UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[melvinmelvin]

3 minutes ago, baboon said:

They need to be a little careful, given their own 'Gibraltar', Ceuta. What is good for one is good for the other....

Ceuta is only one, Spain has another one also, Melilla, but these are in Africa - and not on the table for EU

 

I can not see any way that UK would accept the Spanish demands,

if  Spain stick to their opportunist shout a no deal  Brexit is coming closer

 

many politicians are like 7 year olds, they take on battles they just can't win, my pecker is bigger than your pecker stuff

backing down means losing face -  hotheaded dimwits

might be challenging to sort this one

 

 

[baboon]

3 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

Ceuta is only one, Spain has another one also, Melilla, but these are in Africa - and not on the table for EU

 

I can not see any way that UK would accept the Spanish demands,

if  Spain stick to their opportunist shout a no deal  Brexit is coming closer

 

many politicians are like 7 year olds, they take on battles they just can't win, my pecker is bigger than your pecker stuff

backing down means losing face -  hotheaded dimwits

might be challenging to sort this one

 

 

Locking the buggers into a chilly aircraft hanger and feeding them only bread and water until they come up with something might be a start...

[Grouse]

27 minutes ago, aright said:

All some Remainers need is an observation by one  individual from Facebook to set in place a raft of unsubstantiated rumours. This is not helpful. If there was any validity to the claim I am sure the Press would have bottomed this out by now.

Nigel Farage German citizenship application claims rejected as 'complete rubbish'

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-german-citizenship-application-embassy-queue-claims-complete-rubbish-rejected-latest-a7194161.html

Too late

 

Dealt with

 

next

[AlexRich]

4 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

I've answered the points you've raised before, usually more than once. But as you seem to be new to this thread, I'll repeat some of what I've already posted.

 

Re calamity and no deal. It all depends on the specific tariff and trade policy. The UK would be free to set tariffs and trade policy for specific sectors to maintain the status quo if it chose to. This would be extremely simple and does not require negotiation with the EU, and would preserve frictionless imports in those sectors. 

 

The car industry has been estimated to be around 1% of GDP, which puts any adverse impact on the car industry into perspective in terms of potential impact on GDP - but there doesn't need to be an adverse effect, as I've mentioned above.

 

Re your point about people being put out of work. This happens with all changes to industrial and trade policies, not just Brexit. But it doesn't need to happen in the car industry for the reasons I've mentioned above.

 

Your comment about some guy who's spent years building up his business getting destroyed by a no deal doesn't really work because the overwhelming majority of SMEs don't trade with the EU at all.

 

Re farming. I'll repeat the point that it would make sense to redirect some of the massive subsidies we currently pay to EU farmers to UK farmers. (The CAP consumes 40% of the EU budget for 2% of GDP, while damaging the environment and increasing cruelty to livestock.)

 

Re your assertion about the UK's lacklustre export performance. Well here's the truth from www.gov.uk Jun 29, 2018.

 

"UK exports at record high. Exports of UK goods and services rose to a record high of £620.2 billion in the year to March 2018 according to new trade figures released today. Exports grew faster to Canada (up 12.7%), India (31.8%) and China (15.3%) than to the EU (10%)".

 

Obviously you are ideologically motivated. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but it's better to stick to facts and reasoned argument. Have a good evening.

 

 

Interesting that you make the prospect of a no-deal Brexit and WTO rules seem so effortless, you'd wonder what all the fuss was about? That is a red flag in itself.

 

Your standard solution is that the UK adjusts tariffs and regulations for EU imports to overcome any disadvantage? That would preserve frictionless imports? 

 

The UK could indeed scrap/lower tariffs and regulations from the EU and accept all products imported from the EU without checks. However, under WTO rules the UK would have to extend this approach to products to all WTO members. So for example, food products would be allowed in on low tariffs without checks, frictionless so to speak. This would not only be damaging to UK farmers and the food industry, it would also threaten food quality and safety standards. Imposing low or no tariffs with the EU would risk driving some UK producers out of business. Many of them would be SME's, who you claim are not affected by any of this. In some industries SME's could be badly damaged.

 

But what about exports? The EU charges a range of tariffs on exports, for example, 21% on food and beverage, 9.6% on fishing and 11% on clothing. Any manufacturer in the UK exporting to the UK would have to absorb these costs. But that's not all. There are also non-tariff barriers, like regulations on product safety, rules or origin and quotas, all of which add considerably to these costs. The EU is still the largest UK export market, with 44% of all UK exports in 2017. A no deal Brexit on WTO terms will devastate that market, there will be reduced EU trade if we go on WTO terms.

