers are winning.

[baboon]

Dominic Raab has resigned. Because of the crappy Brexit deal he was instrumental in negotiating...

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, kwilco said:

So we get to stay in the CU but without any say and our workers can't work there any more.......... only a complete moron could suggest that is an improvement

Plus this proposal gives the E.U the right to veto any future agreement on the E.U leaving the Customs Union. Even if the British people demand we leave. In other words we are an E.U. colony.

Should we throw tea, or perhaps potatoes into the Wash at Boston.

[sandyf]

I wonder who thought it would ever be anything else.

 

The Brexit deal struck between Britain and the EU is "lose-lose" and about "damage control", the president of the European Council has said.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-news-donald-tusk-michel-barnier-theresa-may-withdrawal-agreement-eu-a8634511.html

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, kwilco said:

So we get to stay in the CU but without any say and our workers can't work there any more.......... only a complete moron could suggest that is an improvement

From what I’ve heard on the news this morning, the rights of the 3 million E.U citizens now in the U.K will be protected,along with the rights of the 1 million Brits now in the E.U. So a pretty good deal for the E.U. Especially as many of them will soon be eligible for British citizenship,and therefore able to vote in our elections.

[aright]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

Shops not open yet here !

 

But i'm more likely to be enjoying a bottle of Lidl's 56 baht red !

I see the quality of your wine matches the quality of your politics.  ????