UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Even the "government" refers to The People's Vote.

 

Personally, I am against any referendums. I wouldn't ask the population anything except what they are for breakfast.

 

Referendums are for the population to ratify (rubber stamp) decisions already taken by grown ups. [ it gives them a nice warm feeling like wetting their trousers]

In fear of becoming to sound like Lloyd Grosman (excuse spelling), lets look at the evidence, would I be correct in saying that the people had their vote 2 years ago, would I be also correct in saying that the country as a whole voted to leave the EU. So that must in conclusion mean that if there was to be another vote it would not be a peoples vote, purely on the understanding that the leavers are quite happy with the vote they had two years ago, it would be infact a remainers vote or a losers vote, take your pick.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, vinny41 said:

60% Of Italians Think EU Is Bad For Italy

As the 27 EU members who aren't the UK brace for the inevitable fallout for what increasingly looks to be a bumpy Brexit, one shocking poll revealed that 60% of Italians feel that their country has been mistreated by the European Union. If accurate, that's several percentage points higher than the percentage of Britons who voted to leave the EU back in 2016.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-16/shocking-poll-shows-60-italians-think-eu-bad-italy

Off topic

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Does this mean the EU will allow a vote every 5 years for all eu countries to remain or leave after all you are saying "because a new vote is democratic"

Only one. NEVER again

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

The unpalatable truth is the Brexit supporters are terrified at the prospect of a second referendum, and for good reason. It will only happen, in my view, if the country is staring at a “no deal” scenario. If May’s deal, or some other deal, is accepted by the UK and EU it will not arise. But if it does arise it will be a mirror of the last one, with no super majority. 

Dear god, how many more times? UK referendums are advisory only. That is why a super majority is not specified. We don't allow the population to take decisions for damn good reason.

[tomacht8]

1 hour ago, BwindiBoy said:

And Remainers all voted for the same version of "Remain"?  They ALL want a federal Europe, with diminishing individual state powers, and a European army?  Why do you hate it so much that the UK people are confident enough to choose independence?

A common European army would be good.
That would greatly prevent the danger of an intra-European war.
Thanks to the EU, since the end of World War II, there has been peace within Europe (except for the collapse of Yugoslavia).
EU member states could save a shitload of money by jointly developing and using the same defense systems.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

A common European army would be good.
That would greatly prevent the danger of an intra-European war.
Thanks to the EU, since the end of World War II, there has been peace within Europe (except for the collapse of Yugoslavia).
EU member states could save a shitload of money by jointly developing and using the same defense systems.

Yes and wouldn't it be great if we had a C in C like Jean Claude Juncker to lead us into battle. ????????????

[damascase]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Yes and wouldn't it be great if we had a C in C like Jean Claude Juncker to lead us into battle. ????????????

Again and again, you do no want to understand how the EU works. Or you do, but it doesn’t fit your purpose.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Johnyo said:

 

The one person I have been watching carefully since the Referendum vote has been Liam Fox and it is conspicuous that he has laid his cards on the table by supporting May’s withdrawal deal and not his fellow hard Brexiters.

 

It gives the impression the trade secretary tasked with creating favourable new free trade deals, and which he stated were ‘the easiest thing in the world to arrange’, has found them to not exist. It certainly hasn’t been the case with the EU as he insisted it would.

 

Over the past two years he would have been shouting his success at every opportunity about the new deals he has drummed up elsewhere had they existed. The fact that he is not pushing for May to follow a hard Brexit is the key and his silence is deafening.

 

People really should analyse ALL the information coming out regarding our future economic situation and not simply bury their heads in the sand by following the two-issue ideology constantly promoted by the Brexiters (controlling immigration and taking back control).

 

Project Fear is turning into Project Reality with each passing day.

 

 

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When did Liam leave Oasis? He doesn't look very well

[tomacht8]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Yes and wouldn't it be great if we had a C in C like Jean Claude Juncker to lead us into battle. ????????????

Oh dear.
Kindergarten Level.
But comfort you, his term ends in November 2019

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

Here a little EU Leaving Checklist.
What you want?


- Free movement of goods, persons, services and capital (the four so-called "fundamental freedoms") - including the free movement of EU citizens in their choice of place of residence and employment
(Yes? / No?)

- Definition of minimum democratic standards for EU states and establishment of fundamental rights, eg. In the "Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union", including children, labor and data protection rights (Yes? / No?)

- Regulation of the competition, which, for example, it has reduced the number of roaming charges within the EU by more than 80% since 2007 (Yes? / No?)

- EU structural assistance to align structurally and economically weaker regions with the EU average or to encourage innovation (Yes? / No?)

- Freedom of travel without boarder controls within the EU (Yes? / No?)