 

If WTO terms are so smooth and seamless why then is more than 50% of all trade in the world done under preferential terms, and not WTO terms? The reason is that there are many issues with WTO terms, only some of which I have touched upon here. 

 

The car industry employs over 850,000 people in the UK, with a turnover of $110 billion. Do you think if all they had to do was tweak WTO tariffs and regulations they'd be making a fuss? They have serious concerns about the long term viability of their industry. The SMMT represents SME's that supply the car industry, their CEO stated that "a no deal Brexit could have devastating consequences for the trade" ... but you imply that SME's have nothing to be concerned about? Many SME's in the UK will have negative exposure to a no deal Brexit and WTO terms.

 

Perhaps it's just you personally that won't be affected by it. But many thousands of others will be. 

 

Exports have done well since the currency tanked but it has not been sufficient to compensate for the rest of the factors that make up GDP. Our growth rate in GDP has gone from the highest in the G7 to the lowest, and is now slightly above Italy, hardly something to write home about. Business investment has grown by 2% since the referendum, prior to that the Bank of England had expected it to be 13%. So whatever way you look at it better export performance does not plug the gap. 

 

A no deal Brexit and WTO terms is the worst of all outcomes. Even our trade with the US will be affected ... as we have more than 20 bilateral agreements through the EU, so even with the US we don't just rely on WTO rules. Those agreements will no longer apply.

 

I could go on ... I won't.

 

 

[bristolboy]

11 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Interesting that you make the prospect of a no-deal Brexit and WTO rules seem so effortless, you'd wonder what all the fuss was about? That is a red flag in itself.

 

Your standard solution is that the UK adjusts tariffs and regulations for EU imports to overcome any disadvantage? That would preserve frictionless imports? 

 

The UK could indeed scrap/lower tariffs and regulations from the EU and accept all products imported from the EU without checks. However, under WTO rules the UK would have to extend this approach to products to all WTO members. So for example, food products would be allowed in on low tariffs without checks, frictionless so to speak. This would not only be damaging to UK farmers and the food industry, it would also threaten food quality and safety standards. Imposing low or no tariffs with the EU would risk driving some UK producers out of business. Many of them would be SME's, who you claim are not affected by any of this. In some industries SME's could be badly damaged.

 

But what about exports? The EU charges a range of tariffs on exports, for example, 21% on food and beverage, 9.6% on fishing and 11% on clothing. Any manufacturer in the UK exporting to the UK would have to absorb these costs. But that's not all. There are also non-tariff barriers, like regulations on product safety, rules or origin and quotas, all of which add considerably to these costs. The EU is still the largest UK export market, with 44% of all UK exports in 2017. A no deal Brexit on WTO terms will devastate that market, there will be reduced EU trade if we go on WTO terms.

 

If WTO terms are so smooth and seamless why then is more than 50% of all trade in the world done under preferential terms, and not WTO terms? The reason is that there are many issues with WTO terms, only some of which I have touched upon here. 

 

The car industry employs over 850,000 people in the UK, with a turnover of $110 billion. Do you think if all they had to do was tweak WTO tariffs and regulations they'd be making a fuss? They have serious concerns about the long term viability of their industry. The SMMT represents SME's that supply the car industry, their CEO stated that "a no deal Brexit could have devastating consequences for the trade" ... but you imply that SME's have nothing to be concerned about? Many SME's in the UK will have negative exposure to a no deal Brexit and WTO terms.

 

Perhaps it's just you personally that won't be affected by it. But many thousands of others will be. 

 

Exports have done well since the currency tanked but it has not been sufficient to compensate for the rest of the factors that make up GDP. Our growth rate in GDP has gone from the highest in the G7 to the lowest, and is now slightly above Italy, hardly something to write home about. Business investment has grown by 2% since the referendum, prior to that the Bank of England had expected it to be 13%. So whatever way you look at it better export performance does not plug the gap. 

 

A no deal Brexit and WTO terms is the worst of all outcomes. Even our trade with the US will be affected ... as we have more than 20 bilateral agreements through the EU, so even with the US we don't just rely on WTO rules. Those agreements will no longer apply.

