3 hours ago, baboon said:

The Pound going down the crapper probably has as much to do with it as English nastiness.... 

And Wages have increased in a number of European countries as they are no longer allowed to use North Korean slave labour 

2 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

And Wages have increased in a number of European countries as they are no longer allowed to use North Korean slave labour 

Aye, shocking the way they were treated...

Second Referendum Poll: No Deal Beats Remain

New DeltaPoll research has found that if a second referendum were held, the public would back ‘No Deal’ over ‘Remain’ by 52-48%. And that’s achieved in the absence of a leave campaign, with the public being subjected to a constant torrent of un-combatted Remain campaigning over the last two years. Be careful what you wish for Remainers…

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1068202384650919936

Second Referendum Poll: No Deal Beats Remain

New DeltaPoll research has found that if a second referendum were held, the public would back ‘No Deal’ over ‘Remain’ by 52-48%. And that’s achieved in the absence of a leave campaign, with the public being subjected to a constant torrent of un-combatted Remain campaigning over the last two years. Be careful what you wish for Remainers…

 

40 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Why do you care where immigrants come from? If they are tested to prove they have the skills to do the job they are coming to do, including of course skills like speaking English - assuming that is still the native language? - that should be all that matters.

What you couldn't make up is remainers having spent the last two years calling leavers xenophobic, and then coming out with stuff like this.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

I'm not sure from his post that you can presume that he cares? Those that wanted Brexit because of "immigration" didn't appear to want anyone foreign, particularly if they changed the culture of their local areas ... those vary same people will hate the influx of Africans, Middle-Easterners and Indians, or the people landing on these shores illegally, who are less culturally aligned than Poles and Lithuanians. 

 

17 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Second Referendum Poll: No Deal Beats Remain

New DeltaPoll research has found that if a second referendum were held, the public would back ‘No Deal’ over ‘Remain’ by 52-48%. And that’s achieved in the absence of a leave campaign, with the public being subjected to a constant torrent of un-combatted Remain campaigning over the last two years. Be careful what you wish for Remainers…

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1068202384650919936

 

I'd take it, it would settle the issue. Bring it on.

3 hours ago, rixalex said:

You're welcome. Britain needs immigrants. Brexit isn't about stopping immigrants coming to the country. It's about having a say in who comes in and how many. Non EU immigrants are subject to testing and have to apply for the relevant visa dependent on what they are coming to the country to do. Percentage wise, not so many of non EU immigrants go to Britain to work. If they do, they must obtain a work visa. Show they have a job. Show their relevant skills. This is how ALL immigrants should be treated. Thanks to the EU, that isn't the case. EU immigrants aren't subject to any testing whatsoever. Walk in and do entirely as they please. You say that type of immigration is falling rapidly. Brilliant. You can thank Brexit for that. Now let's keep going. Get it down to zero.

Let's have a say in EVERYONE who comes to the country, not just non EU citizens. Let's make immigration a level playing field. All treated equally.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

4 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

.....

 

We simply need to change our immigration policy across the board, that much is clear, with a focus on skilled workers / introduction of a points based system for a number of years, perhaps. Medical staff/engineers, business people and specialists in a number of areas should be welcomed (with equal treatment for immigrants from within the EU and outside it),  unskilled labour and 'trade' en-masse should definitely not be, anymore. The government cannot and never could control immigration (with regard to EU citizens) whilst remaining part of the SM, this is a well known fact.

 

I'm all for controlled immigration, long may it continue, it's vital to most countries around the world. But that is NOT what has been happening in the UK in the last 15 years and you know it.

The UK has simply had too much of it for too long and hasn't been able to control a great deal of it, this is the problem and it's a perfectly legitimate grievance that many people, quite understandably, have. 

100,000s to 10,000s is still the government's promise, but still, it's nowhere near those figures. 2017 net migration (for both EU and non-EU migrants) was 282,000! This is a nonsense.

 

 

i'm going to put the cat amongst the pigeons here and suggest that controlling immigration by government decree is not a good thing. It's much better to let the free decide.

