UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[baboon]

34 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I'm all for controlled immigration, long may it continue, it's vital to most countries around the world. But that is NOT what has been happening in the UK in the last 15 years and you know it.

But that is because there has been no will on the UK's part to control it. You can't blame the EU for that...

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Is it impossible for you to make any point succinctly?

 

My point is that immigration from the EU is falling rapidly without compulsion. Probably because of English nastiness

 

The figures are still around 270,000 because of massive non EU migration. Highest in 14 years! You 

 

Just what the Brexiters wanted.

 

Personally I find Europeansmuch closer to our customs and social mores.

 

Happy now?

What isn't succinct about my post? Nothing at all.

I made my point - that the damage has been done over the last 2 decades and that the UK gov. has had NO ability to do anything about it - hence why the mess was allowed to happen against the will of a great many in our society.

Just because its slowly easing up now to what would still be seen as very high levels in ANY period prior to c.2000 (and is being replaced by people largely from the 3rd world as you point out) - isn't a cause to celebrate.

 

Maybe you don't feel the same way as me about EU immigration, I don't know. I do, however, agree with you that European immigration (in larger amounts / without control) is preferable to that from other areas of the world. We share a lot more in common with most Europeans and the ability of those Europeans to integrate into UK society is that much easier than it is for (most) peoples from elsewhere . 

 

My point was and remains, we should be able to control something as fundamentally important to the state of the country as immigration clearly is. If we were properly sovereign we could of course. 

[Grouse]

37 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Which part of it is 'tosh' then, Grouse. You're something of an expert in that area, so I think you're the authority here....please enlighten me.

 

So, it sounds like you're trying to deny that there's been a huge wave of immigration in the last 20 years. Are you? The majority of it coming from EU member states, especially between 2000 and 2010. I am well aware that 2018 represents the lowest (EU nationals) immigration level for 4 years, not 6. But what is your point? Are you even sure you have one?

The UK 'has lost it's allure' for many EU citizens, as the BBC put it. I wonder why????? In any case the gradual slow down of EU immigration from a mighty torrent to more of a river, is a step in the right direction, but it doesn't erase the previous decade and more and the damage done/rate of change in that time.

 

We simply need to change our immigration policy across the board, that much is clear, with a focus on skilled workers / introduction of a points based system for a number of years, perhaps. Medical staff/engineers, business people and specialists in a number of areas should be welcomed (with equal treatment for immigrants from within the EU and outside it),  unskilled labour and 'trade' en-masse should definitely not be, anymore. The government cannot and never could control immigration (with regard to EU citizens) whilst remaining part of the SM, this is a well known fact.

 

I'm all for controlled immigration, long may it continue, it's vital to most countries around the world. But that is NOT what has been happening in the UK in the last 15 years and you know it.

The UK has simply had too much of it for too long and hasn't been able to control a great deal of it, this is the problem and it's a perfectly legitimate grievance that many people, quite understandably, have. 

100,000s to 10,000s is still the government's promise, but still, it's nowhere near those figures. 2017 net migration (for both EU and non-EU migrants) was 282,000! This is a nonsense.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/29/eu-net-migration-uk-falls-lowest-level-almost-six-years

 

Net fall of net total immigration is about 4% due to massive increase in non EU immigration

 

If you double down on tosh is it tosh squared or double tosh?

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

What isn't succinct about my post? Nothing at all.

I made my point - that the damage has been done over the last 2 decades and that the UK gov. has had NO ability to do anything about it - hence why the mess was allowed to happen against the will of a great many in our society.

Just because its slowly easing up now to what would still be seen as very high levels in ANY period prior to c.2000 (and is being replaced by people largely from the 3rd world as you point out) - isn't a cause to celebrate.

 

Maybe you don't feel the same way as me about EU immigration, I don't know. I do, however, agree with you that European immigration (in larger amounts / without control) is preferable to that from other areas of the world. We share a lot more in common with most Europeans and the ability of those Europeans to integrate into UK society is that much easier than it is for (most) peoples from elsewhere . 

 

My point was and remains, we should be able to control something as fundamentally important to the state of the country as immigration clearly is. If we were properly sovereign we could of course. 

But we don't use thecontrol levers available to us! We could have really clamped down on non EU immigration.