 

I could go on ... I won't.

 

 

It's also useful to point out that while a weak pound on balance will benefit executives and such,, it does tend to lower the standard of living for most of its citizens. Come to think of it, that sounds like the Tory idea of progress.

  And of course, the reason that the pound would be weak is because world markets will judge the UK economy to have weakened.

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

my take?

don't have a founded one - I find it difficult to obtain proper news about what is going on in Brussels this week

can't rely on UK rags, they are biased/skewed

 

have read that Spain is making a fuss re the cliff, this is as expected and will pipe down - me thinks

however, there are other differences between member states - not sure of the concrete fuss

              divorce payment - the 2 year prolongation - NI,  has been mentioned

a couple of EU minister interviews I have seen - they say - Worried - but likely sorted by Sunday

 

if you look at it from a kinda pragmatic point of view:

woud be sort of odd if EU should vote down the deal

 

 

 

Plus the German and French leaders are now pushing for a Eurozone budget as one of their next moves to create a more integrated Europe. This and their now admitted policy to create a E.u. Military force, should wake up even the most committed remoaners to ask, where is the E.u headed. 

As I’ve Said for some time, it’s not where we are now,it’s where they intend to take us, even if we don’t want to go there.

 And unfortunately, they think that democracy will not stop them.

 

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

Why can't we (you and I) travel freely after brexit, Mays Brexit divorce deal says visa free travel in Europe, subject to the HOC passing it of course. ????

Perhaps he’s like us Brexiteers, in that he does’t beleive her. And why should he. As she has shown herself to be an habitual lire.

[bomber]

8 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

It's also useful to point out that while a weak pound on balance will benefit executives and such,, it does tend to lower the standard of living for most of its citizens. Come to think of it, that sounds like the Tory idea of progress.

  And of course, the reason that the pound would be weak is because world markets will judge the UK economy to have weakened.

i agree their is very little pleasure a weak currency would bring to brits,i wonder how much has been spent since brexit in the EU or elsewhere by holiday maker's a family of 4 away for a week spending £1k instead of £820-850 a young guy could do in £1500 on a 2 week bender,£250-300 extra,and thats before we even start with weekends away and the long timers in thailand,and the inflation it caused,got to be into the billions in just 2 years

[adammike]

1 hour ago, baboon said:

They need to be a little careful, given their own 'Gibraltar', Ceuta. What is good for one is good for the other....

Once or if the UK exit the EU there will be nothing to stop the Spanish just walking in,Gib is not an island or they could just brick up the border.Ceuta and the other enclave are in Africa.

[nontabury]

34 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Interesting that you make the prospect of a no-deal Brexit and WTO rules seem so effortless, you'd wonder what all the fuss was about? That is a red flag in itself.

 

Your standard solution is that the UK adjusts tariffs and regulations for EU imports to overcome any disadvantage? That would preserve frictionless imports? 

 

The UK could indeed scrap/lower tariffs and regulations from the EU and accept all products imported from the EU without checks. However, under WTO rules the UK would have to extend this approach to products to all WTO members. So for example, food products would be allowed in on low tariffs without checks, frictionless so to speak. This would not only be damaging to UK farmers and the food industry, it would also threaten food quality and safety standards. Imposing low or no tariffs with the EU would risk driving some UK producers out of business. Many of them would be SME's, who you claim are not affected by any of this. In some industries SME's could be badly damaged.

 

But what about exports? The EU charges a range of tariffs on exports, for example, 21% on food and beverage, 9.6% on fishing and 11% on clothing. Any manufacturer in the UK exporting to the UK would have to absorb these costs. But that's not all. There are also non-tariff barriers, like regulations on product safety, rules or origin and quotas, all of which add considerably to these costs. The EU is still the largest UK export market, with 44% of all UK exports in 2017. A no deal Brexit on WTO terms will devastate that market, there will be reduced EU trade if we go on WTO terms.

 

If WTO terms are so smooth and seamless why then is more than 50% of all trade in the world done under preferential terms, and not WTO terms? The reason is that there are many issues with WTO terms, only some of which I have touched upon here. 

 

The car industry employs over 850,000 people in the UK, with a turnover of $110 billion. Do you think if all they had to do was tweak WTO tariffs and regulations they'd be making a fuss? They have serious concerns about the long term viability of their industry. The SMMT represents SME's that supply the car industry, their CEO stated that "a no deal Brexit could have devastating consequences for the trade" ... but you imply that SME's have nothing to be concerned about? Many SME's in the UK will have negative exposure to a no deal Brexit and WTO terms.