 

Why ? Firstly because governments are not very at deciding what country or the economy needs  at the time or at reacting to  changes in that need. It's going back to the days of soviet styled planned economies - think about recently when we were refusing visas  to doctors the NHS needed desperately. It was only press criticism of this that got that policy changed, but if your new start-up is desperately short of software developers you are not going to get the same sort public sympathy that will get rules changed.

 

Secondly it imposes extra costs on businesses, not just the cost of the visas, but the costs of employing people to process the paperwork needed, you may lose staff you need if visa processing time becomes extended as they give up and get jobs elsewhere instead. UK has been very successful at attracting inward investment because it has laxer labour labour laws than the rest of Europe, the need for visas will erode this  advantage, even if we do keep tariff free trading with the est of the EU.  

 

Thirdly why does the UK need more skilled than unskilled labour ? Are we reserving all the poorly paid jobs for UK nationals? Or is it more that the UK training and education systems are woefully inadequate? By allowing in skilled labour only are we not perpetuating this  and discouraging local training of people.

 

Fourthly if an industry can not get sufficient unskilled labour locally it will either close down or relocate. Cutting down the supply of unskilled labour won't increase the wages of those people, it will reduce the job opportunities they have.       

2 hours ago, adammike said:

Regarding "immigrants" from the EU how many actually arrive in the UK planning to relocate on a permanent basis? How many came because they could earn more because the pound had value and when it lost 20-25% they left and were not replaced? How many came to learn gain experience and to get qualifications in their field and then move somewhere else in the EU or go home?.Anti immigration in my opinion was the single biggest reason that people voted for Brexit and now they are going to get immigrants from Africa and the whole of Asia including the sub continent and that's going to be a lot of people who will want to relocate on a permanent basis and then bring their families to join them,talk about shooting yourself in the foot.You couldn't make it up.

I don't follow your argument.

 

I haven't shot myself anywhere either, last time I looked.

You're right at least in part, by saying that Brexit was brought about by this issue, among others. But why would the UK government supplant the immigration from the EU with the same problem, but simply from other areas of the world? That seems to be what you're saying. As if having mass immigration is some kind of pre-requisite to the existence of modern Britain. ??? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, don't know. Bad hangover today, doesn't help.

 

What would be a better policy is having immigration of migrants coming from of all parts of the world being equitable, properly recorded and most importantly - reduced. No preferential treatment and no more OPEN borders. Only achievable outside the SM. It should have happened a long time ago of course, 'closing the barn door after the horse has bolted' comes to mind.

  

EU and extra-EU immigration are both happening concurrently and have always been, the fact was that the UK gov. had to reject people from outside of the EU who wanted to work in the country in certain jobs, because those coming from the EU would both (usually) take precedence over non EU nationals and because of their numbers, mean that the amount of available jobs in a multitude of fields was reduced - this has been admitted by ministers in successive governments and their shadow counterparts in the opposition who have stated that once out of the SM we can finally address the issue. Same goes with University places. Haven't even touched on 'refugees' coming to the EU illegally from North and central Africa / M.East who without being processed/screened are allowed to stay, often without any background checks or knowledge of their whereabouts or activity once in Europe.

A proportion of these people do make their way to northern Europe and the UK (along w/ France, Scand, and Germany - their target destination). Even given our location outside Schengen, as a proportion of these people become EU citizens and of course others come in illegally, though admittedly a smaller number. D.Murray makes a compelling case for all this in his book: 'The Strange Death of Europe'.

 

It seems a big part of the problem is that the government is clearly not tackling the immigration issue with enough competence or urgency, and hasn't done for many, many years now.

This is not solely the fault of the EU, that is for sure. However it is/was only exacerbated by the fact that we had and continue to have an open door to nearly half a billion people on the continent who can come to the UK and work/live and after means testing and a pretty short period, become part of the already overwhelmed welfare state, and add an unwelcome strain to the similarly overwhelmed public services and housing crisis. 

I've stated before that I don't blame any individual for coming to the UK to better their circumstance. Many came, worked and left, but many also stayed. It is the damage that mass immigration has done to the labour market & wages that is the big issue and it was poorer communities that were hardest hit. Brexit is in large part about taking the control of borders (sovereignty) back, and reinstalling the ability to treat everyone from every country with the same standards and checks. I am against uncontrolled immigration of people coming from ANYWHERE in the world. It doesn't matter whether it is - EUR, Africa, Asia or the Americas. 

