UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[nanglong218]

28 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

There's nothing outside London except an endless sea of grumpiness. Brexit just put it on steroids. To be avoided mostly.

So build a wall N-S, E-W from Watford.  My wages stalled in 2004 after the estimated 30,000 immigrants became 100s of thousands. I was lucky,, family ticket to Australia. I earned twice my UK money.  My government did nothing for me.  

[rixalex]

It is blatantly obvious that the UK cannot fund both brexit and the essential services. I am not putting words in your mouth, anyone who supports brexit is effectively making that a priority over essential services. Apart from health services that are being starved of funding the police are now claiming to be in serious trouble.
Its a fairly simple question, should the government's priority be to pay the huge administrative cost of brexit or try and keep the nation healthy and safe.
 

The Home Office is in the dark about whether cash-starved police forces are in danger of running out of money, a damning report warns today.

Auditors raise the alarm about the impact of eight years of austerity, warning forces are “experiencing financial strain and struggling to deliver effective services to the public”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/police-funding-uk-austerity-home-office-forces-nao-finance-a8531666.html

 
 

It's only blatantly obvious to remainers that essential services and Brexit can't possibly both be funded at the same time, because remainers have been desperately looking for a way out of following through on a fair and decisive democratic process; in short, overturning it, but in such a way that they feel like they get to take the moral high ground.

What better a vehicle for their purposes than something emotive like essential services. Just the latest instalment of project fear. Supporting Brexit = supporting the entire collapse of emergency services, hospitals, schools, social services, community centres etc. Hyperbolic hogwash.



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[bristolboy]

10 minutes ago, rixalex said:

It's only blatantly obvious to remainers that essential services and Brexit can't possibly both be funded at the same time, because remainers have been desperately looking for a way out of following through on a fair and decisive democratic process; in short, overturning it, but in such a way that they feel like they get to take the moral high ground.

What better a vehicle for their purposes than something emotive like essential services. Just the latest instalment of project fear. Supporting Brexit = supporting the entire collapse of emergency services, hospitals, schools, social services, community centres etc. Hyperbolic hogwash.



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Uh-huh. Baseless accusations. They're going to cut taxes and give more funding to the NHS.

Boris Johnson calls for tax cuts as allies complain of 'smear campaign' amid revelations

BORIS Johnson has fuelled fresh speculation about his leadership ambitions after issuing a series of tax cut proposals designed to appeal directly to Tory voters.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1015335/boris-johnson-private-life-divorce-marina-wheeler-carrie-symonds

 

Jacob Rees-Mogg says Boris Johnson should be next PM and says he would negotiate better Brexit deal than Theresa May’s Chequers ‘muddle’

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7184232/jacob-rees-mogg-says-boris-johnson-should-be-next-pm-and-says-he-would-negotiate-better-brexit-deal-than-theresa-mays-chequers-muddle/

[melvinmelvin]

30 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Uh-huh. Baseless accusations. They're going to cut taxes and give more funding to the NHS.

Boris Johnson calls for tax cuts as allies complain of 'smear campaign' amid revelations

BORIS Johnson has fuelled fresh speculation about his leadership ambitions after issuing a series of tax cut proposals designed to appeal directly to Tory voters.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1015335/boris-johnson-private-life-divorce-marina-wheeler-carrie-symonds

 

Jacob Rees-Mogg says Boris Johnson should be next PM and says he would negotiate better Brexit deal than Theresa May’s Chequers ‘muddle’

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7184232/jacob-rees-mogg-says-boris-johnson-should-be-next-pm-and-says-he-would-negotiate-better-brexit-deal-than-theresa-mays-chequers-muddle/

 

 

, bj-pm and retro-mug minister of foreign affairs? what a circus

[tebee]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

Brexit is a condition preferred by the majority of the people as confirmed by the referendum result. It is obviously not a condition that was preferred or even anticipated by the previous government and which is also evidently not preferred by this government either. Austerity was a measure to combat debt, which was the main driver of the financial crisis and I think that it was a necessary evil. Austerity measures were taken directly after the financial crisis and before the referendum was even a real possibility, so of course it is a separate issue.

But the Brexit that was promised in the referendum was painless and beneficial. All the the versions now on offer promise varying degrees of pain and will wreck the economy to a greater or lesser degree.

 

What was promised is not deliverable - I think the public at large deserves a refund ! 

[aright]

11 minutes ago, tebee said:

But the Brexit that was promised in the referendum was painless and beneficial. All the the versions now on offer promise varying degrees of pain and will wreck the economy to a greater or lesser degree.