- Europe-wide cooperation of the judicial and police authorities on the fight against crime
like the European Police Office EUROPOL and the European Judicial and Customs Authority EURJUST
(Yes? / No?)

- Europe-wide mutual recognition of professional diplomas, school certificates and training certificates (Yes? / No?)

- Studying in other European countries through Erasmus programs (more than 2.5 million students since 1987) (Yes? / No?)

- Promotion of environmental protection eg by renewable energy or guidelines for water and waste, nature conservation, flora & fauna, end-of-life car recycling or air quality.
(Yes? / No?)

- Comprehensive consumer protection rules with uniform minimum standards for quality, safety and health including labeling of genetically modified food, compatibility of cosmetics or safety of children's toys
(Yes? / No?)

- Cooperation between EU Member States in the field of the protection of the external borders, eg. FRONTEX (Yes? / No?)

- Membership in the surveillance system EURATOM (Yes? / No?)

- Membership in the Galileo satellite navigation project (Yes? / No?)

- Membership in the central authorization procedure for medicines for the entire EU economic area, eg EMA (Yes? / No?)

- Membership in EUROCONTROL. The European Union (in cooperation with Norway and Switzerland) is currently developing the "Single European Sky" project. (Yes? / No?)


- Membership of EU Research Framework Programs, eg Horizon 2020 (2014-2020)
with € 70.2bn budget (Yes? / No?)

- Pan-European Banking Control (Yes? / No?)

- The euro as a single currency within the eurozone (Yes? / No?)

- Cooperation in Securing peace in Europe (Yes? / No?)
 

Great idea but 52% of the English will not understand the questions. Can you use mono syllabic words innit?

[mommysboy]

49 minutes ago, bomber said:

a better deal is not possible,how can the gove gang do better? total waste of time to even sit at the same table.it was always going to be damage limitation and that is how its turned out,thanks brexit boys and girls and how many of you wanted JC and his Labour morons,cos that is what you have delivered to the british people.

Yup! Labour's fault. Eu's fault, Remainer's fault.  Never just a bad job by Leavers, is it?  They have really mucked things up.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Oh dear.
Kindergarten Level.
But comfort you, his term ends in November 2019

He should have never been there in the first place.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, adammike said:

Spud bashing is what it was known as in Kent when I was a boy,horrible when it was wet and muddy.

Aye, ten shillings was not be sneezed at

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, damascase said:

Again and again, you do no want to understand how the EU works. Or you do, but it doesn’t fit your purpose.

I am sorry I made a jocular remark about the greatest leader the world has ever seen, when you can't take critism of your great empire you have problems, believe me.

[JAG]

2 hours ago, Jack100 said:

Would it be naïve of me to think that after Brexit , if the  jolly French customs  man at the port or aiport has a bad day ( wine hangover )  - the Italian , German and Dutch papers will go to the top of his pile and the UK papers well ....will not . ?

I don't see why not, after all they have been doing that for the last 20 years or so - how many times have the Channel Ports been blockaded, with the effective co-operation, or at least tacit permission, of the French authorities?

 

Lamb, beef, anyone?

Edited November 18, 2018 by JAG

[tomacht8]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

He should have never been there in the first place.

On 15 July 2014, the European Parliament voted 422 to 250 (47 abstentions, 10 invalid) for Juncker.
Unfortunately, the UK missed to build up a better candidate.
He was then elected with 62.8% of the vote.
Significantly more than the vote for Brexit.
 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, tomacht8 said:

On 15 July 2014, the European Parliament voted 422 to 250 (47 abstentions, 10 invalid) for Juncker.
Unfortunately, the UK missed to build up a better candidate.
He was then elected with 62.8% of the vote.
Significantly more than the vote for Brexit.
 

Yes and I read he was railroaded through by Merkel, but I care not one jot about him, he is just one big embarrassment. But I am very happy that you like him.

[JAG]

16 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Oh dear.
Kindergarten Level.
But comfort you, his term ends in November 2019

Remind us, who is he appointing to succeed him as "Der projektleiter" (note I don't use the term "fuhrer" - it is a bit emotive!)

[Grouse]

53 minutes ago, vogie said:

It was only advisory in your world and others in denial, but in reality we all know it was voted for by Parliament and on the leaflet it stated that the Government "will implement whatever you decide" 

I know in grouse world that nothing appears as other people see things, and I know you'll never face reality.

I face facts and ignore BS. I have posted the wording of the act underpinning the referendum on remains in the EU, I won't post it again; look it up. What you or others THOUGHT it meant is immaterial 

[vogie]

Just now, Grouse said:

I face facts and ignore BS. I have posted the wording of the act underpinning the referendum on remains in the EU, I won't post it again; look it up. What you or others THOUGHT it meant is immaterial 

And I know you don't care what Parliament meant either.

