UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[melvinmelvin]

14 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Remainers concerns are derived from looking at the evidence and drawing conclusions....would appear that Brexiteers can't do this preferring to base their dogma on wishful thinking, baseless predictions (OK, maybe tea leaves) and labelling anything they don't like the sound of as "project fear" (I guess because it makes them frightened?)

 

Her are a few examples of Brexiteers reading their tea leaves.......

 

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1065648448362434560.html?fbclid=IwAR0CRtqvm0v7Vz_NJy8Z0zbpsWimPrlVfGC7ELFsNIoZ5tqzDQjkr5ad1wA

 

 

Should TM get the sack that link contains a list of names not suitable for taking on her job.

 

[melvinmelvin]

tebee

 

what does Le Monde say about this deal?

 

Grouse, El Pais?

 

German mega rags anybody?

 

[rixalex]

 
Instead of the usual whingeing that you are not getting "a fully committed Brexit," perhaps for once you or rixalex, who you quoted, or any other Brexiteer can actually define exactly what you mean by "a fully committed Brexit" and how that would benefit the UK?
 
 
 

Usual whingeing? That seems a bit rich considering the direction most of the whingeing has come from on this thread.

A fully committed Brexit would have been one in which, in the matter of an exit deal, we maximized our position to get the best deal for our country. No, I don't mean going in banging fists on tables making demands, I mean simply calmly telling the EU from day one that we were preparing for a no deal Brexit and that is what would happen unless we were to get a better offer. Let the EU come up with something. Put the onus on them. After all, it potentially affects them almost as much as it does us. But instead it's been us running around like headless chickens trying to offer something that will please them. Most of the time has been spent bickering amongst ourselves. We should have known from the start (or at least the politicians should have) that a deal that pleased all of the electorate and pleased the EU was never achievable. All we have ended up with as a result is the worst of all worlds.

Remainers of course like it as they think it proves Brexit is impossible as they have said all along, and gives them hope that it will all be scrapped. They see victory in sight. If it does come I think remainers are in for a shock though at just what troubled times lay ahead for Britain. Reuniting with the EU and trying to reunite as a country could prove far more challenging than a no deal Brexit ever would have done.

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[talahtnut]

43 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

If Brexit is finished, then so is democracy’

I think if there were a second referendum, Leave would probably win it. Assuming the campaign was a reasonable one and the question was fair. But we can’t assume either of those things.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2018/11/23/if-brexit-is-finished-then-so-is-democracy/

I think the same, R2 would give the government the moral

opportunity to remain.  In the run up to R2 we can expect

government propaganda and lies with both barrels.

Government statistics and the news media, BS.

The great social engineering dominance of corporate UK.

[melvinmelvin]

17 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Usual whingeing? That seems a bit rich considering the direction most of the whingeing has come from on this thread.

A fully committed Brexit would have been one in which, in the matter of an exit deal, we maximized our position to get the best deal for our country. No, I don't mean going in banging fists on tables making demands, I mean simply calmly telling the EU from day one that we were preparing for a no deal Brexit and that is what would happen unless we were to get a better offer. Let the EU come up with something. Put the onus on them. After all, it potentially affects them almost as much as it does us. But instead it's been us running around like headless chickens trying to offer something that will please them. Most of the time has been spent bickering amongst ourselves. We should have known from the start (or at least the politicians should have) that a deal that pleased all of the electorate and pleased the EU was never achievable. All we have ended up with as a result is the worst of all worlds.

Remainers of course like it as they think it proves Brexit is impossible as they have said all along, and gives them hope that it will all be scrapped. They see victory in sight. If it does come I think remainers are in for a shock though at just what troubled times lay ahead for Britain. Reuniting with the EU and trying to reunite as a country could prove far more challenging than a no deal Brexit ever would have done.

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you may be right in what you say,

but do you see sufficient political support in parliament for shooting down the deal

and go for no-deal-Brexit?