 

What was promised is not deliverable - I think the public at large deserves a refund ! 

You mean like establishing a currency which benefits only one country in the eurozone. When, do you reckon,  Greece, Italy, Portugal etc. will get their refund?

[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

You mean like establishing a currency which benefits only one country in the eurozone. When, do you reckon,  Greece, Italy, Portugal etc. will get their refund?

So the UK is leaving the EU because the Eurozone is unfair to Greece, Italy and Portugal?

[baboon]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Uh-huh. Baseless accusations. They're going to cut taxes and give more funding to the NHS.

Boris Johnson calls for tax cuts as allies complain of 'smear campaign' amid revelations

BORIS Johnson has fuelled fresh speculation about his leadership ambitions after issuing a series of tax cut proposals designed to appeal directly to Tory voters.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1015335/boris-johnson-private-life-divorce-marina-wheeler-carrie-symonds

 

Jacob Rees-Mogg says Boris Johnson should be next PM and says he would negotiate better Brexit deal than Theresa May’s Chequers ‘muddle’

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7184232/jacob-rees-mogg-says-boris-johnson-should-be-next-pm-and-says-he-would-negotiate-better-brexit-deal-than-theresa-mays-chequers-muddle/

What, before March next year? <deleted>. And by Johnson, who promptly fled after the referendum when he realised he was on the winning side? Jesus Christ.

Brexiteers! The EU has many, many faults. But can't you see that these snollygosters are leading you down a bad road. You will suffer and take casualties along the way but your saviours won't. Please, think!

[aright]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

So the UK is leaving the EU because the Eurozone is unfair to Greece, Italy and Portugal?

You would have to be simple to conclude that from what I said.

I have given up on you. You have accused Rixalex of baseless accusations ……..   you would know all about them. Yesterday you accused me of being the sole Brexiteer who doesn't blame the EU bureaucracy for stifling the UK economy. I asked you to name the Leavers on TV or in the public eye who are complaining...…..I am still waiting .

I can't be dealing with people whose level of debate is asserting things that weren't said and whose answers are only confined to asking questions. It's all too Bedminster for me.

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

But the Brexit that was promised in the referendum was painless and beneficial. All the the versions now on offer promise varying degrees of pain and will wreck the economy to a greater or lesser degree.

 

What was promised is not deliverable - I think the public at large deserves a refund ! 

 

hold on,

did Cameron offer a painless and beneficial Brexit?

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

31 minutes ago, baboon said:

What, before March next year? <deleted>. And by Johnson, who promptly fled after the referendum when he realised he was on the winning side? Jesus Christ.

Brexiteers! The EU has many, many faults. But can't you see that these snollygosters are leading you down a bad road. You will suffer and take casualties along the way but your saviours won't. Please, think!

 

yes, can see that

the worst one being retro-mug, that man is sinister and will never do any good for the UK society

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, aright said:

You mean like establishing a currency which benefits only one country in the eurozone. When, do you reckon,  Greece, Italy, Portugal etc. will get their refund?

Nice one, Cyril!

[nauseus]

37 minutes ago, aright said:

You would have to be simple to conclude that from what I said.

I have given up on you. You have accused Rixalex of baseless accusations ……..   you would know all about them. Yesterday you accused me of being the sole Brexiteer who doesn't blame the EU bureaucracy for stifling the UK economy. I asked you to name the Leavers on TV or in the public eye who are complaining...…..I am still waiting .

I can't be dealing with people whose level of debate is asserting things that weren't said and whose answers are only confined to asking questions. It's all too Bedminster for me.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

But the Brexit that was promised in the referendum was painless and beneficial. All the the versions now on offer promise varying degrees of pain and will wreck the economy to a greater or lesser degree.

 

What was promised is not deliverable - I think the public at large deserves a refund ! 

You need to check the definition of "promise" and then post a few promising links.

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

yes, can see that

the worst one being retro-mug, that man is sinister and will never do any good for the UK society

Johnson and Rees-Mogg Vs Corbyn and McDonnell. Now readers should understand why the centre holds.

[tebee]

6 hours ago, nauseus said:

You need to check the definition of "promise" and then post a few promising links.

 

So you're telling me that if the leave side had said in the run up to the referendum that you can have Brexit but most of you are going to be poorer after, foods going to be more expensive, there will be fewer NHS staff  and a good number of you will lose your jobs half the country would still have voted for them?

 

[tebee]

6 hours ago, nauseus said:

You need to check the definition of "promise" and then post a few promising links.