 

The EU is not to blame at the domestic level, that blame can be leveled at ministers/governments, but like we all know, being part of the SM has allowed this issue to snowball and was the cause of mass immigration in the 'noughties' that so badly affected the UK's labour market etc. etc. - as referenced by myself and others many times. Being granted opt outs / concessions on this matter seem to be only pipe-dreams. SM = open door.

 

44 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Second Referendum Poll: No Deal Beats Remain

New DeltaPoll research has found that if a second referendum were held, the public would back ‘No Deal’ over ‘Remain’ by 52-48%. And that’s achieved in the absence of a leave campaign, with the public being subjected to a constant torrent of un-combatted Remain campaigning over the last two years. Be careful what you wish for Remainers…

 

That is an interpretation of the results that is disputed by many. (lies, damn lies and statistics)  The poll asked for preferences of the three possable options. It depends how you try resolve these down to binary option preferences what answer you get !

 

These are the raw results -

 

 
I'm not sure from his post that you can presume that he cares? Those that wanted Brexit because of "immigration" didn't appear to want anyone foreign, particularly if they changed the culture of their local areas ... those vary same people will hate the influx of Africans, Middle-Easterners and Indians, or the people landing on these shores illegally, who are less culturally aligned than Poles and Lithuanians. 
 

Saying that those who wanted Brexit because of immigration didn't appear to want ANYONE foreign is tripe constantly peddled by the remain side, as part of its ongoing effort to paint the opposing side as being small minded and bigoted. It doesn't seem to matter how many times it gets repeated: Brexiteers want immigration CONTROLLED not stopped.

Remainers only hear what they want to hear. "Brexiteers are bigots who want to pull up the drawbridge". It's this constant twisting of people's words to make them out to be something they are not that has driven people further apart in the debate.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

2 hours ago, adammike said:

Regarding "immigrants" from the EU how many actually arrive in the UK planning to relocate on a permanent basis? How many came because they could earn more because the pound had value and when it lost 20-25% they left and were not replaced? How many came to learn gain experience and to get qualifications in their field and then move somewhere else in the EU or go home?.Anti immigration in my opinion was the single biggest reason that people voted for Brexit and now they are going to get immigrants from Africa and the whole of Asia including the sub continent and that's going to be a lot of people who will want to relocate on a permanent basis and then bring their families to join them,talk about shooting yourself in the foot.You couldn't make it up.

Surely such a "Great" ???? nation like the UK shouldnt need to import any skilled workers other than top scientist's yet we cannot even train our own to be nurse's the amount of phillipino,asia and african nurses is very high i never could understand why and a lot of their earnings will be leaving the UK

1 minute ago, rixalex said:

Saying that those who wanted Brexit because of immigration didn't appear to want ANYONE foreign is tripe constantly peddled by the remain side, as part of its ongoing effort to paint the opposing side as being small minded and bigoted. It doesn't seem to matter how many times it gets repeated: Brexiteers want immigration CONTROLLED not stopped.

Remainers only hear what they want to hear. "Brexiteers are bigots who want to pull up the drawbridge". It's this constant twisting of people's words to make them out to be something they are not that has driven people further apart in the debate.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

"Get rid of them immigrants" was the cry from the many Vox Pops that I watched ... from Romford to Boston to Stoke, the same sentiment over and over from countless interviews ... of course the politicians talked about controlled immigration, they are hardly likely to admit to anything else ... we all know what a dog whistle sounds like.

 

13 minutes ago, rixalex said:

 

 

,

53 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

I'm not sure from his post that you can presume that he cares? Those that wanted Brexit because of "immigration" didn't appear to want anyone foreign, particularly if they changed the culture of their local areas ... those vary same people will hate the influx of Africans, Middle-Easterners and Indians, or the people landing on these shores illegally, who are less culturally aligned than Poles and Lithuanians. 