 

Dont push me further on this as I may obliged to wheel out the dumb word ????

[melvinmelvin]

7 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

just saw in Swedish MSM dn.se

 

that immigration from EU to the UK is going down quite a  lot,

it is now at its nadir over the past 6-7 years

 

however, overall immigration numbers are fairly stable, Asians making up for the loss in Europeans

 

Why?

* uncertainty about the status of EU citizens in the UK after Brexit

* ain't no fun being paid in pound sterling anymore

 

 

above, my bit on immigration

 

when it comes to high temp issues I am  quite comfortable  picking up info

from Scandinavian MSM, by and large they are less worked up than UK rags

 

 

[transam]

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/29/eu-net-migration-uk-falls-lowest-level-almost-six-years

 

Net fall of net total immigration is about 4% due to massive increase in non EU immigration

 

If you double down on tosh is it tosh squared or double tosh?

Is that cos they can't find a job or sign on...?

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

15 minutes ago, Grouse said:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/29/eu-net-migration-uk-falls-lowest-level-almost-six-years

 

Net fall of net total immigration is about 4% due to massive increase in non EU immigration

 

If you double down on tosh is it tosh squared or double tosh?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44846002

 

Lowest (for EU citizens) in 4 years, states the ONS. I never disbelieved or challenged you re: the figure of non EU citizens immigrating, either. So ease up with this 'doubling down' stuff, Famous.

 

I've read the same government / state agency figures as you have, because I too can read and own a computer! You seem to think you're telling everyone something they don't already know. 

You do neglect to counter any of my arguments however. Re: damage done over the last 20 years or the expedience of the ability to control our own borders.

Edited November 30, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[baboon]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

Is that cos they can't find a job or sign on...?

Don't make jokes about the unemployed. They don't work...

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

20 minutes ago, baboon said:

But that is because there has been no will on the UK's part to control it. You can't blame the EU for that...

Just to be clear, I very much blame the UK gov and it's successive useless HSs just as much as the EU. May being a fine example - utter waste of space. Working in collusion then, as she is now.

 

However, it is a bit like criticising a prisoner for being too apathetic regarding their escape.  The government didn't particularly want to do anything about the problem, that's for sure - New Labour invited the 'opportunity' as they saw it, after all. The point is, EVEN IF any UK government had actually wanted to slow or control the flood of immigration experienced in the years I mention, they COULDN'T! It is fundamentally impossible - as the EU has clearly stated. If you're part of the SM then you are OPEN to freedom of movement - of 500m people - and it's as simple as that.

Edited November 30, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[billd766]

8 hours ago, vinny41 said:

The Bank of England’s Brexit forecasts aren’t just wrong. They’re absurd

https://capx.co/the-bank-of-englands-brexit-forecasts-arent-just-wrong-theyre-absurd/

That was an interesting read. Thank you.

[baboon]

1 minute ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Just to be clear, I very much blame the UK gov and it's successive useless HS's just as much as the EU. May being a fine example - utter waste of space.

 

However, it is a bit like criticising a prisoner for being too apathetic.  The government didn't particularly want to do anything about the problem, that's for sure - New Labour invited the 'opportunity' as they saw it, after all. The point is, EVEN IF any UK government had actually wanted to slow or control the flood of immigration experienced in the years I mention, they COULDN'T! It is fundamentally impossible - as the EU has clearly stated. If you're part of the SM then you are OPEN to freedom of movement - of 500m people - and it's as simple as that.

As far as I am aware, other EU countries can and do demand things like obtaining employment within 3-6 months or home you go. We decided to do jack.

And didn't some places stop Eastern European EU citizens coming in for a period of several years? 

 

Perhaps posters with more knowledge than me can yay or nay this....

[SheungWan]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

Hard Translation: Keep the white flag flying.

The Dad's Army Theory of Brexit. 

[SheungWan]

17 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

the expedience of the ability to control our own borders.

Pity that the Hard Brexiteers imaginary borders don't face West. 

[melvinmelvin]

21 minutes ago, baboon said:

As far as I am aware, other EU countries can and do demand things like obtaining employment within 3-6 months or home you go. We decided to do jack.

And didn't some places stop Eastern European EU citizens coming in for a period of several years? 