 

[tebee]

6 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

NHS reality in the run up to brexit - it will be even worse if we do leave 

 

NHS vacancies a 'national emergency'

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45485814

 

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/press/press-releases/kings-fund-responds-nhs-provider-performance

[Grouse]

16 hours ago, Srikcir said:

Although the UK Parliament does not use MMP, Scotland and Wales use MMP in their devolved parliaments.

Worldwise, so does New Zealand, Sri Lanka, Germany, and Bolivia among other nations.

In a non-binding plebiscite between 27 October and 7 November 2016, Prince Edward Islanders voted for MMP over FPTP

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-member_proportional_representation#Thailand

MMP seems to be desirable and/or working for some nations.

Looks like there are many systems with advantages and disadvantages. Goodness knows which would be best for UK. Current system doesn't work for me.

 

As is so often the case, the Germans will have thoroughly investigate this so MMP may be the way to go. What system was proposed when this was voted on during the Con / Lib Dem partnership ( was it an actual coalition?)

Edited September 12, 2018 by Grouse

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, baboon said:

What, before March next year? <deleted>. And by Johnson, who promptly fled after the referendum when he realised he was on the winning side? Jesus Christ.

Brexiteers! The EU has many, many faults. But can't you see that these snollygosters are leading you down a bad road. You will suffer and take casualties along the way but your saviours won't. Please, think!

Snollygoster is a great word! Schnelle geister? Spot on!

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, baboon said:

What, before March next year? <deleted>. And by Johnson, who promptly fled after the referendum when he realised he was on the winning side? Jesus Christ.

Brexiteers! The EU has many, many faults. But can't you see that these snollygosters are leading you down a bad road. You will suffer and take casualties along the way but your saviours won't. Please, think!

Snollygoster is a great word! Schnelle geister? Spot on!

 

Sorry, double post. Ghost in the machine....

Edited September 12, 2018 by Grouse

[bristolboy]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

NHS reality in the run up to brexit - it will be even worse if we do leave 

 

NHS vacancies a 'national emergency'

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45485814

 

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/press/press-releases/kings-fund-responds-nhs-provider-performance

Your problem is you believe what those lefties are saying about further big tax cuts coming down the pike. And those lefites'' problem is that they believe BJ and JRM, It's not like the Tories slashed taxes before at the expense of the social safety net...oh wait.

[rixalex]

But the Brexit that was promised in the referendum was painless and beneficial. All the the versions now on offer promise varying degrees of pain and will wreck the economy to a greater or lesser degree.
 
What was promised is not deliverable - I think the public at large deserves a refund ! 

Who promised it would be painless and beneficial? Be specific.

All the Brexiteers I can recall, when being asked about pain of leaving, accepted that there might be some in the transition period and also acknowledged that the potential benefits of Brexit would take time to be realised.

I think you should give the voting public the benefit of a bit more intelligence than you are. You don't need a degree in economics to be aware that breaking away from the EU, with all the trade agreements involved, would have an impact. How much of an impact? We didn't know before the referendum and we still don't two years post referendum. Having uncertainty like that isn't ideal I agree, but the thing about heading in a new direction is that by nature, it involves unknowns. You either accept that or you close your mind to ever doing something different.

One thing I do know that WAS promised was that the referendum was a once in a generation opportunity and that the will of the people would be respected.

That promise being ignored by politicians doesn't seem to bother you. Funny that, as in the case of other promises; promises i suspect were never actually made, you seem quite a stickler.

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[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Looks like there are many systems with advantages and disadvantages. Goodness knows which would be best for UK. Current system doesn't work for me.

 

As is so often the case, the Germans will have thoroughly investigate this so MMP may be the way to go. What system was proposed when this was voted on during the Con / Lib Dem partnership ( was it an actual coalition?)

looking at various systems and their pros/cons is starting in the wrong end

 

find out what you  want to achieve - set priorities for fundamental elements in system

 

compose your constituencies and allocate seats to them

(this will be a tough one in UK)

 

look for a system that may suit your needs

tune it (tresholds-adjustment seats etc) to your taste

 

[bristolboy]

58 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Who promised it would be painless and beneficial? Be specific.

All the Brexiteers I can recall, when being asked about pain of leaving, accepted that there might be some in the transition period and also acknowledged that the potential benefits of Brexit would take time to be realised.