 

Perhaps it's just you personally that won't be affected by it. But many thousands of others will be. 

 

Exports have done well since the currency tanked but it has not been sufficient to compensate for the rest of the factors that make up GDP. Our growth rate in GDP has gone from the highest in the G7 to the lowest, and is now slightly above Italy, hardly something to write home about. Business investment has grown by 2% since the referendum, prior to that the Bank of England had expected it to be 13%. So whatever way you look at it better export performance does not plug the gap. 

 

A no deal Brexit and WTO terms is the worst of all outcomes. Even our trade with the US will be affected ... as we have more than 20 bilateral agreements through the EU, so even with the US we don't just rely on WTO rules. Those agreements will no longer apply.

 

I could go on ... I won't.

 

 

Imports from the rest of the world would still have to pass the U.K's stringent rules. there would be no need to relax our controls. The same rules would also apply to imports from tne E.U.

The main difference,is that we could help underdeveloped countries such as those in Africa, sell their products to us at a lower rate,then those imposed by the Bureaucrats in Brussels. 

[AlexRich]

9 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Imports from the rest of the world would still have to pass the U.K's stringent rules. there would be no need to relax our controls. The same rules would also apply to imports from tne E.U.

The main difference,is that we could help underdeveloped countries such as those in Africa, sell their products to us at a lower rate,then those imposed by the Bureaucrats in Brussels. 

 

Which makes frictionless imports impossible. And whatever terms you tweak it applies to all.

[adammike]

16 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Imports from the rest of the world would still have to pass the U.K's stringent rules. there would be no need to relax our controls. The same rules would also apply to imports from tne E.U.

The main difference,is that we could help underdeveloped countries such as those in Africa, sell their products to us at a lower rate,then those imposed by the Bureaucrats in Brussels. 

A bonfire of the regulations we wos told leading up to the referendum,now it's about keeping all the hated EU regulations,now you say they are UK stringent rules! Who is telling porkies here.

[beautifulthailand99]

18 hours ago, kwilco said:

Lest we forget....

 

And Nigel Lawson has got his French one so he can continue to support Brexit from his lovely French chateau. Orwell was spot on about the proles and how malleable they are by the ruling class to further their own agendas. Sadly they march off to war proudly to be slaughtered in their millions under the flag when called to do so.  Brexit is / will hurt them the most and still they keep cheering the empty phrases whilst casting a malevolent gaze at their fellow hard working neighbours who are just getting on with life. Nationalism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. I'm proud to be British , European and a citizen of the world. I don't get my kicks through chaos and half-baked internet memes propagated by a right wing agenda to strip away the welfare state won at great cost by my father's generation - Brexit is their chance to re-arrange the deckchairs on the titanic and make themselves hugely wealthy in the process. Some of the expats in Thailand has mistaken crawling as an act of loyalty rather than craven cap-doffing and misguided patriotism it is. There is no Brexit plan , just jump off a cliff and see where we go egged on by a small cadre of chinless wonders. 

 

 

[Chelseafan]

9 hours ago, nontabury said:

I did watch a couple of Interveiws with University students, who were adamant that should we exit the E.u. that would automatically curtail their ability to go on holiday to Europe.

 

Likewise we’ve had all these scare stories, that planes would not be able to fly between The U.K. and Europe.

 Well not so according to the Swedish born  CEO of Easyjet. Who within the last 30mins has come out and stated on BBC news. That he is 100% that eventually will never occur.

Would be interesting to see that happen especially as Heathrow is one of the biggest hubs in Europe particularly for the Americans.

You may say that they will bypass the UK and fly into CDG or Schipol but there is only so much landing space around.

 

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

 

The UK could indeed scrap/lower tariffs and regulations from the EU and accept all products imported from the EU without checks. However, under WTO rules the UK would have to extend this approach to products to all WTO members.

More project fear. We will get our own WTO rules. Once we are free from the shackles of the Brusselaucrats, our great kingdom will be back to its past greatness and the WTO surely doesn’t want to lose us as a trading member.  Imagine how much trade they would lose if we left the WTO. They will be desperate to offer us our own tailored rules. Easiest deal in history you will see. 