 

libdem - no

dup - no

snp - no

labour - no

large fraction of tory - no

large fraction of tory - yes

ukip in the corridor - yes

 

 

 

 

[whatsupdoc]

A nice summary of what the UK did wrong in the negotiations:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/24/eu-wont-miss-britain-after-brexit

[Henryford]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

If Brexit is finished, then so is democracy’

I think if there were a second referendum, Leave would probably win it. Assuming the campaign was a reasonable one and the question was fair. But we can’t assume either of those things.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2018/11/23/if-brexit-is-finished-then-so-is-democracy/

Even if Remain won by say 52/48, does this beat the first referendum? Or is it best out of 3?

[Srikcir]

13 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

A nice summary of what the UK did wrong in the negotiations:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/24/eu-wont-miss-britain-after-brexit

Or conversely what the EU did right:

"EU solidarity matters, and it works."

Spain who had issues with UK's Gibraltar now supports the final EU-Brexit agreement.

So much for the hoped collapse of the EU.

[rixalex]

24 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

you may be right in what you say,

but do you see sufficient political support in parliament for shooting down the deal

and go for no-deal-Brexit?

 

libdem - no

dup - no

snp - no

labour - no

large fraction of tory - no

large fraction of tory - yes

ukip in the corridor - yes

 

 

 

 

No you're right, there isn't political support in parliament for a no deal Brexit but in truth there hasn't been support for any kind of Brexit really. Parliament has been acting against its wishes from day one on this.

[melvinmelvin]

10 minutes ago, rixalex said:

No you're right, there isn't political support in parliament for a no deal Brexit but in truth there hasn't been support for any kind of Brexit really. Parliament has been acting against its wishes from day one on this.

yes, that is probably right

 

I wonder, a vote on the deal is of quite significant importance to UK, one way or the other.

 

I guess there would be a fair number of Brexit supporters in Labour, and some in SNP and

the odd one in DUP/LibDem.

 

Would the parties be very keen on using Whips in order to keep MPs to the party policy

or would they be left free to vote following their inner voice or constituency?

 

 

 

[tebee]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

tebee

 

what does Le Monde say about this deal?

 

Grouse, El Pais?

 

German mega rags anybody?

 

Brexit is not a big deal in Le monde. (or most of the rest of European press)

 

Mostly  is about the value of European Unity in face of British disunity - oh and how May caved in over Gibraltar.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, vinny41 said:

This is based on government analysis of 3 hypothetical deals, which explicitly can’t be used as economic forecasts and are very uncertain. According to the analysis GDP will continue to grow over the next fifteen years in each case, but more slowly than on existing OBR projections. Fullfact

Basically FullFact is saying this is incorrect misleading and wrong

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-image-brexit-costs-wrong/

Kwilco you school report must have stated Must try harder and do you research before posting

 

Claim

Options for post-Brexit trade deals with the EU will lead to between 700,000 and 2,800,000 fewer jobs.

Conclusion There is no evidence for this in the report cited by the claimant, nor elsewhere.

The government MUST have the statistics, the projections. Where are they? Why have they not been published? 

[tebee]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

tebee

 

what does Le Monde say about this deal?

 

Grouse, El Pais?

 

German mega rags anybody?

 

Wow - now Gibraltar gets thrown under the brexit bus - Spain gets possibility of shared sovereignty.

 

Is no cow too sacred to slaughter on the altar of Brexit? So taking back control means giving everybody else everything they have always wanted in exchange for brexit???

 

 

 

[tebee]

Theresa May’s Brexit deal is a worse outcome for Britain than a government led by Jeremy Corbyn, Arlene Foster says today.

 

 https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/party-members-were-expected-to-turn-on-the-prime-minister-yet-many-who-dislike-her-deal-respect-her-spirit-dslnx6hb6

 

Asked if Mrs May’s Brexit is a greater threat than a government led by Mr Corbyn, who has refused to condemn the IRA, Mrs Foster says: “I think it is and the reason I say that is on day one of us leaving the European Union there would be no difference, we would be exactly the same as the rest of the UK but in year five or ten we would be different. If people are looking to Dublin for representation in Europe because we’re the subject of EU rules that is so dangerous in terms of the Union . . . All the things we build the Union on — the economic unit, the cultural, social, political and historical start to diverge.”