 

Perhaps posters with more knowledge than me can yay or nay this....

when EU expanded eastwards several countries put a brake on east to west FoM and introduced

a gradual transition arrangement

(Sweden opened up fully from day 1 as far as I remember.)

 

this bit about getting employment within x hours or out I don't think is correct

that would mean it would be risky business to retire in EU

Portugal and Spain could just decide to throw out all retirees since they don't work

 

 

[rixalex]

As far as I am aware, other EU countries can and do demand things like obtaining employment within 3-6 months or home you go. We decided to do jack.

Yes Britain should enforce that sort of rule (and deserves criticism for failing to), but for one, you still have zero control over what job it is that those people do, and for two, are you aware of the complexities involved in "home you go". If only sending people home really was that easy. The truth is, once they are in the country, good luck doing anything about it.


Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Grouse]

56 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44846002

 

Lowest (for EU citizens) in 4 years, states the ONS. I never disbelieved or challenged you re: the figure of non EU citizens immigrating, either. So ease up with this 'doubling down' stuff, Famous.

 

I've read the same government / state agency figures as you have, because I too can read and own a computer! You seem to think you're telling everyone something they don't already know. 

You do neglect to counter any of my arguments however. Re: damage done over the last 20 years or the expedience of the ability to control our own borders.

I post articles because the truffle hunters demand it

 

The immigration issues are ENTIRELY due to our apoarant inability to control our borders properly. Count them in, count them out, keep records of who is working, who is claiming, who is criming 

 

In general, use the levers we have available to us and let our own people live, work and retire anywhere in the EU.

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, rixalex said:

 

Yes Britain should enforce that sort of rule (and deserves criticism for failing to), but for one, you still have zero control over what job it is that those people do, and for two, are you aware of the complexities involved in "home you go". If only sending people home really was that easy. The truth is, once they are in the country, good luck doing anything about it.


Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

We make it difficult for our selves by not properly policing our borders or the workplace. Thailand seems to be far more advanced than the UK in this respect.

[Grouse]

18 hours ago, AlexRich said:

Water and railways for sure, swiftly followed by electricity and gas supply. Then he’ll appropriate 10% of listed companies, ostensibly to give to employees, but not really. When the car companies leave he might also launch Corbynista, the new UK brand of car, using the disused factories. And relaunch Pravda UK, before signing a historic free trade deal with Venezuela.

I favour nationalising the utilities

 

However, Corbyn should keep his hands well clear of industry except for protecting against dumping.

[Grouse]

18 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Vehicles only accounted for 12.1% of UK Exports

Only! ONLY!!!!

 

What share of manufacturing jobs?

 

https://www.smmt.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/SMMT-Motor-Industry-Facts-June-2018.pdf

 

Read all abaatit!

Edited November 30, 2018 by Grouse

[transam]

11 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I favour nationalising the utilities

 

However, Corbyn should keep his hands well clear of industry except for protecting against dumping.

Yes, 8am seems unilateral...????

[transam]

11 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I favour nationalising the utilities

 

However, Corbyn should keep his hands well clear of industry except for protecting against dumping.

Yes, 8am seems unilateral...????

[Grouse]

8 minutes ago, transam said:

Yes, 8am seems unilateral...????

What?

[transam]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

What?

Bowel movement...????

[Grouse]

18 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Once again clearly you don't understand what your talking about as a general rule as history will show you if you bothered to engage your brain instead of spouting rubbish when Sterling is down Stocks Markets are up

UK stock markets soar as sterling slumps

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/investing/article-3838513/Why-falling-pound-helped-shares-soar-cent-sterling-lost-FTSE-flown-higher-higher.html

This has been explained to you before

 

1) repatriating foreign earnings results in higher profits quoted in GDP

 

2) foreign but British owned company valuations increase when quoted in GDP

[melvinmelvin]

41 minutes ago, rixalex said:

 

Yes Britain should enforce that sort of rule (and deserves criticism for failing to), but for one, you still have zero control over what job it is that those people do, and for two, are you aware of the complexities involved in "home you go". If only sending people home really was that easy. The truth is, once they are in the country, good luck doing anything about it.


Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I doubt very much that the UK can as long as they are in the FoM regime.

Must be smth wrong here, some information missing.