Worst case, we can always threaten with a referendum. They know we are not kidding. Then it’s WTOexit, and once we took back control and are free from the shackles of those trade bureaucrats, we can do our own trade organization with our own rules. Of course, a remoaner cannot see all these endless possibilities. But with enough phantasy comes opportunity. 

[AlexRich]

3 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

More project fear. We will get our own WTO rules. Once we are free from the shackles of the Brusselaucrats, our great kingdom will be back to its past greatness and the WTO surely doesn’t want to lose us as a trading member.  Imagine how much trade they would lose if we left the WTO. They will be desperate to offer us our own tailored rules. Easiest deal in history you will see. 

Worst case, we can always threaten with a referendum. They know we are not kidding. Then it’s WTOexit, and once we took back control and are free from the shackles of those trade bureaucrats, we can do our own trade organization with our own rules. Of course, a remoaner cannot see all these endless possibilities. But with enough phantasy comes opportunity. 

 

Your ERG membership invitation is in the post; you Sir are made of the right stuff. ????

Edited November 20, 2018 by AlexRich

[nontabury]

17 minutes ago, Chelseafan said:

Would be interesting to see that happen especially as Heathrow is one of the biggest hubs in Europe particularly for the Americans.

You may say that they will bypass the UK and fly into CDG or Schipol but there is only so much landing space around.

 

 

It’s all part of project fear. The big question is, will some members of the public,be so gullible to beleive it. Probably so, as the remainers control all the media.

[adammike]

54 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

And Nigel Lawson has got his French one so he can continue to support Brexit from his lovely French chateau. Orwell was spot on about the proles and how malleable they are by the ruling class to further their own agendas. Sadly they march off to war proudly to be slaughtered in their millions under the flag when called to do so.  Brexit is / will hurt them the most and still they keep cheering the empty phrases whilst casting a malevolent gaze at their fellow hard working neighbours who are just getting on with life. Nationalism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. I'm proud to be British , European and a citizen of the world. I don't get my kicks through chaos and half-baked internet memes propagated by a right wing agenda to strip away the welfare state won at great cost by my father's generation - Brexit is their chance to re-arrange the deckchairs on the titanic and make themselves hugely wealthy in the process. Some of the expats in Thailand has mistaken crawling as an act of loyalty rather than craven cap-doffing and misguided patriotism it is. There is no Brexit plan , just jump off a cliff and see where we go egged on by a small cadre of chinless wonders. 

 

 

On the radio today somebody made the point that when a Thai or Moroccan moves to the UK they become immigrants but when a white European moves to Thailand he becomes an expat.explain that please.

[Chelseafan]

28 minutes ago, adammike said:

On the radio today somebody made the point that when a Thai or Moroccan moves to the UK they become immigrants but when a white European moves to Thailand he becomes an expat.explain that please.

In principal I would think the words are interchangeable however the connotation would be that an immigrant wouldn't be able to support themselves without state help. An Ex-Pat typically has the funds to support his or her self. That's how I see it anyhow.

 

Thinking about this more, its about location. Sitting here in London I wouldn't consider someone who moved to Thailand as an immigrant (if anything they would be an emigrant) however someone coming into the country would be considered an immigrant. But then thinking further, I wouldn't consider someone from France as an immigrant....Hmmmmm.

 

I'll stick to my original belief ????

 

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Chelseafan

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, Chelseafan said:

Would be interesting to see that happen especially as Heathrow is one of the biggest hubs in Europe particularly for the Americans.

You may say that they will bypass the UK and fly into CDG or Schipol but there is only so much landing space around.

 

 

think maybe you did not quite get the point

 

the idea is that day after hard  Brexit the whole regulatory framework making UK airports cleared for flights to/from  EU

and UK airlines cleared for flights to/from EU does not anymore exist

(flights US-UK is another issue after Brexit)

hence, no flights by UK airlines in EU anymore

          no flights between UK airports and EU anymore

 

those would be the legal consequences of a no deal Brexit,

doubt very much that such would be enforced though

why? E U has a reputation to take care of, stopping of flights overnight would just not be understood by the rest of the world

EU would lose big time doing this

 

[Chelseafan]

1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said:

think maybe you did not quite get the point

 

the idea is that day after hard  Brexit the whole regulatory framework making UK airports cleared for flights to/from  EU

and UK airlines cleared for flights to/from EU does not anymore exist

(flights US-UK is another issue after Brexit)

hence, no flights by UK airlines in EU anymore

          no flights between UK airports and EU anymore

 

those would be the legal consequences of a no deal Brexit,

doubt very much that such would be enforced though

why? E U has a reputation to take care of, stopping of flights overnight would just not be understood by the rest of the world

EU would lose big time doing this

 

I did understand the point but as you said it wouldn't happen and its more to do with that flights going out to Europe also come in from Europe. They would be shooting themselves in the foot and be under incredible pressure by the airlines. If the EU could use this as leverage, I'm sure they would.