 

That's my point,its ok the brexiteers can have a pop at me it's no skin of my nose I just find it strange that the stats say EU immigrants? down, non EU up at 14 year high and typically they blame the messenger,like I say you couldn't make it up.

24 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Remainers only hear what they want to hear. "Brexiteers are bigots who want to pull up the drawbridge". It's this constant twisting of people's words to make them out to be something they are not that has driven people further apart in the debate.

Spot on.

 

It's beyond aggravating, as it never seems to end.

57 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I don't follow your argument.

 

I haven't shot myself anywhere either, last time I looked.

You're right at least in part, by saying that Brexit was brought about by this issue, among others. But why would the UK government supplant the immigration from the EU with the same problem, but simply from other areas of the world? That seems to be what you're saying. As if having mass immigration is some kind of pre-requisite to the existence of modern Britain. ??? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, don't know. Bad hangover today, doesn't help.

 

What would be a better policy is having immigration of migrants coming from of all parts of the world being equitable, properly recorded and most importantly - reduced. No preferential treatment and no more OPEN borders. Only achievable outside the SM. It should have happened a long time ago of course, 'closing the barn door after the horse has bolted' comes to mind.

  

EU and extra-EU immigration are both happening concurrently and have always been, the fact was that the UK gov. had to reject people from outside of the EU who wanted to work in the country in certain jobs, because those coming from the EU would both (usually) take precedence over non EU nationals and because of their numbers, mean that the amount of available jobs in a multitude of fields was reduced - this has been admitted by ministers in successive governments and their shadow counterparts in the opposition who have stated that once out of the SM we can finally address the issue. Same goes with University places. Haven't even touched on 'refugees' coming to the EU illegally from North and central Africa / M.East who without being processed/screened are allowed to stay, often without any background checks or knowledge of their whereabouts or activity once in Europe.

A proportion of these people do make their way to northern Europe and the UK (along w/ France, Scand, and Germany - their target destination). Even given our location outside Schengen, as a proportion of these people become EU citizens and of course others come in illegally, though admittedly a smaller number. D.Murray makes a compelling case for all this in his book: 'The Strange Death of Europe'.

 

It seems a big part of the problem is that the government is clearly not tackling the immigration issue with enough competence or urgency, and hasn't done for many, many years now.

This is not solely the fault of the EU, that is for sure. However it is/was only exacerbated by the fact that we had and continue to have an open door to nearly half a billion people on the continent who can come to the UK and work/live and after means testing and a pretty short period, become part of the already overwhelmed welfare state, and add an unwelcome strain to the similarly overwhelmed public services and housing crisis. 

I've stated before that I don't blame any individual for coming to the UK to better their circumstance. Many came, worked and left, but many also stayed. It is the damage that mass immigration has done to the labour market & wages that is the big issue and it was poorer communities that were hardest hit. Brexit is in large part about taking the control of borders (sovereignty) back, and reinstalling the ability to treat everyone from every country with the same standards and checks. I am against uncontrolled immigration of people coming from ANYWHERE in the world. It doesn't matter whether it is - EUR, Africa, Asia or the Americas. 

 

The EU is not to blame at the domestic level, that blame can be leveled at ministers/governments, but like we all know, being part of the SM has allowed this issue to snowball and was the cause of mass immigration in the 'noughties' that so badly affected the UK's labour market etc. etc. - as referenced by myself and others many times. Being granted opt outs / concessions on this matter seem to be only pipe-dreams. SM = open door.

 

First I am not having an argument I was only asking the question about how are the brexiteers going to deal with more immigrants from outside Europe when they hate the the ones they already have that come from Europe.seems like a fair question to ask,granted it could be construed as dog whistle politics.You do make a compelling case but I am not sure everything you say is right.

26 minutes ago, adammike said:

First I am not having an argument I was only asking the question about how are the brexiteers going to deal with more immigrants from outside Europe when they hate the the ones they already have that come from Europe.seems like a fair question to ask,granted it could be construed as dog whistle politics.

OK.