 

You can quote the Magna Carta if you want, this is the leaflet every household received through their door.

 

 

[Grouse]

58 minutes ago, vogie said:

What a stupid ignorant arrogant comment, but it does say a lot about you.

I am sure you are an outlier but the image frames succinctly the my view of a mean Brexiter (as opposed to average)

[JAG]

34 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

A common European army would be good.
That would greatly prevent the danger of an intra-European war.
Thanks to the EU, since the end of World War II, there has been peace within Europe (except for the collapse of Yugoslavia).
EU member states could save a shitload of money by jointly developing and using the same defense systems.

The cynical, but probably accurate view of a "common European army" is that it would resemble a slice of toast - except that you can make soldiers out of a slice of toast!

 

If we are to cite the collapse of Yugoslavia in any discussion about a "common European army" it is perhaps worth bearing in mind that with the exception of the British, French, Dutch and Danes the rest of the EU contingents were pretty ineffective. I know, I was there.

 

 

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

And I know you don't care what Parliament meant either.

 

You can quote the Magna Carta if you want, this is the leaflet every household received through their door.

 

 

A leaflet but not the law

 

Cameron could commit his government but did not and could not bind parliament

[rixalex]

It’s not nonsense. Ireland is not an EU issue. It’s an Irish issue that started well before Brexit. But the creation of the EU was a crucial pillar for reaching peace there, because it enabled free movement of goods and people. So, again, of course everyone voting for Brexit knew that he was voting for what you have now. 

Look, if the Irish don't want a hard border and neither do the British, who is going to erect and police the damn thing?

The whole issue has been politicised for leverage. If you believe otherwise you're naive.



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[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

Personally, I don't read too much into it because official policy of both parties is to respect the result of the referendum, not to hold a 2nd referendum, and not to revoke A50.

 

My view is that she is trying to "bounce" Tory MPs to support her deal, and it reflects her increasing desperation. Chequers was constructed without discussion with her cabinet and this statement was too. Actually, this statement is so bizarre and disconnected from policy that I have to wonder if she meant to say it at all, or just got her words mixed up in the parley.

 

However, what this bizarre statement does seem to have done is to increase the likelihood of a change of Tory leadership, which would bring a Leaver into power. Next week in Westminster will be interesting.

appreciate what you say, ta

but UK leading parties are doing politics in a weird weird way - rather non productive

 

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I am sure you are an outlier but the image frames succinctly the my view of a mean Brexiter (as opposed to average)

What frame of mind do you think a remainer has to put an image up like that. Do you think it gives the impression that you are always so keen to project that remainers are intelligent, perleeeeaaase.

 

[damascase]

34 minutes ago, vogie said:

I am sorry I made a jocular remark about the greatest leader the world has ever seen, when you can't take critism of your great empire you have problems, believe me.

Oh, I can take criticism very well, but I must admit that I have problems with stupidity and sheer maliciousness.

Edited November 18, 2018 by damascase

[welovesundaysatspace]

10 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Look, if the Irish don't want a hard border and neither do the British, who is going to erect and police the damn thing?

The whole issue has been politicised for leverage. If you believe otherwise you're naive.



Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I think the only who deserves to be called “naive” is the person claiming that a country will not protect its borders. How many countries do you know that do not erect and police borders? And Wasn’t that exactly one key issue of you Brexiteers, to control your borders? And wasn’t the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland one key issue (and prime target for attacks) during the troubles? And wasn’t it the creation of the EU that enabled opening that border? And now you wanna tell us that actually no one wants borders? 

 

I guess that fantasy must come from the same cloud cuckoo land in which Brexit is the easiest deal in history. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

10 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Look, if the Irish don't want a hard border and neither do the British, who is going to erect and police the damn thing?

The whole issue has been politicised for leverage. If you believe otherwise you're naive.



Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I think the only who deserves to be called “naive” is the person claiming that a country will not protect its borders. How many countries do you know that do not erect and police borders? And Wasn’t that exactly one key issue of you Brexiteers, to control your borders? And wasn’t the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland one key issue (and prime target for attacks) during the troubles? And wasn’t it the creation of the EU that enabled opening that border? And now you wanna tell us that actually no one wants borders? 

 

I guess that fantasy must come from the same cloud cuckoo land in which Brexit is the easiest deal in history. 

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

It terrifies you, doesn’t it? The prospect of a second vote. That’s why you indulge in the above fantasy.

Its not Fantasy and it is everything that the remainers complained about the 2016 EU referendum

At the moment the only group i see quaking in their boots in the remainers so much so they want 2 leave options and 1 remain option on the voting table in the hope that the leave vote would be spilt leaving remain option winning the largest number of votes.