I think you should give the voting public the benefit of a bit more intelligence than you are. You don't need a degree in economics to be aware that breaking away from the EU, with all the trade agreements involved, would have an impact. How much of an impact? We didn't know before the referendum and we still don't two years post referendum. Having uncertainty like that isn't ideal I agree, but the thing about heading in a new direction is that by nature, it involves unknowns. You either accept that or you close your mind to ever doing something different.

One thing I do know that WAS promised was that the referendum was a once in a generation opportunity and that the will of the people would be respected.

That promise being ignored by politicians doesn't seem to bother you. Funny that, as in the case of other promises; promises i suspect were never actually made, you seem quite a stickler.

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Just 11 Times Leave Campaigners Said That Brexit Would Be Easy

 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/nobody-said-it-was-easy

[sandyf]

11 hours ago, rixalex said:

It's only blatantly obvious to remainers that essential services and Brexit can't possibly both be funded at the same time, because remainers have been desperately looking for a way out of following through on a fair and decisive democratic process; in short, overturning it, but in such a way that they feel like they get to take the moral high ground.

What better a vehicle for their purposes than something emotive like essential services. Just the latest instalment of project fear. Supporting Brexit = supporting the entire collapse of emergency services, hospitals, schools, social services, community centres etc. Hyperbolic hogwash.



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You are perfectly free to believe that the essential services have been adequately funded, despite the numerous reports to the contrary. Take it you did not watch the Cressida Dick speech, 'disappointed' that the government refused to implement the pay review body recommendations. She has had it introduce measures to try and stop people leaving and entice those recently left to come back. Twice during the speech she emphasised the force needed resources and support, a speech that you want to promote as project fear. 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

On 9/7/2018 at 2:29 PM, oilinki said:

This is just an example of agreements which must be negotiated between the two parties. Therefore Brexit can never be "We'll just walk away" deal. 

 

Now, who has the upper hand on these negotiations? UK or EU?

Well, that is VERY debateable, on balance, I know who I'd say does.... and wouldn't be those pompous bureaucrats in Brussels/Strasbourg, as much as deluded types like themselves (or yourself) would like to think it is. ? Huge trade deficit anyone? Remind me, who is the biggest and most important market for that sickly, stagnating forced-together cluster-<deleted> of an economy ? Oh yes, that's right. The United Kingdom ? 

Edited September 12, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

Who promised it would be painless and beneficial? Be specific.

All the Brexiteers I can recall, when being asked about pain of leaving, accepted that there might be some in the transition period and also acknowledged that the potential benefits of Brexit would take time to be realised.

I think you should give the voting public the benefit of a bit more intelligence than you are. You don't need a degree in economics to be aware that breaking away from the EU, with all the trade agreements involved, would have an impact. How much of an impact? We didn't know before the referendum and we still don't two years post referendum. Having uncertainty like that isn't ideal I agree, but the thing about heading in a new direction is that by nature, it involves unknowns. You either accept that or you close your mind to ever doing something different.

One thing I do know that WAS promised was that the referendum was a once in a generation opportunity and that the will of the people would be respected.

That promise being ignored by politicians doesn't seem to bother you. Funny that, as in the case of other promises; promises i suspect were never actually made, you seem quite a stickler.

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And here's something rather more recent:

Brexiters say 'nothing to fear' about crashing out of EU with no deal

Leading Brexiters have pushed back at claims that their campaign to “chuck Chequers” is going off the rails as they endorsed an alternative proposal that would result in the UK crashing out of the European Union without a deal.

Jacob Rees-Mogg, the chair of the pro-Brexit European Research Group, said there was “nothing to fear” from a no-deal scenario after the pro-Brexit economist Patrick Minford claimed it could boost Treasury revenues by £80m a year.

Mogg said, however, that he would prefer the government to strike a Canada plus-style free-trade deal with Brussels to retain the benefits of leaving on “the most friendly terms we can manage”.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/11/brexiters-jacob-rees-mogg-no-deal-chuck-chequers

[rixalex]

You are perfectly free to believe that the essential services have been adequately funded, despite the numerous reports to the contrary. Take it you did not watch the Cressida Dick speech, 'disappointed' that the government refused to implement the pay review body recommendations. She has had it introduce measures to try and stop people leaving and entice those recently left to come back. Twice during the speech she emphasised the force needed resources and support, a speech that you want to promote as project fear. 

You are making a straw man argument again. Never have I said that essential services were being adequately funded. They aren't.

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[nauseus]

11 hours ago, bristolboy said:

So the UK is leaving the EU because the Eurozone is unfair to Greece, Italy and Portugal?

Indirectly, actually yes, that's part of it. Good thinking.