 

TBH, I think it's pretty divisive, unhelpful and fundamentally UNTRUE to say that only Brexiteers don't fancy continued mass immigration - especially from more disparate cultures, that are unlikely to ever fully assimilate. Are you saying you'd be in favour of this? You make it sound as though people who are for Brexit are against it (which is in most cases probably true) but that by the same token Remain voters are for it or are impartial - that seems absolutist and rather unlikely to me. I'd also make the comment that - to say 'Brexiteers hate the ones they already have' is totally misrepresenting literally millions of people and pretty damn prejudiced. As though all Brexiteers are National Front recruiters or the like.

 

 If that is the case the UK (with 17.4m of them) would be the one of the most racist countries on earth, when in reality it is possibly the exact opposite. The other unhelpful thing about these sorts of comments (and this is why they're often made) is that by arbitrarily labeling someone a bigot/racist or 'hater' of a certain group you shut down the conversation, or at least attempt to, and in doing so fail to investigate the reasons behind their grievance, because actually, it is often founded and emanates from a legitimate issue, it' isn't simply xenophobia in every case. Brexit never was black and white / racist vs progressive / old vs young or educated vs ignorant, I hate the fact that it is so often misconstrued and misrepresented as being such. That's bo****ks.

 

We have seen in areas of the UK over the past few decades already that there are S.Asian communities, across England particularly, that have gained enough mass and developed enough of a network that some of these people have lived in the country for many years, but do in fact, speak little to no English. That is ridiculous and wholly unacceptable, besides, it doesn't help the local native community or the immigrant one. So if this is already an issue and it's already dividing society, then - why would anyone want to see it continued at an alarming rate? Myself and many others who voted for Brexit (well represented on this forum) are simply for the equitable and controlled immigration of people from every nation on earth. That's it. Seems to be common sense too, but yet many are opposed to it. I find it mind-boggling. 

12 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

"Get rid of them immigrants" was the cry from the many Vox Pops that I watched ... from Romford to Boston to Stoke, the same sentiment over and over from countless interviews ... of course the politicians talked about controlled immigration, they are hardly likely to admit to anything else ... we all know what a dog whistle sounds like.

 

Visited Boston,just two days ago. Very hard to beleive it’s a small Town in the U.K. Due to the fact that English is seldom heard there. Amazed at the number of shops selling European goods. Out of curiosity went inside a small supermarket,about double the size of Foodland in Pattaya or on lower Sukhumvit, Bkk. Out of the hundreds of goods for sale, not one, was British, every item had been imported,be it baked beans,shampoos or orange juice.

Then we went into an even larger European supermarket, size about 50% larger than the supermarket in Siam Paragon,Bkk. Again every item for sale was an imported good. Thus showing that all these Eastern Europeans living in this town, taking jobs,or at least suppressing the local wages, are then in addition to possible sending money home, are spending even more on imported goods. So I’m asking myself how does this unregulated influx of mostly unskilled labour benifit the local economy or even the national economy. 

And then people wonder why, Boston voted heavily for Brexit.

Could it possible be that they’re living on the front line.

 

4 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Visited Boston,just two days ago. Very hard to beleive it’s a small Town in the U.K. Due to the fact that English is seldom heard there. Amazed at the number of shops selling European goods. Out of curiosity went inside a small supermarket,about double the size of Foodland in Pattaya or on lower Sukhumvit, Bkk. Out of the hundreds of goods for sale, not one, was British, every item had been imported,be it baked beans,shampoos or orange juice.

Then we went into an even larger European supermarket, size about 50% larger than the supermarket in Siam Paragon,Bkk. Again every item for sale was an imported good. Thus showing that all these Eastern Europeans living in this town, taking jobs,or at least suppressing the local wages, are then in addition to possible sending money home, are spending even more on imported goods. So I’m asking myself how does this unregulated influx of mostly unskilled labour benifit the local economy or even the national economy. 

And then people wonder why, Boston voted heavily for Brexit.

Could it possible be that they’re living on the front line.

 

Why did they come to Boston? Because they were invited. And why were they invited? Because the employers couldn't get local people to do the work. They pay their taxes and spend money in the local communities ... and that benefits the local community. The objection appeared to be their foreign origin rather than a desire by locals to pick vegetables in the fields, you won't find many young Britons willing to do that work and the older citizens are really not up to it physically. When they leave the economy will wither.  