 

[melvinmelvin]

5 minutes ago, Chelseafan said:

I did understand the point but as you said it wouldn't happen and its more to do with that flights going out to Europe also come in from Europe. They would be shooting themselves in the foot and be under incredible pressure by the airlines. If the EU could use this as leverage, I'm sure they would.

 

right,

but there is another loose cannon here that I forgot to mention

insurance

what would be the stance of the insurance companies

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

think maybe you did not quite get the point

 

the idea is that day after hard  Brexit the whole regulatory framework making UK airports cleared for flights to/from  EU

and UK airlines cleared for flights to/from EU does not anymore exist

(flights US-UK is another issue after Brexit)

hence, no flights by UK airlines in EU anymore

          no flights between UK airports and EU anymore

 

those would be the legal consequences of a no deal Brexit,

doubt very much that such would be enforced though

why? E U has a reputation to take care of, stopping of flights overnight would just not be understood by the rest of the world

EU would lose big time doing this

 

True, plus I don’t think the Spanish and Greek tourist industry would be too happy, especially with their youth unemployment rate being so high.

 What I cannot understand, is why the two British negotiators ????May and Robbins failed to take this and other weaknesses on the E.u side into consideration.

[kwilco]

15 hours ago, transam said:

So the foreigners in the UK ain't milking the NHS, not a burden....Good grief....????

No they are not! This is yet another untruth that was swallowed by those who voted for Brexit.

It is so sad that people can be so ill-informed and gullible

[kwilco]

29 minutes ago, nontabury said:

True, plus I don’t think the Spanish and Greek tourist industry would be too happy, especially with their youth unemployment rate being so high.

 What I cannot understand, is why the two British negotiators ????May and Robbins failed to take this and other weaknesses on the E.u side into consideration.

They didn't...again tourists to places like Greece come from all over the other 25 countries.

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

think maybe you did not quite get the point

 

the idea is that day after hard  Brexit the whole regulatory framework making UK airports cleared for flights to/from  EU

and UK airlines cleared for flights to/from EU does not anymore exist

(flights US-UK is another issue after Brexit)

hence, no flights by UK airlines in EU anymore

          no flights between UK airports and EU anymore

 

those would be the legal consequences of a no deal Brexit,

doubt very much that such would be enforced though

why? E U has a reputation to take care of, stopping of flights overnight would just not be understood by the rest of the world

EU would lose big time doing this

 

With no laws or regulations in place the fights have to stop....period.

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, nontabury said:

It’s all part of project fear. The big question is, will some members of the public,be so gullible to beleive it. Probably so, as the remainers control all the media.

It's straight forward international aviation law...nothing to do with any project fear. If you are no longer a signatory to EU flight regs, you can't fly.

[talahtnut]

9 hours ago, Grouse said:

Because Farage will retain freedom of movement he doesn't give a damn about everybody else. I'm alright jack.

 

As you know I have already sorted out my own situation but it is a tragedy for others

 

Can you really not see that?

That's interesting, let me get this straight, you have

attempted to subvert a democratic vote for your own

convenience, isn't that a case of, 'I prefer to be alright

Jack, sod the majority'.

Surprisingly ungentlemanly behavior from the Grouse

we love.

Grouse on Laocow?

[talahtnut]

27 minutes ago, kwilco said:

It's straight forward international aviation law...nothing to do with any project fear. If you are no longer a signatory to EU flight regs, you can't fly.

I'd sign that if there was more legroom in cattleclass.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, talahtnut said:

That's interesting, let me get this straight, you have

attempted to subvert a democratic vote for your own

convenience, isn't that a case of, 'I prefer to be alright

Jack, sod the majority'.

Surprisingly ungentlemanly behavior from the Grouse

we love.

Grouse on Laocow?

You'll need to explain that please