[transam]

8 minutes ago, tebee said:

Theresa May’s Brexit deal is a worse outcome for Britain than a government led by Jeremy Corbyn, Arlene Foster says today.

 

 https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/party-members-were-expected-to-turn-on-the-prime-minister-yet-many-who-dislike-her-deal-respect-her-spirit-dslnx6hb6

 

Asked if Mrs May’s Brexit is a greater threat than a government led by Mr Corbyn, who has refused to condemn the IRA, Mrs Foster says: “I think it is and the reason I say that is on day one of us leaving the European Union there would be no difference, we would be exactly the same as the rest of the UK but in year five or ten we would be different. If people are looking to Dublin for representation in Europe because we’re the subject of EU rules that is so dangerous in terms of the Union . . . All the things we build the Union on — the economic unit, the cultural, social, political and historical start to diverge.”

And you should stop worrying about us Brits who have no personal interests in across the channel...Stay cool, enjoy your thing, kebabs soon in abundance on their way...????

Edited November 25, 2018 by transam

[tebee]

  

This is a slightly premature review of negotiations over Brexit. The body's not cold yet and we're not quite there. But either way I strongly feel we'll look back on this period and realise with regret how over half the country turned its back on Europe. It's truly a tragedy in our modern history rapidly unfolding.

 

Don't dress this up as anything other. Leavers fundamentally do not see themselves as European. For many of the 52% it's practically hatred. Irrational bigotry. And when they've detected the benefits of EU membership stall or demand further commitment we've turned away. But will they eventually realise their folly? Not likely.

 

I'm not rich by any stretch. On the contrary quite frankly. But our family have truly felt enriched by travelling, working and realising the close integration with the many European nations. Of course that can continue post March 2019. But my point is this BRexit malarkey is hardly just about a bloomin' trade deal, because we have an excellent one now. And in all honesty about to ludicrously chuck it into the nearest bin. It's far more about how we see ourselves as a people since WW2 and beyond 2018. Selfish ulterior motives over BRexit will destroy our hard fought standing across the globe. Not just within western Europe. Yet all British will be sadly branded by this exercise in nationalistic temper we're playing out now ..

 

And so to say I'm disappointed in BRexit misses the point. It's more the stunning lack of leadership within our country, it's seeming change in personality and by those who should know better, in passing on what's good about our current relationship with the EU. And Europe.
 

[melvinmelvin]

19 minutes ago, tebee said:

Wow - now Gibraltar gets thrown under the brexit bus - Spain gets possibility of shared sovereignty.

 

Is no cow too sacred to slaughter on the altar of Brexit? So taking back control means giving everybody else everything they have always wanted in exchange for brexit???

 

 

 

 

it is not the Brexit altar - it is the my-deal altar

 

[rixalex]

Of course, the average Brexiteer couldn't give a damn about you and the other 1.3 million.

How do you know that?

Maybe it's the case that leavers want the best for those 1 million or so people, but not at the expense of the other 60 plus million, actually living in the country.

Don't you think that in terms of where priorities lie, it should be with the far greater number of citizens who live in Britain, than those who live elsewhere, and isn't it possibly a little unfair on those living at home if they should have to suffer in any way for the sake of the 1 million?


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[Grouse]

14 minutes ago, tebee said:

Wow - now Gibraltar gets thrown under the brexit bus - Spain gets possibility of shared sovereignty.

 

Is no cow too sacred to slaughter on the altar of Brexit? So taking back control means giving everybody else everything they have always wanted in exchange for brexit???

 

 

 

Many of the staunch Brexiters here are former military men

 

It would be interesting to know what they think about selling out Gib?

 

Falklands next for sure 

 

Savings on Defence budget?

[tebee]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

And you should stop worrying about us Brits who have no personal interests in across the channel...Stay cool, enjoy your thing, kebabs soon in abundance on their way...????

Hey I'm sitting here awake at 4 am after my wife called me up panicking about something and nothing - Got to worry about something other than my lack of sleep...

[Grouse]

30 minutes ago, tebee said:

Wow - now Gibraltar gets thrown under the brexit bus - Spain gets possibility of shared sovereignty.