 

8 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

Hi tebee, pity you didn't show the replies from your tweeted post.????????????

 

 

13 minutes ago, vogie said:

Hi tebee, pity you didn't show the replies from your tweeted post.????????????

 

 

 

 

I just find it sad that there are so many people who don't understand democracy 

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

 

I just find it sad that there are so many people who don't understand democracy 

They think it’s a clock that stops when they get the result they want.

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

 

I just find it sad that there are so many people who don't understand democracy 

And JK rowling should understand she has 1 vote the same as everyone else and her opinion is no more important than anyone else and no less important than anyone else she entitled to her opinion the same as the people that posted on her thread are entitled to theirs 

All men/women are created equal

3 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

They think it’s a clock that stops when they get the result they want.

and i am sure if remain won with 52% of the vote and leave was 48% remainers would have told leavers , you lost accept it the results stand

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

 

I just find it sad that there are so many people who don't understand democracy 

Et tu tebee. You are making democracy what you want it to be and not exactly what it is. How in heavens name can you have a democratic vote and then not act on it, you are in actually fact trying to overturn democracy.

1 hour ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

OK.

 

TBH, I think it's pretty divisive, unhelpful and fundamentally UNTRUE to say that only Brexiteers don't fancy continued mass immigration - especially from more disparate cultures, that are unlikely to ever fully assimilate. Are you saying you'd be in favour of this? You make it sound as though people who are for Brexit are against it (which is in most cases probably true) but that by the same token Remain voters are for it or are impartial - that seems absolutist and rather unlikely to me. I'd also make the comment that - to say 'Brexiteers hate the ones they already have' is totally misrepresenting literally millions of people and pretty damn prejudiced. As though all Brexiteers are National Front recruiters or the like.

 

 If that is the case the UK (with 17.4m of them) would be the one of the most racist countries on earth, when in reality it is possibly the exact opposite. The other unhelpful thing about these sorts of comments (and this is why they're often made) is that by arbitrarily labeling someone a bigot/racist or 'hater' of a certain group you shut down the conversation, or at least attempt to, and in doing so fail to investigate the reasons behind their grievance, because actually, it is often founded and emanates from a legitimate issue, it' isn't simply xenophobia in every case. Brexit never was black and white / racist vs progressive / old vs young or educated vs ignorant, I hate the fact that it is so often misconstrued and misrepresented as being such. That's bo****ks.

 

We have seen in areas of the UK over the past few decades already that there are S.Asian communities, across England particularly, that have gained enough mass and developed enough of a network that some of these people have lived in the country for many years, but do in fact, speak little to no English. That is ridiculous and wholly unacceptable, besides, it doesn't help the local native community or the immigrant one. So if this is already an issue and it's already dividing society, then - why would anyone want to see it continued at an alarming rate? Myself and many others who voted for Brexit (well represented on this forum) are simply for the equitable and controlled immigration of people from every nation on earth. That's it. Seems to be common sense too, but yet many are opposed to it. I find it mind-boggling. 

I am an immigrant,you can argue all you like that Brexit is not based on anti-immigration and of course it's not the only reason for Brexit but it was the driving force as it is the driving force behind the resurfacing of the right in Europe and with Trumps Pro white power in the US.I will not fall for your argument, Brexit is basically a racist movement and twisting it to say that remainers are tarred with the same brush for calling brexiteers out won't wash.Like I have said before we will have to agree to disagree.peace.

That's my point,its ok the brexiteers can have a pop at me it's no skin of my nose I just find it strange that the stats say EU immigrants? down, non EU up at 14 year high and typically they blame the messenger,like I say you couldn't make it up.

Tacit admission that my conclusion about you caring about where immigrants come from, that alexrich tried to deny on your behalf, was indeed correct.

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21 minutes ago, vogie said:

Et tu tebee. You are making democracy what you want it to be and not exactly what it is. How in heavens name can you have a democratic vote and then not act on it, you are in actually fact trying to overturn democracy.

Because we were told it was an advisory referendum.

 

Post fact you can change that and insist the result must be adhered to.