 

a consequence of being able to enforce that would be that Span and Portugal could kick out all

UK retirees because they don't work

 

[Grouse]

17 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

well don't know about great idea - but could of course work

 

sceptical to include rolling stock in the exercise though

 

I think the state should avoid Japanese locomotives though.

[adammike]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Which part of it is 'tosh' then, Grouse. You're something of an expert in that area, so I think you're the authority here....please enlighten me.

 

So, it sounds like you're trying to deny that there's been a huge wave of immigration in the last 20 years. Are you? The majority of it coming from EU member states, especially between 2000 and 2010. I am well aware that 2018 represents the lowest (EU nationals) immigration level for 4 years, not 6. But what is your point? Are you even sure you have one?

The UK 'has lost it's allure' for many EU citizens, as the BBC put it. I wonder why????? In any case the gradual slow down of EU immigration from a mighty torrent to more of a river, is a step in the right direction, but it doesn't erase the previous decade and more and the damage done/rate of change in that time.

 

We simply need to change our immigration policy across the board, that much is clear, with a focus on skilled workers / introduction of a points based system for a number of years, perhaps. Medical staff/engineers, business people and specialists in a number of areas should be welcomed (with equal treatment for immigrants from within the EU and outside it),  unskilled labour and 'trade' en-masse should definitely not be, anymore. The government cannot and never could control immigration (with regard to EU citizens) whilst remaining part of the SM, this is a well known fact.

 

I'm all for controlled immigration, long may it continue, it's vital to most countries around the world. But that is NOT what has been happening in the UK in the last 15 years and you know it.

The UK has simply had too much of it for too long and hasn't been able to control a great deal of it, this is the problem and it's a perfectly legitimate grievance that many people, quite understandably, have. 

100,000s to 10,000s is still the government's promise, but still, it's nowhere near those figures. 2017 net migration (for both EU and non-EU migrants) was 282,000! This is a nonsense.

 

Regarding "immigrants" from the EU how many actually arrive in the UK planning to relocate on a permanent basis? How many came because they could earn more because the pound had value and when it lost 20-25% they left and were not replaced? How many came to learn gain experience and to get qualifications in their field and then move somewhere else in the EU or go home?.Anti immigration in my opinion was the single biggest reason that people voted for Brexit and now they are going to get immigrants from Africa and the whole of Asia including the sub continent and that's going to be a lot of people who will want to relocate on a permanent basis and then bring their families to join them,talk about shooting yourself in the foot.You couldn't make it up.

[rixalex]

Regarding "immigrants" from the EU how many actually arrive in the UK planning to relocate on a permanent basis? How many came because they could earn more because the pound had value and when it lost 20-25% they left and were not replaced? How many came to learn gain experience and to get qualifications in their field and then move somewhere else in the EU or go home?.Anti immigration in my opinion was the single biggest reason that people voted for Brexit and now they are going to get immigrants from Africa and the whole of Asia including the sub continent and that's going to be a lot of people who will want to relocate on a permanent basis and then bring their families to join them,talk about shooting yourself in the foot.You couldn't make it up.

Why do you care where immigrants come from? If they are tested to prove they have the skills to do the job they are coming to do, including of course skills like speaking English - assuming that is still the native language? - that should be all that matters.

What you couldn't make up is remainers having spent the last two years calling leavers xenophobic, and then coming out with stuff like this.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

This has been explained to you before

 

1) repatriating foreign earnings results in higher profits quoted in GDP

 

2) foreign but British owned company valuations increase when quoted in GDP

Suggest you read the link article as that is exactly what it said

Around three-quarters of the earnings of FTSE firms come from outside the UK. And when sterling is weak and these profits are converted back into pounds from dollars or euros, they are worth more

 

Many of the blue-chip giants such as HSBC and Shell report their earnings in dollars, and so they also pay their dividends in dollars.

That means shareholders get a boost when their payout is converted back when the pound is weaker.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/investing/article-3838513/Why-falling-pound-helped-shares-soar-cent-sterling-lost-FTSE-flown-higher-higher.html

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Only! ONLY!!!!

 

What share of manufacturing jobs?

 

https://www.smmt.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/SMMT-Motor-Industry-Facts-June-2018.pdf

 

Read all abaatit!

From your own link 12.8% of the UK’s total export goods which means 87.2% of the Uk exports are from non automotive sectors