 

Is no cow too sacred to slaughter on the altar of Brexit? So taking back control means giving everybody else everything they have always wanted in exchange for brexit???

 

 

 

Many of the staunch Brexiters here are former military men

 

It would be interesting to know what they think about selling out Gib?

 

Falklands next for sure 

 

Savings on Defence budget?

[transam]

9 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Many of the staunch Brexiters here are former military men

 

It would be interesting to know what they think about selling out Gib?

 

Falklands next for sure 

 

Savings on Defence budget?

What a load of rolox...More nonsense assumptions...As usual...????

[melvinmelvin]

19 minutes ago, tebee said:

Theresa May’s Brexit deal is a worse outcome for Britain than a government led by Jeremy Corbyn, Arlene Foster says today.

 

 https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/party-members-were-expected-to-turn-on-the-prime-minister-yet-many-who-dislike-her-deal-respect-her-spirit-dslnx6hb6

 

Asked if Mrs May’s Brexit is a greater threat than a government led by Mr Corbyn, who has refused to condemn the IRA, Mrs Foster says: “I think it is and the reason I say that is on day one of us leaving the European Union there would be no difference, we would be exactly the same as the rest of the UK but in year five or ten we would be different. If people are looking to Dublin for representation in Europe because we’re the subject of EU rules that is so dangerous in terms of the Union . . . All the things we build the Union on — the economic unit, the cultural, social, political and historical start to diverge.”

she has nothing to complain about - she and her DUPs are part of the problem

 

first parliament accepts without comment that an announced remainer takes charge of  the whole  Brexit process

it has been pretty clear for a long time that the process is not going well

and that the show is entirely run by EU

 

she and her DUPs and the rest of the parliament has all the power there is in UK,

but they collectively opt to say nothing and do nothing

 

som naam na

 

 

[Grouse]

41 minutes ago, tebee said:

Wow - now Gibraltar gets thrown under the brexit bus - Spain gets possibility of shared sovereignty.

 

Is no cow too sacred to slaughter on the altar of Brexit? So taking back control means giving everybody else everything they have always wanted in exchange for brexit???

 

 

 

Many of the staunch Brexiters here are former military men

 

It would be interesting to know what they think about selling out Gib?

 

Falklands next for sure 

 

Savings on Defence budget?

[Grouse]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/military-rifle-ban-plan-dropped-backbench-tory-dup-revolt-rebellion-a8648926.html

 

Trust the Cons to do what's best?

[tebee]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/military-rifle-ban-plan-dropped-backbench-tory-dup-revolt-rebellion-a8648926.html

 

Trust the Cons to do what's best?

What's best for them.....

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Wow - now Gibraltar gets thrown under the brexit bus - Spain gets possibility of shared sovereignty.

 

Is no cow too sacred to slaughter on the altar of Brexit? So taking back control means giving everybody else everything they have always wanted in exchange for brexit???

 

 

 

 

this is the Gibraltar chieftain's take on the issue

 

https://thegibraltarmagazine.com/statement-by-the-chief-minister/

 

wonder if the Spanish PM shares his views

 

[talahtnut]

50 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The government MUST have the statistics, the projections. Where are they? Why have they not been published? 

The government censors that which upsets their agenda.

The State collaborates with the media to engineer your

opinions.    Simply, market communication..advertising.

I am surprised that, even educated people, have so much

misplaced faith in the State and media.

Ever been sold a pup Grouse?

[transam]

9 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

The government censors that which upsets their agenda.

The State collaborates with the media to engineer your

opinions.    Simply, market communication..advertising.

I am surprised that, even educated people, have so much

misplaced faith in the State and media.

Ever been sold a pup Grouse?

Well I fink perhaps a Rotwailer....????

[SheungWan]

17 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

The government censors that which upsets their agenda.

The State collaborates with the media to engineer your

opinions.    Simply, market communication..advertising.

I am surprised that, even educated people, have so much

misplaced faith in the State and media.

Ever been sold a pup Grouse?

Conspiracy Theory weirdness at its best.